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Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

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    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

    I've just run into this "epic" suggestion. What the f**k is going on in this man's head?

    the "epic" suggestion

    There is a good Russian idiom about such things - раздувать из мухи слона, which corresponds to the English phrase - blow out of proportion. At least that's my take
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    I've just run into this "epic" suggestion. What the f**k is going on in this man's head?

    the "epic" suggestion

    There is a good Russian idiom about such things - раздувать из мухи слона, which corresponds to the English phrase - blow out of proportion. At least that's my take
    Why is it out of proportion? The Russian government passed laws essentially turning a certain class of people into criminals. Some people feel that boycotting the Olympics is a worthwhile step to express their disapproval.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Douglas View Post
    Why is it out of proportion? The Russian government passed laws essentially turning a certain class of people into criminals. Some people feel that boycotting the Olympics is a worthwhile step to express their disapproval.
    And how does it turn them to criminals? Did you ever read what is this law about? It prohibits homosexualism propaganda to underage (under their 18 ) persons.

    It is nowhere written in the law that being a homosexual is a crime!

    I would say that any sexual propaganda (not only homosexual) to children is unappropriate, agree?
    Moreover, any public discussion of someone's intimate relations is something ...hm... embarrassing. There are things which are generally not for publicity in the civilized society.
    Let everyone do what they want privately. Why even to talk about that? I have never heard anyone in my country to ask another person about their ...hm... sexual orientation.

    The US and the UK do have laws prosecuting the so-called "indecent exposure". If someone decides to walk naked through a crowded street in NYC, what would happen? They are going to be arrested by the police, isn't it? But it does not mean that just having ...hm... some intimate parts of body is a crime. The crime is exposing them, right? Especially, when there are underage children around.
    Many people feel discussing someone's sexual preferences publically is as shameful and shocking as walking naked in the town.

    And now imagine the situation. A man from e.g. Mumba-Yumba tribe from Central Africa (just jokingly) came to the U.S. and walked completely naked exposing his ... you know what. Because in his tribe it is considered normal to walk naked so that everyone could see the shape of his private parts. Quite logically, he was arrested in the U.S. for exposing his ... And after that the tribe leader starts accusing the U.S. government for discrimination of people who have a p..is. Sorry for that. But the whole situation around the anti-gay-propaganda law is very similar.
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    Sorry I don't agree with you.

    If you're against any sexual propaganda targeting minors, then why have a law specifically targeting homosexual propaganda? The only reason is to single out homosexuals as a group for discriminatory treatment.

    Secondly, pretty much every show on TV, every song on the radio, every movie involves people talking about their sexual preferences. Nobody considers it shameful when a man says "this is my girlfriend and I want to marry her" but if he says "this is my boyfriend and I want to marry him" why should that be shameful? And even if you do consider it shameful, why does that mean it should be a criminal act? Again, it's a discriminatory law, taking rights away from homosexuals.

    That's what people are objecting to, the fact that discriminates against a group of people and reduces their rights.
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    Я был в Москве в 2007м году, когда многие в западном прессе упрекали правителство Москвы за то что не разрешили провести гей-прайд парад. Тогда я не очень симпатично относился к тем западным гей-активистам - хоть и сам я за равенство прав для геев, считал есть более актуалные проблемы в российском обществе, при этом Россия более консервативная страна США или Германия и не стоит осуждать за это, пытаться навязывать собственные взгляды.

    А вот теперь ситуация совсем другая - новый закон по-просту лишает гомосексуалистов их человеческих прав. Никто не говорит, чтобы россияне поменяли свои мнения по поводу геев. Они просто выступают против несправедливого закона.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Douglas View Post
    Я был в Москве в 2007м году, когда многие в западном прессе упрекали правителство Москвы за то что не разрешили провести гей-прайд парад. Тогда я не очень симпатично относился к тем западным гей-активистам - хоть и сам я за равенство прав для геев, считал есть более актуалные проблемы в российском обществе, при этом Россия более консервативная страна США или Германия и не стоит осуждать за это, пытаться навязывать собственные взгляды.

    А вот теперь ситуация совсем другая - новый закон по-просту лишает гомосексуалистов их человеческих прав. Никто не говорит, чтобы россияне поменяли свои мнения по поводу геев. Они просто выступают против несправедливого закона.
    правительство
    за то, что
    за то, что не было разрешено
    тогда я неодобрительно/ без симпатии относился к геям-активистам,
    хотя сам-то я и за равенство
    актуальные
    страна более консервативная, чем США
    не стоит осуждать её за это
    попросту
    россияне поменяли своё мнение

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    He may suggest to "ban" Olympics in Sochi but it's not going to happen - no country can provide better Olympics in such short time. That's why it's so easy to suggest it
    I don't hear any athletes suggesting this BS, because they know that Olympics is not about gays, it's about sport and competition. Nobody suggested to ban Olympics 1980 in Moscow but being gay was punishable by law that time.

    When actors go to politics that's what happen, I would simply ignore him.

    All that gay hysteria is kinda tiring already
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    And even if you do consider it shameful
    Yes, I do. Funny, and still shameful.

    why does that mean it should be a criminal act
    It doesn't.
    "Это можно." (тов.Дынин)

    If there's a lot of disgraceful things and authorities take measures to remove some of them, why is it bad idea?
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Doomer is incorrect (as usual) There is a movement to transfer the Olympics to Vancouver. It would be a good thing as the province of BC could add to their debt.

    But, I am still awaiting an answer to my previous question. Actually, I have two. 1) Why isn't anyone mentioning the propaganda that Russia has on its state TV? I have made the argument and point that there is 'Western style' propaganda on their TV programs. If there isn't anyone gay on some of these shows, coulda fooled me. There's mixed messages in Russia and this is just one example. Actually, Russians, themselves, should be using this in their defence. 'Hey, look at these programs.... we copy the West.' (except say it in Russian).

    The other question (2) is why aren't these Westerners protesting the Middle Eastern countries, Iran, Israel etc. These countries sure aren't 'gay-friendly.' But, everyone is attacking Russia...because, coincidentally, they happen to be hosting the Olympics? I doubt that is the reason. It is just easier to criticize them. So much hypocrisy, so little time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    The other question (2) is why aren't these Westerners protesting the Middle Eastern countries, Iran, Israel etc. These countries sure aren't 'gay-friendly.' But, everyone is attacking Russia...because, coincidentally, they happen to be hosting the Olympics? I doubt that is the reason. It is just easier to criticize them. So much hypocrisy, so little time.
    That is what I agree with
    I do not claim that my opinion is absolutely true.
    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxmixiv View Post
    Yes, I do. Funny, and still shameful.

    It doesn't.
    "Это можно." (тов.Дынин)

    If there's a lot of disgraceful things and authorities take measures to remove some of them, why is it bad idea?
    Because it's not the role of the government to define what's disgraceful and what isn't. Everyone has the right to define for themselves what they consider to be a correct way to live. As long as they're not harming anyone else, the government should not intervene.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    That is what I agree with
    You can drop Israel from the list: First Official Gay Price March In Israel Sees 600 People - YouTube *Pride


    Published on Jun 30, 2013

    "Hundreds of Israelis took to the streets on Friday to take part in the first ever official gay pride march in Ashdod in southern Israel.

    More than 600 people marched together in the port city, which has a large religious population. 2000 people had been expected to march in the pride parade in Israel's fifth-largest city.

    At the same time, some 500 people took part in the annual gay pride march in the northern city of Haifa.

    Earlier in June, over 100,000 people took part in Tel Aviv's yearly gay pride event, which in recent years has become a well-known event throughout the world, attracting hundreds of tourists. Jerusalem also holds an annual gay pride event."
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Douglas View Post
    Because it's not the role of the government to define what's disgraceful and what isn't. Everyone has the right to define for themselves what they consider to be a correct way to live. As long as they're not harming anyone else, the government should not intervene.
    A disputable statement. The key words are "As long as they're not harming anyone else". Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But what is "to harm someone"? Physically? Or morally, too?
    If someone prefers walking naked, is he harming anyone else? Why does the government put restricitions on this kind of behavior?
    Does saying to a child "Oh, boy! You know, being a gay is so cool! There is nothing abnormal in it. Two men can love each other, live together and make a family. Why not to try? The traditional family is outdated" harm the child's psychology?
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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман View Post
    A disputable statement. The key words are "As long as they're not harming anyone else". Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But what is "to harm someone"? Physically? Or morally, too?
    If someone prefers walking naked, is he harming anyone else? Why does the government put restricitions on this kind of behavior?
    Does saying to a child "Oh, boy! You know, being a gay is so cool! There is nothing abnormal in it. Two men can love each other, live together and make a family. Why not to try? The traditional family is outdated" harm the child's psychology?
    You are assuming here, double guessing about children in general. But what about real victims here? Gay children it is. It's a tragedy for them.
    No reply necessary, it's o.k., I do not expect you or anybody else to change their minds.
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    But, everyone is attacking Russia
    Yes, indeed, where were they during Olympics in China ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Doomer is incorrect (as usual) There is a movement to transfer the Olympics to Vancouver. It would be a good thing as the province of BC could add to their debt.
    Well, sure
    Olympics can be moved theoretically to some village or Vancouver, but in that case probably would be better to cancel them at all
    Sochi has the most advanced Winter Olympic stadiums/objects in the world by now (at least that's what athletes from around the world say)

    The thing is there were gay athletes all this time, and Olympics were hold in all the different countries with all the different laws and it didn't bother anybody. I don't see how these Olympics differ from the others


    Why not to ban Olympics in Sochi because Sochi is in Russia, thus athletes who don't speak Russian would have their "human right" to express their thoughts discriminated. Women don't have penises and men don't have vaginas that seems like another discrimination. That's the same kind of BS.

    If gays wouldn't exaggerate their actions to show that they are gays - it wouldn't bother other people
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomer View Post
    The thing is there were gay athletes all this time, and Olympics were hold in all the different countries with all the different laws and it didn't bother anybody. I don't see how these Olympics differ from the others
    And Mr Obama's concerns that gay athletes will be "discriminated" in Sochi seem completely meaningless and pointless. How will the Russian government discriminate them? There is no "sexual preferencies" field in Russian visa at all!
    Or are they going to come in order to tell Russian children how it is cool to be a gay, rather than to participate in competitions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман View Post
    A disputable statement. The key words are "As long as they're not harming anyone else". Yes, I'm inclined to agree. But what is "to harm someone"? Physically? Or morally, too?
    If someone prefers walking naked, is he harming anyone else? Why does the government put restricitions on this kind of behavior?
    Does saying to a child "Oh, boy! You know, being a gay is so cool! There is nothing abnormal in it. Two men can love each other, live together and make a family. Why not to try? The traditional family is outdated" harm the child's psychology?
    If an adult is encouraging a minor to have sex, that's a crime regardless of the gender of the people involved. Just talking about sexual matters in an appropriate way in order to educate, or giving your opinion on families and traditions does not harm anyone. It might create some kind of conflict in the mind of a child, but that's not the same as harming. Children have to learn how to live in the real world and that means dealing with people of different beliefs and traditions. Trying to shelter children from the facts of life will ultimately harm them more by making it harder for them to cope when they grow up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_Douglas View Post
    If an adult is encouraging a minor to have sex, that's a crime regardless of the gender of the people involved. Just talking about sexual matters in an appropriate way in order to educate, or giving your opinion on families and traditions does not harm anyone. It might create some kind of conflict in the mind of a child, but that's not the same as harming. Children have to learn how to live in the real world and that means dealing with people of different beliefs and traditions. Trying to shelter children from the facts of life will ultimately harm them more by making it harder for them to cope when they grow up.
    Blah, blah, blah. So, what about the Government interference of 'teaching' in schools? There's sex ed to 'teach' about this or that. If Government should stay out of it, they should stay out of it completely.

    I think this issue is all about the Russian Government distracting its populace from more serious issues/matters anyway. I think people should be allowed to protest or parade or march or whatever but without Government money/funding. If Government is to stay out of issues, then there should not be funding at all. However, this doesn't happen in the West, does it?!? The thought process is, once you give an inch, you end up giving a mile. But, again, as I have said before, the Russian state shows all kinds of 'Western propaganda' but I don't see anyone discussing this. I also don't see people who are discussing this issue pushing for other countries, say, in the Middle East, to relax laws and such. It's funny how people always pick and choose which particular issue to have a strong opinion about and which country and so forth. It's very telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    But what about real victims here? Gay children it is. It's a tragedy for them.
    “Whatever else it is, homosexuality is not a contagious disease like the measles. Prevailing scientific opinion is that an individual's sexuality is determined at a very early age and that a child's teachers do not really influence this.” -- Ronald Reagan, 1978 (Opposing a California bill to ban homosexuals from teaching in schools.)

    That was 35 years ago. Although the causes of homosexuality AND heterosexuality are still not known with certainty, the vast majority of scientists studying human sexuality now suspect that orientation (whether hetero or homo) is already becoming "neurologically hardwired" into the brain even before children have learned to speak their own native languages -- or even, to some degree, before a child takes its first breath of air.

    But some people prefer to believe that "gay children" are as imaginary as unicorns -- and the Russian government still wants to follow the зажать уши руками principle when Russian gays try to tell their own life stories.
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