Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Doomer

очень жаль что вас привлекают только смешные места и не привлекают факты, я почитал вашу ссылку, она лишь подтверждает мои слова: доказательств нет, а пока нет доказательств утверждать что люди рождаются геями - это давать заведомо ложную информацию. И как бы она не казалась социально-корректной, это все равно ложь

Каждый не очень образованный в биологии человек тоже имеет право верить избирательно, в том числе и я.
Но равноправие, справедливость и милосердие существуют для всех.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого!

А я читал, что в семьях, где всё наоборот, процент отклонений у детей увеличивается с 2% примерно до 20%.

Реальные маугли, воспитанные волками, не умеют говорить, ходить на двух ногах, улыбаться, испытывать человеческие эмоции и т.д. То есть многое в нашей жизни зависит от усвоенного поведения, а не от генетики.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Каждый не очень образованный в биологии человек тоже имеет право верить избирательно, в том числе и я.
Но равноправие, справедливость и милосердие существуют для всех.

конечно может, а каждый образованный человек может объяснить необразованному, где тот не прав
теперь вы это знаете, так что не надо повторять неправду как прописную истину, чтобы не плодить еще больше необразованных

iCake: Did you even read my post? Or better say did you try to understand what I wrote? The law doesn't say that it's possible to make someone gay nor does it say that it's impossible. That just states that telling a juvenile to become gay is illegal. Can you ever try to abstract from your personal feelings when judging something or trying to prove something? As I said I wrote that text at my own risk to become hated and unpopular by who advocate gay rights here. So it seems that risk has come to pass. I'm so dissapointed. But please, take a look at my post again. Did I state there that I dissaprove/approve of gays? Well, it seems I didn't. What a pity.

Igor, the thing is - we have already discussed so many of the things that you brought up! You even said you did not read through the entire thread. I think you should try to read through the thread before you criticize Lampada for "not reading" your post. To be honest, I had the same reaction as Lampada when I saw what you wrote. I don't think it's fair to make statements about her "personal feelings," etc. Let's not make this personal about anyone's ability to understand, read, etc. When people start insulting each other, a rational discussion is no longer possible.

Originally Posted by iCake

First of all, the whole thread was not about gay rights but about why it's ridiculous to boycott Sochi Olympics because of the law. Well, I'm gonna tell you why:

If somebody here really thinks that gay athletes will be persecuted due to this law they need to guess again. Russian high officials are bound to give the police orders to look the other way when it comes to dealing with anything regarding Olympics. Russia is not interested in letting Olympics go astray from what they see perfect Olympic games. That's the matter of the country's image nonetheless! If you look at the history of how Russia held any impoprtant even it will just become obvious. We always try to organize the most lavish, perfect and astonishing events if they're to be international. This is the Russian thing, it's a part of our culture. (Well, the thing is that we don't always undoubtly pull this off but that's another thing to discuss. ) There is nothing to believe it's gonna be different this time or at any time soon.

I have been opposed to a boycott all along. I very much doubt that Russia is going to arrest foreigners in Sochi, because if they arrest everyone who wears a rainbow or paints their nails like rainbows, they would have to arrest thousands of people and they are not going to have the manpower or facilities for that.

I also think that Russia needs these Games. They need the tourism and money the Games will generate for the Russian economy, and they need the prestige of the Games because Russia plans to hold more international competitions in the future.

On the other hand, I would not be surprised if there are some overzealous police officers who DO arrest foreigners during the Olympics and cause a huge scandal. The very fact that this law has been created, and the fact that there has been so much back-and-forth with officials in Russia and on the International Olympic Committee about how and to what degree the laws will be enforced during the games, has led to a lot of concern and outrage in the west. I think because people are so outraged about the law, Russia might as well have said "Hey! All you queers! Come on over and show us how you feel about this law!" I think you can expect to see a LOT of protest during the Games, and it is going to be very interesting how Russia will respond to that.

There is no way to foresee the future, but I predict that there will be a lot of foreigners protesting the laws.

Second of all, did somebody here actually examine the law? All it says is that it's prohibited to popularize the notion among juveniles that being a gay is utterly great, awesome and so much better than being dully straight. In other words it's illegal to tell juveniles that they should be gay or to incline them to be gay by any means. And it undoubtly doesn't prohibit anyone from being gay, also it doesn't prohibit anyone from telling an adult that to be gay is great, doesn't prohibit gay clubs as long as they host adults only, doesn't prohibit so called "pride parades" as long as no juveniles are involved and it doesn't prohibit any gay symbolics. Still more it doesn't prohibit a whole load of other gay activities but I think it's enough for now because you've most likely got the point already.

Alex posted the entire text of the law and we have discussed it at some length already.

As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. It definitely doesn't deprive gays of their normal life, that just impose some limits om their interactions with children. And if you ask me I'd say all persons, be they straight or gay, have some certain limits on how they're allowed to interact with children.

You can't turn a child gay. A child is either gay or not gay. Unfortunately, with this law in place, gay children will not receive any support or understanding from society. They will feel alone, misunderstood, and afraid to admit who they really are. Some will learn to wear a mask, to pretend they are not gay. They may even grow up, have families and kids of their own - and have gay love affairs on the side the whole time. This happens frequently in conservative religious societies where homosexuality is viewed as a "sin." When their wives and kids find out about their secret gay lovers, there is a great deal of pain and suffering for everyone involved, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. The wife and children will (understandably) no longer trust the husband/father who had a gay lover all this time. The wife will probably divorce the husband, and then the kids will have no father. And ALL of this will happen because the child was not allowed to be openly gay in the first place, and did not have the support of society.

I don't think that people are looking at the long-term consequences of these laws. The laws are a band-aid solution to a problem which really requires skilled surgery and intensive care. The law is nothing but an appeal to populist ideals, and a distraction from more serious issues.

Yes, I understand that this is Russia's right to do as it pleases and that my opinion as a "foreigner" is not welcome or appreciated. But I think, over the next ten or twenty years, Russia will slowly come to understand what I have just said here. I guess Russia will have to follow its own path, and find out on its own. It took America and Europe many decades to get to the place where we decided to protect gay people and support them in society, and we are still evolving. Even with all of our protections and support in place, people are still discriminated against, beaten, and killed because they are gay. So even in the west, we have a long way to go.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Igor, the thing is - we have already discussed so many of the things that you brought up! You even said you did not read through the entire thread. I think you should try to read through the thread before you criticize Lampada for "not reading" your post. To be honest, I had the same reaction as Lampada when I saw what you wrote. I don't think it's fair to make statements about her "personal feelings," etc. Let's not make this personal about anyone's ability to understand, read, etc. When people start insulting each other, a rational discussion is no longer possible.

Okay, I see. I tried to be as distant about gays as I could and then I got nothing but a personal based biased view thrown back at me. Sorry for asking to be as distant in your views as I tried to be. Sorry for asking not to completely distort the gist of what I said. Sorry for being such a jerk who definitely doesn't support homosexuality, although I didn't even said that. Sorry for trying to express my thoughts while holding on to only facts and I'm most definitely sorry for expecting a reply based on facts as well.

As for the rational conversation I don't see one and I don't think I will.

Nice chatting about gay rights and great job backing each other up

Originally Posted by iCake

Okay, I see. I tried to be as distant about gays as I could and then I got nothing but a personal based biased view thrown back at me. Sorry for asking to be as distant in your views as I tried to be. Sorry for asking not to completely distort the gist of what I said. Sorry for being such a jerk who definitely doesn't support homosexuality, although I didn't even said that. Sorry for trying to express my thoughts while holding on to only facts and I'm most definitely sorry for expecting a reply based on facts as well.

As for the rational conversation I don't see one and I don't think I will.

Nice chatting about gay rights and great job backing each other up

And now who is allowing personal feelings to get in the way? Come on, Igor, I didn't even accuse you of any of those things. I just thought it was unfair how you (and Doomer) ganged up on Lampada and made statements about her not understanding. So, is it ok for you two to "back each other up" but not ok for me to back up Lampada?

Let's just get away from all the personal stuff. What I mean by personal is not our opinions regarding gay rights, but people's individual personalities. Let's not turn this into a flame-fest! The discussion actually has been quite civil so far. Not everyone is agreeing with each other of course, but for the most part, we are not attacking each other on a personal level.

No one is throwing their opinions in your face anymore than you have thrown your opinions out here. Everyone has a right to agree or disagree. I am just asking that we not start attacking people's individual personalities or making statements about their personal faults, etc, etc. Once the insults start flying, there can no longer be a civilized discussion.

Дебора, в Международном Олимпийском Комитете (МОК) есть статья, запрещающая любую политическую или социальную пропаганду. МОК уже отреагировал, как и российские спортсмены. ...Кстати, на универсиаде и чемпионате по лёгкой атлетике никаких протестов и провокаций не было.
Если говорить более серьезно — русские прекрасно осознают, что это шаг в сторону пропасти. Это исходит от самих людей, у нас прививка от этой напасти.

Unfortunately, with this law in place, gay children will not receive any support or understanding from society. They will feel alone, misunderstood, and afraid to admit who they really are. Some will learn to wear a mask, to pretend they are not gay. ... ...

Человек, который стал геем или лесбиянкой должен искать помощи прежде всего у психолога, поскольку что-то сломало его естественную (природную) программу. В результате, и в пределе возможно только два варианта:
1. Добровольное или принудительное свидание с психотерапевтом, если человек не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.
2. Человек остается наедине со своей проблемой и никому её не показывает до тех пор, пока не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.

Итак. Человек имеет право на нетрадиционную сексуальную ориентацию, но он не имеет права её пропагандировать и продвигать.
Дебора, понятно почему, или пояснить дополнительно (это не угроза, а аппеляция к знаниям по биологии и социологии)?

On the subject of "are they born gay or did they choose to be gay" - we can all post links to support our point of view on this. But the actual scientific studies which have been done (as opposed to wikipedia articles or links to homophobic websites) show that gay people have no choice. It's actually in their DNA.

Religious people in the west believe gays can be "cured." That has been proven wrong again and again with disastrous results. All that this supposed "therapy" does is indoctrinate people with Bible scriptures showing that homosexuality is a sin, thus shaming the people who are gay to the point where they believe there is something wrong with them. They will then wear a mask, pretend to be straight, and they will wind up not only deceiving themselves but many other people as well. Many of the subjects of this "therapy" also commit suicide from all of the shame that is heaped upon them.

In fact, the largest organization in the US dedicated to so-called "conversion therapy" has closed its doors because it was so unsuccessful, and its leader has even admitted he was wrong.

The Downfall of Exodus International Signals Change | Mia Norton

From this article:

The concepts taught by Exodus International have been backed by flawed scientific "evidence" that the anti-gay community has used to justify its agenda. In 2003 Dr. Robert L. Spitzer produced a study claiming that in interviewing 200 graduates of reparative therapy, all claimed to have had a decrease in or a complete reversal of homosexual attractions. Exodus International, Focus on the Family and other Christian-right group have clung to this slim shred of documentation that "gays can be cured." Even after Spitzer renounced that position and admitted that the study was not conclusive on the matter, these groups have continued to base their damaging treatments on his flawed and incomplete data. Exodus International has been revered by the Christian right as the leading reparative therapy group in the nation, spurring many splinter groups to crop up and follow in its likeness. Christian organizations have relied heavily on the work of Exodus International to fuel the misconception that homosexuality is a choice and a sin, and that it can and should be changed.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Дебора, в Международном Олимпийском Комитете (МОК) есть статья, запрещающая любую политическую или социальную пропаганду. МОК уже отреагировал, как и российские спортсмены. ...Кстати, на универсиаде и чемпионате по лёгкой атлетике никаких протестов и провокаций не было.
Если говорить более серьезно — русские прекрасно осознают, что это шаг в сторону пропасти. Это исходит от самих людей, у нас прививка от этой напасти.


Человек, который стал геем или лесбиянкой должен искать помощи прежде всего у психолога, поскольку что-то сломало его естественную (природную) программу. В результате, и в пределе возможно только два варианта:
1. Добровольное или принудительное свидание с психотерапевтом, если человек не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.
2. Человек остается наедине со своей проблемой и никому её не показывает до тех пор, пока не сможет переосмыслить свою ориентацию самостоятельно.

The idea that gay people can be "cured" is, as I have now noted multiple times, outdated and erroneous. Many psychological studies have already been done to prove this, but I can see that Russia will have to figure this out for itself. Talk to me about this again in twenty years, if I am still alive then. Meanwhile, nothing you are saying here is "new" to me. Americans used to believe the same way back in the 1950's. Religious conservatives in America still do believe this way. But the psychology community, the scientific community, agrees that being gay is not a "bad habit" or a "sin" or something that can be "cured."

Откуда такая информация? Ты точно уверена в её достоверности?
Если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить заразить нормальных людей. Не так ли (без эмоций)? В природе такие всегда отфильтровывались (и не только по этой причине) естественным или биологическим отбором.

Originally Posted by Deborski

And now who is allowing personal feelings to get in the way? Come on, Igor, I didn't even accuse you of any of those things. I just thought it was unfair how you (and Doomer) ganged up on Lampada and made statements about her not understanding. So, is it ok for you two to "back each other up" but not ok for me to back up Lampada?

I'm trying to use facts, you trying to use social studies which are not facts
And all I'm saying that there is NO PROOF for either of theories. But you saying: "oh, well, there is no proof, so we make up our own conclusion and that's gonna be the truth". I mean that is exactly what the Church was trying to do to you when you were younger and sadly this is what you are doing now. You supporting your believes with fakes to make yourself feel better.

Originally Posted by Deborski

On the subject of "are they born gay or did they choose to be gay" - we can all post links to support our point of view on this. But the actual scientific studies which have been done (as opposed to wikipedia articles or links to homophobic websites) show that gay people have no choice. It's actually in their DNA.

Well, actually there are no facts confirming that being gay is genetic disorder. It's only "believes" and no proof

Originally Posted by Doomer

I'm trying to use facts, you trying to use social studies which are not facts
And all I'm saying that there is NO PROOF for either of theories. But you saying: "oh, well, there is no proof, so we make up our own conclusion and that's gonna be the truth". I mean that is exactly what the Church was trying to do to you when you were younger and sadly this is what you are doing now. You supporting your believes with fakes to make yourself feel better.

And now you are getting personal and making implications about my level of intelligence/understanding, etc. Sorry, but I am not going to get into this with you. I did not reference "social studies" - I am referencing psychological studies and scientific studies. Whereas, you are just voicing your opinion. You will choose what to believe in, I guess. But as long as you are going after me with veiled insults, I am not going to respond to you further.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Откуда такая информация? Ты точно уверена в её достоверности?
Если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить заразить нормальных людей. Не так ли (без эмоций)? В природе такие всегда отфильтровывались (и не только по этой причине) естественным или биологическим отбором.

As I said, I guess you will just have to find out for yourself. Come back to me in 20 years and we can discuss it then.

Meanwhile, gay people can not "infect" anyone. Being gay is not "contagious." LOL

А я с ним абсолютно согласен. Дебора, не обижайся, никто тебя не оскорблял. Просто расти над собой, если собираешься жить дальше, даже если что-то кажется непоколебимой догмой.

У меня тоже проблем хватает, которые надо решать.

Originally Posted by Deborski

And now you are getting personal and making implications about my level of intelligence/understanding, etc. Sorry, but I am not going to get into this with you. I did not reference "social studies" - I am referencing psychological studies and scientific studies. Whereas, you are just voicing your opinion. You will choose what to believe in, I guess. But as long as you are going after me with veiled insults, I am not going to respond to you further.

Could you please point me to the article that confirms that being gay is a genetic disorder, because that's what you said earlier

Originally Posted by Deborski

It's actually in their DNA.

psychological studies cannot confirm the medical fact of genetic disorder because psychological studies can only be done on people who actually can respond i.e. not on babies. Thus they might confirm that "gayness" cannot be "cured" but they cannot confirm that people born with it. And that's a big issue and big question. Because if that's either environmental or social then it can be prevented in some cases and people should now that they might have a choice for their children and this is very important.

The Real Story on Gay Genes | DiscoverMagazine.com

Methylation turns off certain sections of genetic code. So even though we inherit two copies of every gene—one from our mother, one from our father—whether the gene is methylated often determines which of the two genes will be turned on. Methylation is inherited, just as DNA is. But unlike DNA, which has an enzyme that proofreads both the original and the copy to minimize errors, methylation has no built-in checks. It can change from one generation to the next and may be influenced by diet or environment. It’s in this mutability that Bocklandt hopes to find the secret, by seeing which flipped genetic switches correlate with homosexuality.

A linkage between DNA markers on the X chromosome an... [Science. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI

The role of genetics in male sexual orientation was investigated by pedigree and linkage analyses on 114 families of homosexual men. Increased rates of same-sex orientation were found in the maternal uncles and male cousins of these subjects, but not in their fathers or paternal relatives, suggesting the possibility of sex-linked transmission in a portion of the population. DNA linkage analysis of a selected group of 40 families in which there were two gay brothers and no indication of nonmaternal transmission revealed a correlation between homosexual orientation and the inheritance of polymorphic markers on the X chromosome in approximately 64 percent of the sib-pairs tested. The linkage to markers on Xq28, the subtelomeric region of the long arm of the sex chromosome, had a multipoint lod score of 4.0 (P = 10(-5), indicating a statistical confidence level of more than 99 percent that at least one subtype of male sexual orientation is genetically influenced.

http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/1...homosexuality/

To be specific, the new theory suggests that homosexuality is caused by epigenetic marks, or “epi-marks,” related to sensitivity to hormones in the womb. These are compounds that sit on DNA and regulate how active, or inactive certain genes are, and also control when during development these genes are most prolific. Gavrilets and his colleagues believe that gene expression may regulate how a fetus responds to testosterone, the all-important male sex hormone. They further argue that epi-marks may help to buffer a female fetus from high levels of testosterone by suppressing receptors that respond to testosterone, for example, (thus ensuring normal fetal development even in the presence of a lot of testosterone) or to buffer a male fetus from low levels of testosterone by upregulating receptors that bind to the hormone (ensuring normal fetal development even in the absence of high levels of testosterone). Normally, these epi-marks are erased after they are activated, but if those marks are passed down to the next generation, the same epi-marks that protected a man in utero may cause oversensitivity to testosterone among his daughters, and the epi-marks that protected a woman in utero may lead to undersensitivity to testosterone among her sons.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

А я с ним абсолютно согласен. Дебора, не обижайся, никто тебя не оскорблял. Просто расти над собой, если собираешься жить дальше, даже если что-то кажется непоколебимой догмой.

У меня тоже проблем хватает, которые надо решать.

I'm sorry, but it does offend me when people make this a personal issue and start attacking me personally, rather than stick to the facts. Of course, I will not allow this to ruin my day or anything. But if people start insulting me, I am not going to continue discussing the subject with them.