Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Проверим.
Но в любом случае, если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить распространиться на нормальных людей. Иначе это приведет к вырождению, а всё начинается именно с толерантности (безвольности).

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Проверим.
Но в любом случае, если это действительно мутация, то ей нельзя позволить распространиться на нормальных людей. Иначе это приведет к вырождению, а всё начинается именно с толерантности (безвольности).

Yes, Hitler thought the same thing. He thought that everyone who was a "mutant" should be rounded up and "weeded out." And when we start deciding what is a "mutant" and what is "normal" - where does it end up? For now, you call gay people "mutants." What about autistic kids? Should be also weed them out? What about kids who are born with no legs and no arms? Should we round them up and put them in concentration camps?

Where does it end?

Стоп-стоп. Я говорил о запрете пропаганды. Если кто-то — человек нетрадиционной сексуальной ориентации — это его дело, но не надо перекладывать с больной головы на здоровую.

Originally Posted by Eledhwen

Стоп-стоп. Я говорил о запрете пропаганды. Если кто-то — человек нетрадиционной сексуальной ориентации — это его дело, но не надо перекладывать с больной головы на здоровую.

You specifically stated that you think "mutants" should not be allowed to exist. I simply replied that Hitler thought the same way. There is no shifting of blame to anyone. I was certainly not "blaming" anyone - but it seemed to me that you are blaming people for being gay, and insisting that it's some kind of "disease" or "mutation" which can be fixed and cured. I'm just asking you to re-examine your own thoughts.

I will not "стоп-стоп" supporting gay rights in my country. And if Russia has laws which make it illegal for me to wear something as innocent as a rainbow on my nails, I probably won't travel there any time soon. It makes me sad, because I love Russia. But at the same time, I have friends who are gay and I support them. I am not ever going to stop supporting them.

In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are. I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change. My thinking evolved. Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

Originally Posted by Deborski

The Real Story on Gay Genes | DiscoverMagazine.com

Thank you but there is still no proof. I read the articles and they were long but if you also read the whole thing you will find what I'm talking about
Here is an example
You quoting article

Methylation turns off certain sections of genetic code. So even though we inherit two copies of every gene—one from our mother, one from our father—whether the gene is methylated often determines which of the two genes will be turned on. Methylation is inherited, just as DNA is. But unlike DNA, which has an enzyme that proofreads both the original and the copy to minimize errors, methylation has no built-in checks. It can change from one generation to the next and may be influenced by diet or environment. It’s in this mutability that Bocklandt hopes to find the secret, by seeing which flipped genetic switches correlate with homosexuality.

And later the same articles says

Ideally, Bocklandt would scan the genome of each individual, looking for a methylation pattern anywhere on any chromosome that shows up repeatedly in the gay member of each twin pair. Unfortunately, at the moment it costs about $10 million a person to map out every base pair of the 46 chromosomes, so Bocklandt is looking only where he suspects to unearth genetic gold. If he finds a pattern, then he will look at the DNA beneath the methylation.

So again it's a theory that might be true and might be not true. And all I'm saying that until it is true you shouldn't say otherwise and that's all I'm saying in this regard

Moreover he's studying twins, specifically , to prove that it is beyond DNA. Because twins have the same DNA and one of the twins can be straight while the other is gay. And this is a strong argument against "born this way" nature of the cause. However it is also a strong argument against environmental cause, so there is a chance that it is social(for example one of the twins dominating the other) but again, no proof

PS: However if it is social the Russian law seems to be quite reasonable. I believe some gay people would like to be "not-gay" if they could. If being gay is not genetic but acquired during brain development then it can be prevented. As well as some kids require psychological help to give them a better chance in life (I'm not talking about gays here but rather special eds )

Originally Posted by Doomer

So again it's a theory that might be true and might be not true. And all I'm saying that until it is true you shouldn't say otherwise and that's all I'm saying in this regard.

But it's OK for you to state adamantly that people are NOT born gay, right? Just not OK for me to say they they ARE born gay.

Look, you are entitled to your opinion, Doomer. And I am entitled to mine. Just because I am not a geneticist does not mean I am wrong. And just because this is a science which is still evolving, does not make you right either.

We will agree to disagree. But do not try to shout me down and call my opinions BULLSHIT when you cannot "prove" anything either.

Originally Posted by Deborski

But it's OK for you to state adamantly that people are NOT born gay, right? Just not OK for me to say they they ARE born gay.

No, you are incorrect
I did not say that people are not born gay, I said that's it is wrong to say that they are. And again because there is no proof. And because it is a sensitive topic these small details matter.

Originally Posted by Deborski

We will agree to disagree. But do not try to shout me down and call my opinions BULLSHIT when you cannot "prove" anything either.

I am not calling them bullshit I'm calling them conclusions that are not based on facts but rather on personal believes. So it is a religion but not science.

PS: you don't like to be criticized but it seems to me that you think it is appropriate to criticize the others. I think you should play fair if you want to see respect to your opinions .

Originally Posted by Doomer

No, you are incorrect
I did not say that people are not born gay, I said that's it is wrong to say that they are. And again because there is no proof. And because it is a sensitive topic these small details matter.


I am not calling them bullshit I'm calling them conclusions that are not based on facts but rather on personal believes. So it is a religion but not science.

PS: you don't like to be criticized but it seems to me that you think it is appropriate to criticize the others. I think you should play fair if you want to see respect to your opinions .

You've made the statement many times, Doomer. I am not just responding to your latest comment, but to the many, many times you have said that it's "bullshit."

It isn't "religion" - that's just silly. I'm about as far from "religious" as you can get.

There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not. How you choose to interpret that evidence, or completely ignore it, is your choice.

It isn't criticizing you personally to tell you to stop shouting me down. It's setting boundaries. Criticizing you personally, would be to make some remark about your intelligence or your emotional control, which I have not, and will not, do.

Why A Video Of A 15-Year-Old Russian Kid Facing Homophobic Bullying Is So Horrific - SFGate

From this article:

In the video, which appears to have been shot in the winter in the suburbs of a Russian city, a 15-year-old boy has been lured to a meeting place by the fictional online persona "Uncle Dima." However, once he is there he is met by a gang of young men and women. These young men and women apparently created a fake "Uncle Dima" account on VK, a Russian social network similar to Facebook, to lure the young boy to the meeting place.

They imply — though it is difficult to trust them — that the boy was planning to have some kind of sexual conduct with "Uncle Dima" in return for the money to buy a laptop.

Clearly under duress, the 15-year-old is then forced to "confess" to being a homosexual. He is forced to reveal his full name, the school he goes to, his parents' names, home address, etc.

Perhaps what is most remarkable about the video is that the gang that attacks the boy clearly feels proud of their actions. A number appear clearly in the video, and while one does wear a mask at one point, this may be more for intimidation. At another point an older lady comes into the frame, and she commends the gang for their actions, and tells the boy to be ashamed of himself.

Warning, video includes strong language and abuse.

Originally Posted by Deborski

You specifically stated that you think "mutants" should not be allowed to exist. I simply replied that Hitler thought the same way. There is no shifting of blame to anyone. I was certainly not "blaming" anyone - but it seemed to me that you are blaming people for being gay, and insisting that it's some kind of "disease" or "mutation" which can be fixed and cured. I'm just asking you to re-examine your own thoughts.

I will not "стоп-стоп" supporting gay rights in my country. And if Russia has laws which make it illegal for me to wear something as innocent as a rainbow on my nails, I probably won't travel there any time soon. It makes me sad, because I love Russia. But at the same time, I have friends who are gay and I support them. I am not ever going to stop supporting them.

In my younger years, I was as homophobic as you are. I also thought it was a sickness, or something they could change. My thinking evolved. Like I said, talk to me again in 20 years.

Радугу никто не запрещал.

Originally Posted by Deborski

You've made the statement many times, Doomer. I am not just responding to your latest comment, but to the many, many times you have said that it's "bullshit."

It is pointless to make an argument about something which is not here IMHO. As well as accusing me with it

Originally Posted by Deborski

It isn't "religion" - that's just silly. I'm about as far from "religious" as you can get.

Well if you have a better word for it then use it. I guess I can be silly, or was that another accusation?

Originally Posted by Deborski

There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not.

Again, where is the proof to that? I'm getting tired of these statements

Originally Posted by Deborski

It isn't criticizing you personally to tell you to stop shouting me down. It's setting boundaries. Criticizing you personally, would be to make some remark about your intelligence or your emotional control, which I have not, and will not, do.

Well, I wasn't criticizing you I was just making boundaries, everything else is just your interpretations.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Радугу никто не запрещал.

Gays arrested in Russia for wearing rainbow suspenders - AMERICAblog

Originally Posted by Deborski

Gays arrested in Russia for wearing rainbow suspenders - AMERICAblog

reality check

After 7 hours of detention, activists were not charged with “propaganda”, but with articles of St. Petersburg administrative code 19.3 (non-compliance with police requests) and 20.2 (participation in illegal demonstration) and released.

del

Warning, phallic images and uncontrollable laughter:

Originally Posted by iCake

The law doesn't say that it's possible to make someone gay nor does it say that it's impossible. That just states that telling a juvenile to become gay is illegal.

Really? Where does it say that? Here's the actual text of Part 1 and the beginning of part 2, as already posted by alexsms (the rest of the law details the different amounts of the fines, depending on the circumstances):

1. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток.

2. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния [...]

Where does it say ANYTHING about "telling a juvenile to become gay"? The law, if enforced as written, seemingly makes it illegal to publish a written opinion in a newspaper that gay people can lead happy, healthy, and psychologically well-adjusted lives. Because, presumably, the opinion that "gays can be happy" relates to the привлекательность нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений -- and ANYTHING published in a newspaper -- or posted to a non-pay website -- must be considered, in principle, доступно несовершеннолетним. As written, it comes close to the Orwellian concept of "thoughtcrime," since it prohibits the public expression of certain ideas.

There is more evidence to support that people are born gay, than there is evidence to support that they are not.

I would say, rather, that there is a lot of evidence supporting the idea that sexual orientation -- homo or hetero -- tends to develop long before the beginning of puberty. But whether children are literally "born gay", or whether they "become this way" very early in childhood, is an altogether different question.

And I would point out, by the way, that the acquisition of one's native language -- English, Russian, Chinese, or whatever -- is not the result of genes, nor of fetal hormones; it's something learned very early in childhood. Yet the fact that one's native language is learned from the childhood environment does not make it unlearnable or "correctable."

I'm a native English speaker, and even if someday I miraculously obtain "near-native" ability in Russian (стучать по дереву!) I will still be a native English speaker -- the grammar of English will always be more familiar to me. (And, under torture, I would say "f*cking Chr*st!" or "I want my mommy!", depending on the degree of pain -- but I'd scream it in English, not Russian!)

It's also possible, in theory, that a homosexual can learn to enjoy sexual activity with the opposite sex, and thus become "more bisexual" rather than strictly homosexual. But that doesn't mean they lose their same-sex attractions and become heterosexual. (I think that people can probably "shift a bit" on the Kinsey Scale, but there's little evidence that people can move from the extreme homosexual end to the extreme heterosexual end, or vice versa.)

As far as I know, there's only one SURE way for a gay person to become an "ex-homosexual," or for a straight person to become "ex-heterosexual," or for a native English speaker to become an "ex-native-English-speaker" -- горбатого могила исправит!

This link was probably one of the scientific articles that i've read about this article so far, Are People Born Gay? Genetics and Homosexuality

But anyways, this is how they "are" now, whether they born this way or not.
I personally think saying gay people shouldn't be gay, is like, for example saying someone should not like ice cream while he/she actually do like it and enjoy it.
It's their personal business.
And it's the majority of society who (if possible) can change anything in a country. But it definitely needs time depending on the culture of the country.
Just like majority of Sweden, Holland, Norway, Denmark, and..... Supported this idea so now the minority of them who do not support can't do anything but at least they can don't care about it, can't they?! And if they can't respect, at least don't disrespect them "just" because they're gay.

By the way, for people who think this is only about the behavior of foreigners at the Sochi Olympics, I would point out that if Lampada were posting from a Russian Internet account instead of a US one, she would now be liable for fines of at least a few thousand dollars, by my estimate, just for this thread alone! (Again, I'm assuming that the law were to be enforced exactly as it's written -- in reality, I expect that since Lampada is only a "blog commenter" and not a "blog owner," it's unlikely she would be fined, even if she were living in Russia. But why should Russians in Russia be fined for creating a blog that challenges homophobic ideas, and presents gay-supportive ideas instead, just because "minors might read it"?)

Originally Posted by MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY

But anyways, this is how they "are" now, whether they born this way or not.
I personally think saying gay people shouldn't be gay, is like, for example saying someone should not like ice cream while he/she actually do like it and enjoy it.

~97% of teenage boys would think you were insane if you told them "naked women aren't sexy; naked men are sexy!" To them, and to their brains, it's it's SELF-EVIDENTLY OBVIOUS that naked men are sexually unattractive, but naked women are the most beautiful sight in the world.

~3% of teenage boys are "wired the opposite way"; their subjective and unconscious definition of what "sexy" means is backwards.

And trying to tell either group how they SHOULD define "sexy" is as much a waste of time as telling people they should like raspberry ice cream more than chocolate ice cream.