Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Deborski

Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?

Hm, i guess I need to write it one more time

Originally Posted by Doomer

Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?

Just learned the beautiful English expression: the swing of the pendulum. Маятник качнулся, and now all people who had no respect in Socialism era, suddenly are "cool". On top of that, our President is a half of our state, and he is fond of church.

Originally Posted by Doomer

Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

How many in Russia are that religious? Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian? Any who really practice and go to church?
I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia. The total sum is probably zero. *(Being sarcastic there: I am talking about those who I've talked to).

Isn't anyone worried about the Church having so much control over the state?

Many people. However, "попы умеют дружить"
The talent to choose right friends is crucial if you are going to have limitless power.

But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things.

Do you mean they have some special rights above "ordinary" men?
What these rights are worth if nevertheless

gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Do you mean they have some special rights above "ordinary" men?
What these rights are worth if nevertheless

No. They do not have special rights above "ordinary men." There are simply laws in place which make it illegal to beat, kill, torture, and harass people because they are gay (or black, or Jewish, or any other class of people who have a history of being persecuted in our country). These laws are necessary now, because gay people are hated more than "ordinary" (ie, heterosexual) men.

To be even clearer, no rights are being taken away from heterosexual people, just because gays are protected by law. All these protections mean is that you can no longer fire someone from their job because they are gay. If they are a bad employee, you can still fire them. But you cannot fire them just because they are gay. Without these laws in place, discrimination is allowed and gay people have no legal recourse to fight a wrongful termination, for example.

Originally Posted by Deborski

No. They do not have special rights above "ordinary men." There are simply laws in place which make it illegal to beat, kill, torture, and harass people because they are gay (or black, or Jewish, or any other class of people who have a history of being persecuted in our country). These laws are necessary now, because gay people are hated more than "ordinary" (ie, heterosexual) men.

To be even clearer, no rights are being taken away from heterosexual people, just because gays are protected by law. All these protections mean is that you can no longer fire someone from their job because they are gay. If they are a bad employee, you can still fire them. But you cannot fire them just because they are gay. Without these laws in place, discrimination is allowed and gay people have no legal recourse to fight a wrongful termination, for example.

I would love more the law, which forbids to kill anyone, and I think you have it. Why not "enforce" it then?
In case of employer-employee relationships, I doubt that the cause of the fire can be proved. Simply lazy gays will be hard to fire. It is eternal issue: in Russia, there are special laws to prevent unfair terminations in respect to women (they tend to suddenly make kids and can miss the work for years, retaining the position), but it is revealed that "fair" termination became also almost impossible.

(Deleted. L.) Colorado is not somewhere in Russia, it's in the US. Every American believes if something nasty happens in the "best country in the world", the same things occur much more frequent somewhere else, because the rest world is just a big hole in comparison with the US.

But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

(Deleted. L.) Like George Carlin said: "I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"

Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

(Deleted. L.) Colorado is not somewhere in Russia, it's in the US. Every American believes if something nasty happens in the "best country in the world", the same things occur much more frequent somewhere else, because the rest world is just a big hole in comparison with the US.


(Deleted. L.) Like George Carlin said: "I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"

Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

All of the above are lies, twisting the truth, distortion. What is here? Self-deception, confusion or "Don't bother me with facts!"?

Carlin on gays: "Leave the f... people alone for Christ sake!"

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

You have a point there. That's just one example but those special interest groups on the left, often want special rights and feel they deserve advantages because they're so 'oppressed.' The mod can censor stuff she doesn't agree with but it doesn't change the truth.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"
Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

I can't find the photo now, but a few months ago I saw a picture of a Russian gay activist carrying a sign with the following slogan:

Я не горжусь тем, что я гей -- я горжусь тем, что не стыжусь.

(I'm quoting from memory; the wording may have been slightly different, but it was close to this.)

Anyway, my point is that "Gay Pride" (or "Irish Pride", or "Black Pride", or "Jewish Pride") originated as defensive reactions against other people's prejudice:




So, "Gay Pride" makes sense to the extent that an individual is surrounded by people who say "You ought to be ashamed!" But I would certainly agree that, as Other People's Prejudice diminishes, the "need" for events expressing "I'm Proud to be [fill-in-the-blank]" becomes less obvious. So minorities may lose interest in having special parades -- or, in some cases, these parades cease being political demonstrations and become Mardi-Gras-style events.

P.S. By the way -- it should be noted that, contrary to popular belief, "No Irish Need Apply" signs were probably quite rare in US history, and were mainly found in neighborhoods where Irish-American Catholics lived next door to British-American Protestants. Which is to say that Swedish-American Protestants and Italian-American Catholics had no particular prejudice against their Irish neighbors; anti-Irish hostility, where it existed, was mostly an obsession of certain US Protestants who had (recently) immigrated from the British Isles. (And the prejudice went in the other direction, too -- a lot of Irish-American Catholics hated British-American Protestants, but weren't hostile towards German-American Protestants.)

Bigoted Christian Extremists Get Lost At Sea For Months After Leaving US In Protest Of Homosexuality -

Meanwhile, in America...

When the Gastonguay family sailed away from America in May, they believed they were leaving behind a government that supports taxes, abortion, and homosexuality. You see, they’re the kind of Christians who feel persecuted because the government won’t adhere to Biblical law that supposedly outlaws gays and bans a woman’s right to choose. They are also convinced that government controls the churches because being gay and choosing to have an abortion aren’t illegal. So they left the United States in protest and set course for the island of Kiribati, which is between Hawaii and Australia. The family took “a leap of faith” and believed God would answer their prayers to take them to a land where they can practice their extreme and hateful religious beliefs. Well, God responded and it was epic.

...and best of all, our US government, who they hated, actually rescued and saved them.

В этом законе надо было сделать хитрее: запретить не только рекламу гомосексуальных, но и гетеросексуальных отношений.
И тогда никто бы не сказал, что это "Law against Gays".

Originally Posted by Юрка

В этом законе надо было сделать хитрее: запретить не только рекламу гомосексуальных, но и гетеросексуальных отношений.
И тогда никто бы не сказал, что это "Law against Gays".

Запрет рекламы гетеросексуальных отношений практически равносилен запрету брака между мужчиной и женщиной. А если учесть, что запрет на рекламу направлен в отношении несовершеннолетних, то считай, что сделай они это, то они бы запретили ребёнку жить в семье, как никак реклама

Originally Posted by iCake

Запрет рекламы гетеросексуальных отношений практически равносилен запрету брака между мужчиной и женщиной.

Не брака, а публичных обнималок, сосалок, лежалок и т.д.
Кстати, порнография сразу получила бы удар. А то сейчас она не подсудна.

Originally Posted by Lampada

И последствия этого закона для детей-геев просто трагические.

Да. Они не смогут размахивать причандалами на фестивале себе подобных. Такая трагедия...

Well, I tried to steer clear of this thread (I know I posted here first ) for as long as I saw it rapidly growing. I didn't read the whole thread but as from what I see I can say that people just forgot what this thread was all about and started to advocate/deny gay rights. At risk to become unpopular I think I have to express my thoughts about all that.

First of all, the whole thread was not about gay rights but about why it's ridiculous to boycott Sochi Olympics because of the law. Well, I'm gonna tell you why:

If somebody here really thinks that gay athletes will be persecuted due to this law they need to guess again. Russian high officials are bound to give the police orders to look the other way when it comes to dealing with anything regarding Olympics. Russia is not interested in letting Olympics go astray from what they see perfect Olympic games. That's the matter of the country's image nonetheless! If you look at the history of how Russia held any impoprtant even it will just become obvious. We always try to organize the most lavish, perfect and astonishing events if they're to be international. This is the Russian thing, it's a part of our culture. (Well, the thing is that we don't always undoubtly pull this off but that's another thing to discuss. ) There is nothing to believe it's gonna be different this time or at any time soon.


Second of all, did somebody here actually examine the law? All it says is that it's prohibited to popularize the notion among juveniles that being a gay is utterly great, awesome and so much better than being dully straight. In other words it's illegal to tell juveniles that they should be gay or to incline them to be gay by any means. And it undoubtly doesn't prohibit anyone from being gay, also it doesn't prohibit anyone from telling an adult that to be gay is great, doesn't prohibit gay clubs as long as they host adults only, doesn't prohibit so called "pride parades" as long as no juveniles are involved and it doesn't prohibit any gay symbolics. Still more it doesn't prohibit a whole load of other gay activities but I think it's enough for now because you've most likely got the point already.

All what I wrote is based on what I concluded from the actual law text after I'd actully read it. But don't take my word for that, after having read the law text I also happened upon the interview of the initiator of the law, Elena Mizulina.

The interview is in Russian but this site is called Master Russian so I trust you can get at least the main point of the interview and you surely are welcome to ask me to clarify anything you dind't understand there.

Also, one more thing, I agree that this law is far from perfect so some amendments are surely to come, But what law was perfect in its first edition? Even so sacred American constitution had and I'm sure will have some amendments.

As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. It definitely doesn't deprive gays of their normal life, that just impose some limits om their interactions with children. And if you ask me I'd say all persons, be they straight or gay, have some certain limits on how they're allowed to interact with children.

That's all what I had to say. I hope I didn't hurt or abuse anyone but this is my view on the law

Originally Posted by iCake

First of all, the whole thread was not about gay rights but about why it's ridiculous to boycott Sochi Olympics because of the law. Well, I'm gonna tell you why:

If somebody here really thinks that gay athletes will be persecuted due to this law they need to guess again. Russian high officials are bound to give the police orders to look the other way when it comes to dealing with anything regarding Olympics. Russia is not interested in letting Olympics go astray from what they see perfect Olympic games. That's the matter of the country's image nonetheless! If you look at the history of how Russia held any impoprtant even it will just become obvious. We always try to organize the most lavish, perfect and astonishing events if they're to be international. This is the Russian thing, it's a part of our culture. (Well, the thing is that we don't always undoubtly pull this off but that's another thing to discuss. ) There is nothing to believe it's gonna be different this time or at any time soon.

I have been opposed to a boycott all along. I very much doubt that Russia is going to arrest foreigners in Sochi, because if they arrest everyone who wears a rainbow or paints their nails like rainbows, they would have to arrest thousands of people and they are not going to have the manpower or facilities for that.

I also think that Russia needs these Games. They need the tourism and money the Games will generate for the Russian economy, and they need the prestige of the Games because Russia plans to hold more international competitions in the future.

On the other hand, I would not be surprised if there are some overzealous police officers who DO arrest foreigners during the Olympics and cause a huge scandal. The very fact that this law has been created, and the fact that there has been so much back-and-forth with officials in Russia and on the International Olympic Committee about how and to what degree the laws will be enforced during the games, has led to a lot of concern and outrage in the west. I think because people are so outraged about the law, Russia might as well have said "Hey! All you queers! Come on over and show us how you feel about this law!" I think you can expect to see a LOT of protest during the Games, and it is going to be very interesting how Russia will respond to that.

There is no way to foresee the future, but I predict that there will be a lot of foreigners protesting the laws.

Second of all, did somebody here actually examine the law? All it says is that it's prohibited to popularize the notion among juveniles that being a gay is utterly great, awesome and so much better than being dully straight. In other words it's illegal to tell juveniles that they should be gay or to incline them to be gay by any means. And it undoubtly doesn't prohibit anyone from being gay, also it doesn't prohibit anyone from telling an adult that to be gay is great, doesn't prohibit gay clubs as long as they host adults only, doesn't prohibit so called "pride parades" as long as no juveniles are involved and it doesn't prohibit any gay symbolics. Still more it doesn't prohibit a whole load of other gay activities but I think it's enough for now because you've most likely got the point already.

Alex posted the entire text of the law and we have discussed it at some length already.

As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. It definitely doesn't deprive gays of their normal life, that just impose some limits om their interactions with children. And if you ask me I'd say all persons, be they straight or gay, have some certain limits on how they're allowed to interact with children.

You can't turn a child gay. A child is either gay or not gay. Unfortunately, with this law in place, gay children will not receive any support or understanding from society. They will feel alone, misunderstood, and afraid to admit who they really are. Some will learn to wear a mask, to pretend they are not gay. They may even grow up, have families and kids of their own - and have gay love affairs on the side the whole time. This happens frequently in conservative religious societies where homosexuality is viewed as a "sin." When their wives and kids find out about their secret gay lovers, there is a great deal of pain and suffering for everyone involved, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. The wife and children will (understandably) no longer trust the husband/father who had a gay lover all this time. The wife will probably divorce the husband, and then the kids will have no father. And ALL of this will happen because the child was not allowed to be openly gay in the first place, and did not have the support of society.

I don't think that people are looking at the long-term consequences of these laws. The laws are a band-aid solution to a problem which really requires skilled surgery and intensive care. The law is nothing but an appeal to populist ideals, and a distraction from more serious issues.

Yes, I understand that this is Russia's right to do as it pleases and that my opinion as a "foreigner" is not welcome or appreciated. But I think, over the next ten or twenty years, Russia will slowly come to understand what I have just said here. I guess Russia will have to follow its own path, and find out on its own. It took America and Europe many decades to get to the place where we decided to protect gay people and support them in society, and we are still evolving. Even with all of our protections and support in place, people are still discriminated against, beaten, and killed because they are gay. So even in the west, we have a long way to go.

Originally Posted by iCake

...As far as I see it now this law is not against gays it's against turning our children into gays or somehow inclining them to become one. ...

Опять за рыбу гроши! Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого! Нельзя предложить девочке влюбиться в девочку, если она не родилась геем. Хорошо помню имена мальчиков, в которых я была влюблена в детском садике (Миша Сухинин), в младших классах (Олег Леднёв). В старших классах ни в кого не была влюблена, потом в институте (Толя Серёдкин) и т.д. То же самое про мальчиков. Мой сын ребёнком отнёс все свои "сокровища" девочке из другого класса. Потом спрашивал, а что можно сделать, чтобы понравиться кому-то.
Так что этот закон - злонамеренная чушь. И последствия этого закона для детей-геев просто трагические.


Крис Кристи молодец!
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...,6276501.story

Originally Posted by Lampada

Крис Кристи молодец!

cool link provided, thanks

Originally Posted by Lampada

Опять за рыбу гроши! Абсолютно невозможно сделать геем ребёнка, который не рождён геем. Нет такого!

Well, you are actually wrong
There is no proven fact that it is impossible, as well as there is no proven fact that people born as gays
Simon LeVay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia