Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Deborski

I'd like to add that so far no openly gay people have joined in on this thread either, but so what?

*sniffle* If anyone wants me, I'll be over here with the rest of the chopped liver...

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

*sniffle* If anyone wants me, I'll be over here with the rest of the chopped liver...

I'm sorry Throbert! I had no idea! It's not as if you are all decked out in rainbows and waving a giant flaming dildo in our faces ))))



I apologize for my assumption.

It just goes to show how wrong stereotypes really are!

Originally Posted by Deborski

I empathize with you that your heart was broken. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. But I disagree with your analogy that being gay is like a "temptation" or an "addiction" for chocolates or alcohol. People are born gay. It isn't something they can shake off. They are either gay, or they are not gay. And in my experience, forcing gay people into the closet, forcing them to lie about who they are in the first place, is what creates situations like the one you are describing! Why did this man try to pretend he was straight in the first place? If he lived in a society where he could freely be gay, he would have never dated you and he would never have broken your heart!

And I do not mean this as an attack on you, but when you say that being gay is a "vice" like addiction or a bad habit, you are judging! Personally, I do not care if people are gay or not. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. I am glad to know they are gay up front though, because then there are no guessing games and no one is lied to or hurt. To me, being gay is like being black or being white. It is what it is. A black person can't change the color of his skin, even in a society where being black means that he is discriminated against. And gay people can't change the fact that they are gay. Sure, they can be celibate, as Throbert suggested, but why should they have to? Why can't they be allowed to love and marry and enjoy all the same rights as heterosexual people have?

I do not support outlandish expressions of a pornographic nature, whether they are gay or straight. I could fully understand if Russia made laws against pornography in public, or showing pornography to kids. If the gay pride parades contained too much pornography, it would have been easy enough to just outlaw the porn. But why also outlaw rainbow flags? It makes no sense to me.

I'm not telling Russians how to run their country. I very much doubt that these laws will change. But at the same time, I am afraid - as a foreigner - to travel to Russia right now. I don't want to be accused of spreading "propaganda" if I happen to mention that my husband's uncle is gay, or if I wear rainbow earrings or something. So sure, Russia can keep its laws as is Russia's right as a sovereign country, but to expect that there will be no international reaction to that is naive.

He was Catholic, English and as posh as they come. It's a fatal mix for messed up sexuality. If it's not one thing it's another, as many poor women in this country have discovered... Public schools (meaning traditional English boarding schools) have a lot to answer for. In retrospect I can see that his sexuality was messed up and there is more to this story than my brief summary. I know why he acted the way he did. He loved me and he wanted a wife - that bit was genuine. We were a perfect couple in all other ways, complemented each other, had fun and a connection I never felt with anyone else. He was not fully gay, obviously... He didn't think I needed to know and didn't expect it to be an issue. Arrogant, but that's how it goes sometimes. Unfortunately he broke the computer and I ended up fixing it. You can work the rest out - did not set out to spy on him. Had that not happened I would be married to him today and might be none the wiser, as I am not the suspicious type... To his credit he was completely honest and up front when I confronted him, and full of regrets/ Although I was prepared to give him a second chance, there was an upper limit and the thoughts of this were extremely offputting.

On the flag thing: I have no problem whatever if a pub discreetly signals that it's gay by a small rainbow flag - as a pub near my house. There is no need for anyone else to go in there.

But I object that I had to travel to work in a gay-flagged bus last year! That's taking it too far. I happen to be Christian and although I think Christ would have had compassion with gays I don't want to support homosexuality either. Sitting in a gay flagged bus is forcing me to take part of a manifestation that I don't support.

I also object that this issue has totally hi-jacked the political parties on the left: Socialists, Communists (particularly) and Greens are obsessing over this issue at the expense of really important issues, like social welfare disappearing, public companies being sold out and much more. It only concerns a small minority, while selling out state housing affects half the population. While these parties are trying to prove their pro-gay credentials the country is being taken over by big business. The 1st May parade, from what I saw in Sweden last year was half Pride parade and this darn debate took up half the room of the traditional and extremely urgent issues.
It seems to me like this issue is a Trojan horse and deliberately blown out of all proportions.

BTW - have you noticed that all our Russian friends have dropped out of this discussion? I think there is a big cultural gap here.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Up to a point, I can take it. I'm a tough girl after being a TV reporter for all those years... but dealing with all the anger and hate and judgement gets to even me after a while, and so I can't imagine how it would feel if I were gay. If I were gay, I doubt I would mention it here at all.

Well, you know I like you and Lampada a lot. None of us have extreme views on this. We just happen to be on different sides of the absolute centre, so to speak.... We are arguing nicely, so there is no issue.

I've had too much of gay stuff coming my way lately and I thought Russia's law was refreshing. But the minute somebody starting giving gay people grief for a situation they can't control, I'd be completely against it. Particularly if using the law to do it. Saudi, Iran etc. Not my business, but I feel sorry for gay people there. The Nazis punished people for simply being gay.

I'm just saying, don't force this on regular people either, in the form of the kind of exaggerated agenda I was describing that I experienced in Sweden. I think Russians became aware that this was going on in some European countries and thought "no thanks". Edinaya Rossia picked up on it as an easy win with most of the population.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Would publicly stating that the law is wrong be an act of "propaganda"? If so, I would expect it is asking too much of people to come out and say they oppose it. However, some of my friends in Russia have told me privately that they think the laws go too far.

The law had nothing to do with what you say online - it's obvious they just want to curb the excesses of the gay movement in Europe and the USA. Do you think that the Russians believe that someone will come knocking on the door because they wrote on MasterRussian that the law is bad? As far as I can see Russians are bitching away with insane conspiracy theories and insults on politicians on blogs etc. Not to mention radical islamic, left wing and nazi sites. This seems to be going on uncurbed. Much worse stuff than complaining about a silly law. Besides, they don't have NSA and certainly not the manpower even if somebody cared.

Hanna The law had nothing to do with what you say online - it's obvious they just want to curb the excesses of the gay movement in Europe and the USA. Do you think that the Russians believe that someone will come knocking on the door because they wrote on MasterRussian that the law is bad? As far as I can see Russians are bitching away with insane conspiracy theories and insults on politicians on blogs etc. Not to mention radical islamic, left wing and nazi sites. This seems to be going on uncurbed. Much worse stuff than complaining about a silly law. Besides, they don't have NSA and certainly not the manpower even if somebody cared.

It isn't that I think the government would come knocking at anyone's door over things they said online. It's other kinds of social reprisals I am talking about. I've already experienced a few attacks right here at MR for saying the same things I am saying on this thread. A few other people appear to be "shunning" me because of my opinions here, apparently forgetting that I do not talk about gays every hour at the day. I've chatted with some of the people on this site for almost two years now, and I hope that by now they know me well enough that they understand, that just because I am speaking my mind here on this thread, does not mean I am going to talk about gay rights in every other conversation we have. I get that many Russians will not agree with me. It's a forgone conclusion, really.

Fortunately I don't live in Russia, so I don't have to worry about my employer seeing what I say on Facebook, for example, and firing me the next day. I worry that I would get in trouble if I went to live in Russia again, and I am not even gay, I just have gay friends who I openly support. I can only imagine what it would be like to be gay living there! I would have to hide everything about myself and pretend to be straight, or I would be ostracized by the community, and possibly worse. As I've said before, it isn't just the law - with all of its ambiguous wording - which concerns me, it's the growing numbers of neo-Nazis and skinheads and religious fanatics who beat gay people up, attack them, humiliate them, torture them, etc. And maybe the law charges some of them, but it certainly doesn't charge all of them. There is definitely a prevalent attitude that gay people are just "getting what they deserve." I have even heard that attitude expressed right here at MR.

I think the law is just the tip of the iceberg really. As for myself, maybe it's because I am no longer involved with christian religion (I once was, in fact my uncle was a famous Televangelist in the US back in the 1970's - and that is a whole other long story), but I don't really see gay people "taking over." Sure there are a few movies with gay actors, there are some TV shows about gay people, there are gay pride parades on so on, but it doesn't really bother me. I can take it, or leave it. I like "Project Runway" for example, because it's a show about fashion and I love designing my own clothing. The fashion industry has a lot of gay people in it though, and so "Project Runway" can come across as very "gay." It doesn't really bother me. On the other hand, I am not watching gay porn on TV because it just doesn't interest me! I watched "Brokeback Mountain" and thought it was a good movie, but I don't especially need to watch it again.

I certainly see many more "manifestations" of religion, living here in the US. Within a five mile radius of my home there are at least ten churches! Ten! And yet the right wing christian community claims all the time that it is being "persecuted" by the "liberals" and their "gay agenda." I think what they mean by being persecuted, is that they do not have the authority to shut people up. It isn't as though their churches are all being shut down, and christians are being shot on site. It's the other way around really. Admit you are gay, or atheist, or just a non-believer, and you can expect a great deal of persecution here in the states... people will ostracize you, judge you, stab you in the back. My last workplace was 90% christian. When people found out I was not a christian, they made my life difficult.

Hanna: Well, you know I like you and Lampada a lot. None of us have extreme views on this. We just happen to be on different sides of the absolute centre, so to speak.... We are arguing nicely, so there is no issue.

And I like you as well! We do not have to agree on this one subject. I am sure there are many other subjects which we would agree on. This is just one issue. It's a big issue, but it too, will pass.

Part of the reason gays seem like they are so prominent in media right now is because they are still in the process of gaining equality, even in western societies.

Of course they are. Where non-mixed pair competitions for figure skaters? Where men's competitions in Rhythmic gymnastics?

Why Western World keeps silence? Already in process of inventing proper costumes I guess?

As far as I remember, deputy Milonov from St Petersburg was among early proponents of anti-"gay propaganda" laws in Russia.
Many people ridiculed him on the Internet:





В этом городе-герое Ленинграде, Ленинграде
Из окна летят помои и бомжи в парадке гадят
А еще мы стадиона года ждем уже четыре
Говорят, что виноваты голубые

Из-за них недоедаем, из-за них болеют дети,
Мало Пушкина читаем - так написано в газете
Но защитник благородный есть на страже у морали
Победит кого угодно Виталий

Припев:
Милонов борется с геями - борется с гея...
Милонов борется с геями - борется!
Милонов борется с геями - борется с гея...
Милонов борется с геями - борется!

Было очень неспокойно на концерте у Мадонны
Говорят, что содомиты прорвались через кордоны
И плясали оголенно, не скрывая гениталий
Ах, хорошо, что в Ленинграде есть Виталий

Очень трудно нам, ребята, тяжело, друзья, живется
Даже в школьном амфитеатре про мужицкий секс поется
Даже радуга на небе намекает на плохое
А за ней еще и небо голубое!

Припев

Ты живи себе не парься, с мужиком не обнимайся
Моисеева не слушай - позабудь про revolution
Ты живи себе не парься, с мужиком не обнимайся
Моисеева не слушай - позабудь про revolution

Припев

Originally Posted by xdns

As far as I remember, deputy Milonov from St Petersburg was among early proponents of anti-"gay propaganda" laws in Russia.
Many people ridiculed him on the Internet:





В этом городе-герое Ленинграде, Ленинграде
Из окна летят помои и бомжи в парадке гадят
А еще мы стадиона года ждем уже четыре
Говорят, что виноваты голубые

Из-за них недоедаем, из-за них болеют дети,
Мало Пушкина читаем - так написано в газете
Но защитник благородный есть на страже у морали
Победит кого угодно Виталий

Припев:
Милонов борется с геями - борется с гея...
Милонов борется с геями - борется!
Милонов борется с геями - борется с гея...
Милонов борется с геями - борется!

Было очень неспокойно на концерте у Мадонны
Говорят, что содомиты прорвались через кордоны
И плясали оголенно, не скрывая гениталий
Ах, хорошо, что в Ленинграде есть Виталий

Очень трудно нам, ребята, тяжело, друзья, живется
Даже в школьном амфитеатре про мужицкий секс поется
Даже радуга на небе намекает на плохое
А за ней еще и небо голубое!

Припев

Ты живи себе не парься, с мужиком не обнимайся
Моисеева не слушай - позабудь про revolution
Ты живи себе не парься, с мужиком не обнимайся
Моисеева не слушай - позабудь про revolution

Припев

That's actually kinda funny... it sounds like it's making fun of the "gay propaganda laws" and making a statement that there are BIGGER ISSUES in Russia which people are being distracted from... to which I would agree. We have the same problem with different kinds of distractions in America too, which prevent us from discussing more important things. But certain populist issues will get people's patriotic fervor going and they will forget other problems real fast.

Can't help bringing this up: Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
I think this sarcastic piece perfectly summarises feelings of ordinary heterosexual person about gay parades

Originally Posted by xdns

Can't help bringing this up: Gay-Pride Parade Sets Mainstream Acceptance Of Gays Back 50 Years
I think this sarcastic piece perfectly summarises feelings of ordinary heterosexual person about gay parades

Actually, that article was hilarious!

The parade, organized by the Los Angeles Gay And Lesbian And Bisexual And Transvestite And Transgender Alliance (LAGALABATATA), was intended to "promote acceptance, tolerance, and equality for the city's gay community." Just the opposite, however, was accomplished, as the event confirmed the worst fears of thousands of non-gay spectators, cementing in their minds a debauched and distorted image of gay life straight out of the most virulent right-wing hate literature.

Hahaha.... oh that's so true. That's why so many gays and lesbians in the US are tired of all this "over the top" wackiness. I actually think it offends them more than heteros these days, which may explain why the pride parades I've been to are nothing like those described here. I've never seen giant phallus floats or people waving dildos... ever... our pride parades were just people, walking down the street, carrying rainbow flags. Of course, I do not live in Los Angeles!

Now, my opinion about recent anti-"gay propaganda" laws in my country:

I think that our MPs, probably, have nothing more important to do.
So they have to make up these rubbish laws which criminalize so called "gay propaganda", insults of "religious feelings" etc.
They even suggested a law to ban Russian mat on the Internet (I wouldn't be surprised if they approve that law too)!
It is nothing but bigotry and cheap moralism.
Opposition speakers nicknamed current Duma as a "mad printer" because of these non-agenda laws.

I'm not very fond of gay parades as a heterosexual (they are just not my type of parades ).
I'm sceptical about gay "marriage", because I think it steals some special "olde" feeling about marriage as a union of woman and man. I do, however, support civil unions for gays.
I'm undecided about adoptions by gay couples. I think that traditional couples should at least have priority in this matter - because child can't choose by himself and should be given a chance to end up with a traditional family first.

BUT these scum dressed in all those "God forbid" T-shirts who come to beat harmless campaigners should be put in jail! Our society should not tolerate violence.

Originally Posted by xdns

Now, my opinion about recent anti-"gay propaganda" laws in my country:

I think that our MPs, probably, have nothing more important to do.
So they have to make up these rubbish laws which criminalize so called "gay propaganda", insults of "religious feelings" etc.
They even suggested a law to ban Russian mat on the Internet (I wouldn't be surprised if they approve that law too)!
It is nothing but bigotry and cheap moralism.
Opposition speakers nicknamed current Duma as a "mad printer" because of these non-agenda laws.

I'm not very fond of gay parades as a heterosexual (they are just not my type of parades ).
I'm sceptical about gay "marriage", because I think it steals some special "olde" feeling about marriage as a union of woman and man. I do, however, support civil unions for gays.
I'm undecided about adoptions by gay couples. I think that traditional couples should at least have priority in this matter - because child can't choose by himself and should be given a chance to end up with a traditional family first.

BUT these scum dressed in all those "God forbid" T-shirts who come to beat harmless campaigners should be put in jail! Our society should not tolerate violence.

That about sums up my feelings too. The laws against "offending the sensibilities of religious people" especially bother me! But we have a large, very vocal, group of people in the US who would LOVE to have the same "cheap moralistic laws" here. (great expression by the way.) I was just reading yesterday how there are seven states which have laws against atheists serving the governments. Seven states with constitutions which basically say "any man may serve in a civil capacity - provided that he believe in the Almighty God." I wish I was kidding.

Originally Posted by xdns

I'm not very fond of gay parades as a heterosexual (they are just not my type of parades ).
I'm sceptical about gay "marriage", because I think it steals some special "olde" feeling about marriage as a union of woman and man. I do, however, support civil unions for gays.
I'm undecided about adoptions by gay couples. I think that traditional couples should at least have priority in this matter - because child can't choose by himself and should be given a chance to end up with a traditional family first.

Hmmm, I'm "queer as a three-dollar-bill" and I agree with you on all of these points. Although on the subject of gay parades, I will admit that the FIRST one I ever attended (just about 20 years ago, when I was in college) was very significant to me. And I think that a lot of other gay people would say that these parades can be valuable when you're just beginning the process of "выход из подполья". But after the novelty wears off, you start to realize: "Wow, this is kind of stupid."

Originally Posted by Deborski

That's why so many gays and lesbians in the US are tired of all this "over the top" wackiness. I actually think it offends them more than heteros these days, which may explain why the pride parades I've been to are nothing like those described here. I've never seen giant phallus floats or people waving dildos... ever... our pride parades were just people, walking down the street, carrying rainbow flags. Of course, I do not live in Los Angeles!

When I lived in NYC (1996-2003), I was surprised at how low-key and even "family friendly" the Brooklyn gay parade was compared with the BIG one in Manhattan, just a few miles away. Another thing to keep in mind about the really huge gay parades in some cities is that they are, to some degree, deliberate imitations of the "Carnavale" and "Mardi Gras" traditions:

"any man may serve in a civil capacity - provided that he believe in the Almighty God."

OMG! I will never visit Olympic games in America, then!

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

OMG! I will never visit Olympic games in America, then!

Oh relax, Max, we promise not to enforce our laws on foreigners

Originally Posted by Deborski

Oh relax, Max, we promise not to enforce our laws on foreigners

No-no-no, I know I will be fined, expelled, arrested, and then shot by a nasty policeman.

8 “Pastafarians” Detained in Moscow During Unsanctioned "Pasta Procession" | Russia | RIA Novosti

Looks like gays are not the only ones being persecuted by the Russian Orthodox Church...

From this article:

MOSCOW, August 17 (RIA Novosti) – A “pasta procession” by the Russian followers of the not-so-serious Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster was dispersed in Moscow on Saturday by riot police and Orthodox activists, the prankster movement said.

The Moscow police press service told RIA Novosti that eight “Pastafarians” were detained for "attempting to hold an unsanctioned rally."

Does anyone else agree that this is a ridiculous exercise of police power? And why do "Orthodox activists" feel like they must suppress every group that is not in lockstep with them? Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state?

Is simply having FUN "нелзя"?

Originally Posted by Deborski

8 “Pastafarians” Detained in Moscow During Unsanctioned "Pasta Procession" | Russia | RIA Novosti

Looks like gays are not the only ones being persecuted by the Russian Orthodox Church...

From this article:



Does anyone else agree that this is a ridiculous exercise of police power? And why do "Orthodox activists" feel like they must suppress every group that is not in lockstep with them? Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state?

Is simply having FUN "нелзя"?

The problem there is, the state has WAY TOO MUCH control over the people. Once it loses the excessive control, what Orthodox activists think will no longer matter.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state?

Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

Originally Posted by Deborski

And why do "Orthodox activists" feel like they must suppress every group that is not in lockstep with them?
...
Is simply having FUN "нелзя"?

There is a hidden issue here
Russian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster chose abbreviation РПЦ - Русская Пастафарианская Церковь, the same abbreviation which describes Russian Orthodox Church - Русская Православная Церковь
I do believe that abbreviation has been chosen specifically to mock Russian Orthodox church, alas Russian nationalists are also pro-Orthodox and they don't like being mocked

Originally Posted by Doomer

Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

There is a hidden issue here
Russian Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster chose abbreviation РПЦ - Русская Пастафарианская Церковь, the same abbreviation which describes Russian Orthodox Church - Русская Православная Церковь
I do believe that abbreviation has been chosen specifically to mock Russian Orthodox church, alas Russian nationalists are also pro-Orthodox and they don't like being mocked

But even if they are mocking the ROC, so what? As long as they are not vandalizing church property (as Pussy Riot did and was harshly sentenced for!) why should it matter what people say? Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?