Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn | Psychology Today

Definitely, the research was realized by 'the British scientists' (tm# in the interests of gay lobby. (Deleted. L.)

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Definitely, the research was realized by 'the British scientists' (tm# in the interests of gay lobby. #Deleted. L.#

Some the most fervent anti-gays may turned out to be gays themselves.




Anti-Gay Homophobic pastors/politicians who turn out to be gay

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Anti-Gay Christian Lives 'Undercover' As Gay For a Year (close captured)

Really, Mr. Putin? HITLER suspended its anti-gay laws during the 1936 Olympics, but Russia won't do the same for next year | Mail Online

From this article:

As gays and lesbians express outrage that Russia's anti-gay laws will bring a disturbing level of intolerance to the 2014 Olympic Winter Games in the resort town of Sochi, it has emerged that Adolf Hitler, who instituted the most absolutist anti-homosexual laws in history, waived them for the 1936 Olympics in Berlin.

In on online essay titled 'The Facade of Hospitality,' the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum reports that 'in preparation for the arrival of Olympic spectators, Nazi officials ordered that foreign visitors should not be subjected to the criminal strictures of the Nazi anti-homosexual laws.'

Hitler has also promised the International Olympic Committee in 1935 that his government would take down anti-semitic signs and banners in Berlin during the summer games, and in Garmisch-Partenkirchen during the winter games, The New York Times reported then.

Originally Posted by Deborski

In on online essay titled 'The Facade of Hospitality,' the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum reports that 'in preparation for the arrival of Olympic spectators, Nazi officials ordered that foreign visitors should not be subjected to the criminal strictures of the Nazi anti-homosexual laws.'

Hmm... it's always been my understanding that the anti-homosexual laws of the Nazi regime were seldom applied to non-Germans. After all, persecuting Jewish and Romany gays for their sexuality would have been rather redundant, since the Master Plan was to kill ALL of them! And when it came to non-Nordic/Aryan groups who weren't scheduled for extermination, but only for occupation -- like the French, for example -- more gay Frenchmen = fewer French babies = fewer French resistance fighters in 20 years. Of course, there were gays who happened to be among the millions of Jews and Roms and Poles and Communists, but for the most part, they weren't arrested specifically for being homosexual. (I've seen estimates of approximately 50,000 Germans and Austrians who were thrown into Nazi concentration camps BECAUSE they were gay.)

And, incidentally, while I think that Hanna has been dancing around and understating the damage that this new Russian law does to freedom of speech and the press, I also think that it's a gigantic exaggeration to bring up the Nazis in this thread. At this point, I would say the law is "worrisome", but it's far from being a human-rights disaster YET. And, while the law attacks freedom of speech, the "Insult to Religious Feelings" law ALSO attacks freedom of speech*, but it hasn't drawn a call for international boycotts.

P.S. Hanna -- "You're allowed to publicly say anything you want about homosexuality as long as it's not too positive or supportive" is not far removed, in my opinion, from the Saudi policy that "You can publicly worship any God you want, as long as it's not the Christian God, or the Jewish God, or the Hindu pantheon..."

P.P.S. I would add that the Russian law against religious insults -- bad as it may be -- is "content neutral" insofar as Christians are prohibited from insulting Islam, AND Muslims are prohibited from insulting Christianity -- so, in theory, everyone wears the same gag. But the "Homosexual Propaganda" law does not even make a pretense of banning propaganda AGAINST homosexuality -- only one side in this debate gets the duct tape:

Relax Throbert! I am not comparing Russia to Nazi Germany... yet... although I must say that the other day I was pounced on by a group of angry Russian homophobes and one of them said it is a комплимент to be called a Nazi. I reminded him that 11 million Red Army Soldiers died fighting Hitler. There is definitely a strong neo-Nazi presence in Russia right now, and I do not think it's going "too far" to express concerns that the persecution of gays may not be an end unto itself. It begins with gays, and who is next? Jews? Atheists? I think we are beholden to make historic parallels where we see them. The rise of nationalism and religious laws in Russia is grave cause for concern. Same goes for the religious conservatives trying to take over America as well!

Originally Posted by Deborski

Relax Throbert! I am not comparing Russia to Nazi Germany... yet... although I must say that the other day I was pounced on by a group of angry Russian homophobes and one of them said it is a комплимент to be called a Nazi. I reminded him that 11 million Red Army Soldiers died fighting Hitler. There is definitely a strong neo-Nazi presence in Russia right now, and I do not think it's going "too far" to express concerns that the persecution of gays may not be an end unto itself. It begins with gays, and who is next? Jews? Atheists? I think we are beholden to make historic parallels where we see them. The rise of nationalism and religious laws in Russia is grave cause for concern. Same goes for the religious conservatives trying to take over America as well!

I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only пуля в лоб can cure them.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only пуля в лоб can cure them.

Hahahaha, funny. But to be clear I am certainly not saying anyone in this thread is a neo-Nazi ))))))

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only пуля в лоб can cure them.

What cures the Marxists? Anyway, what would a lefty be doing talking to Russian 'neo-nazis?' This thread keeps getting more comical.

I reiterate, why is it just 'this' issue but neither Westerners nor Russians (here) are complaining about propaganda and denial of rights of others?

Why is there no vocal protest about other places like the Middle East? I agree, there is justification to question the law in Russia but there's a peculiar lack of interest to judge anyone else or other countries.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

What cures the Marxists? Anyway, what would a lefty be doing talking to Russian 'neo-nazis?' This thread keeps getting more comical.

I reiterate, why is it just 'this' issue but neither Westerners nor Russians (here) are complaining about propaganda and denial of rights of others?

Why is there no vocal protest about other places like the Middle East? I agree, there is justification to question the law in Russia but there's a peculiar lack of interest to judge anyone else or other countries.

Clearly you have not seen one of my other recent posts about atrocities going on in Muslim countries.

Jews are in power in Russia, as well as in the whole world.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Jews are in power in Russia, as well as in the whole world.

Yes, clearly Obama is a Jew.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Yes, clearly Obama is a Jew.

The real power is in the hands of those who control the American financial system.

People here think I'm some kind of homophobe because I am against gay pride parades. I was actually engaged to a guy who didn't quite know which team he was batting for (as somebody politely put it) I loved him very dearly and definitely did not stop loving him after I found out what the situation was. I know he essentially couldn't stop himself, and that his love for me, and knowing that he hurt me just made it worse. Ultimately I took the only decision I could do and broke the engagement. But when we spoke about what triggered gay feelings, he said that it was that it was so easily accessible - internet etc - and that it was considered ok nowadays, which made it harder to resist. I can't relate to this level of sexual temptation but I believe he was completely honest.

The whole thing really broke my heart. I see it as a temptation, like alcohol, sweets or drugs are some peoples vice. I realise that some people are only turned on by the same sex and some by both. I don't think what they do is healthy and I don't think it should be promoted. But I also don't think it is for me to pass judgment on. I have my own vices. In some cases I think circumstances bring it out - for example my ex went to an all boys boarding school for practically all his schooling. He believed there was a link. I certainly don't want to condemn people for it, or criticise or judge anyone.

I'm just saying don't celebrate it in front of me, because I don't want to know! I don't want to have to travel to work in a bus with gay flags for a week (this happened last year) and I don't want to get leaflets on towns with people in vulgar outfits promoting something that is offensive to many, and belongs in the bedroom, not on the street.

I am upset that my country is now some kind of gay advertisement and there is a level of fanaticism about the pro-gay stance. I mean it HAD to be a Swedish person doing that rainbow nail thing, didn't it? (she may not be Swedish born, I don't know anything about her - she looks African and has an English name, but nevertheless it's her nationality). But she is celebrated as a heroine now. It also irritates me that Sweden seems hell bent to destroy any Russian goodwill at every opportunity. For the last 20 years it's just been non-stop "how can we piss off Russia for no reason..." (imho) Nobody would do a manifestation against the wars of the USA, nobody manifested anything in China during the Olympics there, and it has a much worse record then Russia with just about everything.

I'm finding that I am politically much more on par with the Russians on this forum then most of the rest of the members. Don't know how that came about really. Maybe I was brainwashed by Cheburashka as a kid, lol..... Or I played too much with my nested Russian doll!

We have yet to see ONE Russian person who lives in Russia come on here and say they believe the law is wrong.

If you are Russian, live in Russia and you think the law is wrong, please make a comment!

Originally Posted by Hanna

We have yet to see ONE Russian person who lives in Russia come on here and say they believe the law is wrong.

If you are Russian, live in Russia and you think the law is wrong, please make a comment!

Would publicly stating that the law is wrong be an act of "propaganda"? If so, I would expect it is asking too much of people to come out and say they oppose it. However, some of my friends in Russia have told me privately that they think the laws go too far.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The whole thing really broke my heart. I see it as a temptation, like alcohol, sweets or drugs are some peoples vice. I realise that some people are only turned on by the same sex and some by both. I don't think what they do is healthy and I don't think it should be promoted. But I also don't think it is for me to pass judgment on. I have my own vices. In some cases I think circumstances bring it out - for example my ex went to an all boys boarding school for practically all his schooling. He believed there was a link. I certainly don't want to condemn people for it, or criticise or judge anyone.

I empathize with you that your heart was broken. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. But I disagree with your analogy that being gay is like a "temptation" or an "addiction" for chocolates or alcohol. People are born gay. It isn't something they can shake off. They are either gay, or they are not gay. And in my experience, forcing gay people into the closet, forcing them to lie about who they are in the first place, is what creates situations like the one you are describing! Why did this man try to pretend he was straight in the first place? If he lived in a society where he could freely be gay, he would have never dated you and he would never have broken your heart!

And I do not mean this as an attack on you, but when you say that being gay is a "vice" like addiction or a bad habit, you are judging! Personally, I do not care if people are gay or not. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. I am glad to know they are gay up front though, because then there are no guessing games and no one is lied to or hurt. To me, being gay is like being black or being white. It is what it is. A black person can't change the color of his skin, even in a society where being black means that he is discriminated against. And gay people can't change the fact that they are gay. Sure, they can be celibate, as Throbert suggested, but why should they have to? Why can't they be allowed to love and marry and enjoy all the same rights as heterosexual people have?

I do not support outlandish expressions of a pornographic nature, whether they are gay or straight. I could fully understand if Russia made laws against pornography in public, or showing pornography to kids. If the gay pride parades contained too much pornography, it would have been easy enough to just outlaw the porn. But why also outlaw rainbow flags? It makes no sense to me.

I'm not telling Russians how to run their country. I very much doubt that these laws will change. But at the same time, I am afraid - as a foreigner - to travel to Russia right now. I don't want to be accused of spreading "propaganda" if I happen to mention that my husband's uncle is gay, or if I wear rainbow earrings or something. So sure, Russia can keep its laws as is Russia's right as a sovereign country, but to expect that there will be no international reaction to that is naive.

One other thought I have for today. Back in January (when the law got its first reading in the Duma), I mentioned the recent death of an American woman named Jeanne Manford, the founder of America's first-ever group for heterosexuals who support gay rights, now known as PFLAG. Mrs. Manford began her efforts in 1972, three years after New York's "Stonewall Riots" in June 1969. Around 1973, the word "gay" in the sense of "homosexual" was used for the first time ever on a U.S. television network (the word had been "underground slang" since approximately the WW2 era). In 1977, on the sitcom All in the Family, Edith Bunker attends a cousin's funeral and learns that "Cousin Liz" had been in a relationship with another woman for 20 years or so. In 1980, an 18-year-old public high school boy made national newspaper headlines by suing (and winning) over the right to bring his boyfriend to the school prom. Throughout the 1980s, the phenomenon of AIDS and the need to combat its spread made it increasingly impossible to not discuss homosexuality in mainstream media. By the 1990s, the topic of gay teenagers "coming out" in high school was rather old news -- rarely worth a headline anymore -- having been discussed a million times on talk shows like Donahue and Oprah.

I might add that in the UK, they struck down anti-sodomy laws in 1967 -- 6 years after the banned-in-America film Victim, whose protagonist was a British gay man targeted by a blackmailer. And in the late 1960s, the "flamingly queer" characters of Julian and Sandy attained massive cult popularity on UK radio (ten years before "Mr. Humphries" on BBC TV).

In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One other thought I have for today. Back in January (when the law got its first reading in the Duma), I mentioned the recent death of an American woman named Jeanne Manford, the founder of America's first-ever group for heterosexuals who support gay rights, now known as PFLAG. Mrs. Manford began her efforts in 1972, three years after New York's "Stonewall Riots" in June 1969. Around 1973, the word "gay" in the sense of "homosexual" was used for the first time ever on a U.S. television network (the word had been "underground slang" since approximately the WW2 era). In 1977, on the sitcom All in the Family, Edith Bunker attends a cousin's funeral and learns that "Cousin Liz" had been in a relationship with another woman for 20 years or so. In 1980, an 18-year-old public high school boy made national newspaper headlines by suing (and winning) over the right to bring his boyfriend to the school prom. Throughout the 1980s, the phenomenon of AIDS and the need to combat its spread made it increasingly impossible to not discuss homosexuality in mainstream media. By the 1990s, the topic of gay teenagers "coming out" in high school was rather old news -- rarely worth a headline anymore -- having been discussed a million times on talk shows like Donahue and Oprah.

I might add that in the UK, they struck down anti-sodomy laws in 1967 -- 6 years after the banned-in-America film Victim, whose protagonist was a British gay man targeted by a blackmailer. And in the late 1960s, the "flamingly queer" characters of Julian and Sandy attained massive cult popularity on UK radio (ten years before "Mr. Humphries" on BBC TV).

In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

Part of the reason gays seem like they are so prominent in media right now is because they are still in the process of gaining equality, even in western societies. the United States has yet to make same-sex marriage legal at the federal level, although it is now legal in a few states (including my own) and several other western countries have legalized it, in Europe as well as South America. But gays were also silenced for decades, and so openly gay people on TV is still a relatively new phenomenon in the west. Once true equality is achieved, there will be less need for all the protests and hoopla. In fact, I am already hearing annoyance expressed by a growing number of people in the gay community itself, that gay people on TV are too flamboyant and over-the-top, and do not properly represent the LGTB community.

I'd like to add that so far no openly gay people have joined in on this thread either, but so what? Why would they want to come here and say "yes I'm gay" when there are so many people who would clearly judge them and think of them as "filthy" or less than human? It's been hard enough for me to openly engage in this discussion, and I'm not even gay! But in other threads, I have been attacked and insulted for saying the same things I have said here. In fact, off of MasterRussian I have been called some of the most disgusting slurs you can imagine, in both English and Russian. It's as if I am "filth by association" or something. I do not know what goes through people's minds. I have gay friends - but that doesn't mean I have sex with them anymore than I have sex with any of my heterosexual friends. They are just friends, and I support their right to be who they are and what they are, just as much as I stand up for my Russian friends when I hear Americans engage in Russophobia!

Up to a point, I can take it. I'm a tough girl after being a TV reporter for all those years... but dealing with all the anger and hate and judgement gets to even me after a while, and so I can't imagine how it would feel if I were gay. If I were gay, I doubt I would mention it here at all.