Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Seraph

Did you listen to what she said?

I did. If I understood correctly something changes in species' biology with the loss of natural environment. So it appears that civilization advances also impact humans' biology. And dear Jane is much in favor of slowing population growth.

Did you read the links I posted?

The biology is not changed, the genetics not changed. Behaviour and biology are not the same things. The interviewer actually was mistaken when he mentioned evolution, as that involves genetic change. People are confusing behavioural and biological things. Essentially Jane Goodall is saying something very important about some control groups. People are drawing incorrect conclusions about what are essentially experimental groups, as they are not paying attention, or don't understand what is being said about the control groups.

Originally Posted by Seraph

The biology is not changed, the genetics not changed. Behaviour and biology are not the same things. The interviewer actually was mistaken when he mentioned evolution, as that involves genetic change. People are confusing behavioural and biological things. Essentially Jane Goodall is saying something very important about some control groups. People are drawing incorrect conclusions about what are essentially experimental groups, as they are not paying attention, or don't understand what is being said about the control groups.

Не знаю, я не антрополог, но в Гугле есть что-то о биологических изменениях:

How City Living Is Changing Human Biology | IdeaFeed | Big Think

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs...nalCode=anthro

"Culture causes behavior by causing changes in our biology. ... is as much part of human biology as bipedal locomotion, and cultural and genetic influences on ... http://www.des.ucdavis.edu/faculty/R...eIsBiology.pdf

Is anybody tired of the fact that we don't hear each other? Гласы вопиющих в пустыне...

A more serious thought that occurred to me about the "are people born gay?" question. As Deborski, Lampada, and others living in the States can attest, so-called "ex-gay therapists" who claim that homosexuals can become heterosexual through a combination of prayer, faith, and Freudian psychoanalysis have been controversial for many years. And for the most part, they're controversial because such therapy hardly ever works as promised, and the number of dissatisfied clients goes into the tens of thousands.

For homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual because it conflicts with their religious faith, this ex-gay therapy may indeed help them to avoid homosexual activity, but it doesn't cause them to lose interest in the IDEA of sleeping with persons of the same sex -- nor does it cause them to develop an interest in heterosexual activity. They just become celibate gays, in other words, which is much less than what the ex-gay therapy advertises.

Anyway, I think it's worth noting that the clients of these ex-gay therapists are, in nearly all cases, gay men and women who were raised in extremely conservative religious environments; who spent their childhoods NOT seeing "pro-gay propaganda," and instead listening to preachers talk about how much Jesus hates the wicked sin of sodomy; but for some mysterious reason...

...they turned out totally homosexual anyway, and started to realize when they were 12 or 13 years old or so that falling in love with and kissing and sleeping with someone of the same sex sounded like the greatest possible thing in the entire world. No one put this idea into their head -- in fact, they grew up completely surrounded by the very opposite of this idea -- but they just knew. Or, rather, some unconscious part of their brainstem just knew it was true, automatically, on a level that transcended rational will. (When you're a 13-year-old boy sitting in algebra class, незваная эрекция хуже татарина -- why do so many people have trouble understanding this elementary fact, and what it implies about the alleged "choice" of sexual orientation?)

But anyway, I also wanted to recommend the documentary Trembling Before G-d, about gays and lesbians who came from a family background of so-called Ultra-Orthodox Jews -- also known as the haredim, which more or less means "they who tremble" in Hebrew. Not only are their religious views extremely conservative, but they are also known for their tendency to avoid the "secular" world and its media. In short, they grew up with practically zero exposure to the type of "homosexual propaganda" that the Russian government is trying to shield Russian kids from -- yet, по щучьему велению, they turned out gay.

Anyway, the documentary is made for a "general" audience -- i.e., you don't have to be familiar with gay life or Judaism or Ultra-Orthodoxy -- and it brings up some interesting points about, for example, the difference between "homosexuality" and "gay identity," and also examines the seeming mystery of why some gay people from extremely conservative and vocally homophobic religious cultures attempt to remain inside those cultural structures.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

For homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual because it conflicts with their religious faith, this ex-gay therapy may indeed help them to avoid homosexual activity, but it doesn't cause them to lose interest in the IDEA of sleeping with persons of the same sex -- nor does it cause them to develop an interest in heterosexual activity. They just become celibate gays, in other words, which is much less than what the ex-gay therapy advertises. ...

Какие "homosexual activity"? Тогда какие такие будут heterosexual activity?
Ужасно коробит, когда в разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс, как вроде бы это самое главное и отличительное в их жизни.
Мы уже давно знаем, что геи абсолютно обыкновенные люди, и для них, как и для не геев, главное - это встретить настоящую любовь и иметь романтические, серьёзные отношения.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ужасно коробит, когда в разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс, как вроде бы это самое главное и отличительное в их жизни.

Thank you for making this point, Lampada! However, in my post, I wanted to emphasize that people who are attracted to the same sex can make a choice to be "celibate" (is безврачный the correct term, here?) and still be homosexual -- just as people can be celibate and heterosexual. And there are millions of teenagers who are VIRGINS and have never had sexual contact with a person of the same sex nor of the opposite sex -- yet they're still homosexual -- just as there are heterosexual virgins.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Thank you for making this point, Lampada! However, in my post, I wanted to emphasize that people who are attracted to the same sex can make a choice to be "celibate" (is безврачный the correct term, here?) and still be homosexual -- just as people can be celibate and heterosexual. And there are millions of teenagers who are VIRGINS and have never had sexual contact with a person of the same sex nor of the opposite sex -- yet they're still homosexual -- just as there are heterosexual virgins.

Безбрачие (you must use a noun somehow)
Безврачный - is something about Самолечение — Википедия

I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar).

I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.)

Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

For "установка" , matching words are possibly "aim, guideline".
"формирование" could be "forming", "shaping", "organizing"
"навязывание" - forcing seems to be appropriate word. Do you remember how Баттерс навязывался в друзья к Стэну, Кайлу и Эрику (after Kenny died for real) ?


Not sure about any of words because of my poor, poor English

In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

Yes! "Мы перебесимся и станем как вы" (из фильма "Курьер")

I read about that documentary before, Thobert, but did not watch it yet. I have seen others. You're right that "gay therapy" doesn't work. It often leads to suicide. And not only is it harmful to the person who is trying not to be gay, it can also hurt a lot of other people, too. There are frequent stories in the news about conservative fundamentalist types involved in sexual scandals. Sometimes, they will marry women and have children so that they can maintain their "image" as a family man. They do this so that they can be accepted by conservative society, hold their jobs, make good money and live well. But at the same time, they will often have secret affairs with other closeted gays on the side, and sometimes these secrets are exposed on the news. I'm sure you've heard of the conservative politicians caught having sex with other men in airport bathrooms, etc. These stories actually happen with alarming frequency. This is devastating to their wives, their families and everyone they lied to. It would be a better world, I think, if they could just be openly gay and not deceive so many people!

Here is an article about just twenty-five of them, although if you google you can find hundreds. And often it is the most outspoken, virulently homophobic conservatives who ultimately turn out to be closet gays!

Gay Political Scandals: 25 Politicians Who Have Faced Claims About Their Sexuality

Ted Haggard also comes to mind. He was the raging, frothing-at-the-mouth homophobe and pastor of "New Life Church."

Disgraced pastor Haggard admits second relationship with man - CNN.com

I have no doubt that many people live double lives in Russia. In fact, Anton Krasovsky, a well-known television presenter, just lost his job after he came out on TV:

Антон Красовский:

Brave man, Krasovsky. He was punished severely by his employers and now he lives in fear for his life. But despite his fear, he came out anyway. I am in awe of his courage, really.

Russian TV Presenter Comes Out on Air, Gets Fired | Advocate.com

In this column, he explains why he came out in his own words, and he had the guts to say everything. Reading his story brought me to tears. So much courage!

I came out because gay people in Russia are suffering – it's time for courage | Anton Krasovsky | Comment is free | theguardian.com

>>>разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс
А как иначе оО. Вокруг этого, в сущности, вся проблема.

А по поводу пропаганды и ортодоксальных обществ... You can not avoid information nowadays. And. Many people can not fit properly in this world. Contradictions may cause interesting ways of thinking.

OK, This is the actual law everyone is talking about. There is no word 'gay' or 'homosexual' here)). I think there is no need to translate it?

Статья 6.21. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних
(введена Федеральным законом от 29.06.2013 N 135-ФЗ)

1. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток

2. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от пятидесяти тысяч до ста тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от ста тысяч до двухсот тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток.

3. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные иностранным гражданином или лицом без гражданства, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации либо административный арест на срок до пятнадцати суток с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации.

4. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные иностранным гражданином или лицом без гражданства с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа в размере от пятидесяти тысяч до ста тысяч рублей с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации либо административный арест на срок до пятнадцати суток с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации.

Originally Posted by alexsms

OK, This is the actual law everyone is talking about. There is no word 'gay' or 'homosexual' here)). I think there is no need to translate it?

Thanks for this link, alexsms!

I decided to translate Part 1 in its entirety, because I wanted to make sure I understood the legal terminology -- I had to leave a few words untranslated. And, also, the Russian sentence structure is a bit difficult to follow, so I added some line-breaks and bullet points for easier reading. The other 3 sections I translated only in summary, for anyone who was totally confused by Part 1, since so much of the language was the same as Part 1.
****
(1) The propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations among minors, expressed in the spreading of information directed toward the formirovanie among minors:

• of non-traditional sexual ustanovki ;

• [of the] attractiveness of non-traditional sexual relations;

• of a distorted conception about the equal social value of traditional and non-traditional sexual relations;

OR

• the navjazyvanie of information about non-traditional sexual relations, which causes an interest in such relationships,

in cases where these activities do not include criminally punishable activity, will result in administrative fines of [various specified amounts].

(2) The activities stipulated in part 1 of this article, when committed with the utilization of mass media and/or informational-telecom networks (including the Internet)... will result in [higher fines than described in part 1].

(3) When the activities in part 1 are committed by a foreigner or a person with no citizenship, the penalty may be an adminstrative fine OR 15 days in prison, AND expulsion from Russia.

(4) Foreigners who use mass-media or the Internet to commit the activities in part 1 may have to pay a monetary fine 10 times higher than in part 3 [although the 15-day imprisonment and the expulsion from Russia are the same].
****
And, by the way, I've used смайлики to add my own "editorial comments" about a few statements marked in red (I consider these phrases to be unbelievably naive about the nature of sexual orientation!)

I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar).

I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.)

Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

Overall, I must say that this certainly isn't as bad as the proposed law (unsuccessful!) that they tried to pass in Oregon way back in 1992: "All levels of government, including public education systems, must assist in setting a standard for Oregon's youth which recognizes that [homosexuality is] abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse."

Which is to say, at least the Russian law doesn't MANDATE homophobia, even though it makes it more difficult for homosexuals to speak publicly in their own defense.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar).

I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.)

Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

Формирование means "forming of these 'non-traditional' ideas, attitudes in a child'. Yes, grammatically these 3 words connect to формирование.
Установка is a term used in psychology. It means 'established attitude towards something, established idea or thought. In pure sense it's not 'mores', it's related to 'norms' resulting from such attitudes. The word 'attitude' is enough to explain this word.
Навязывание is 'forcing' or trying to present any information, any thing, trying to sell something when the other party doesn't want to listen to this information and not interested, have no time, etc. Distribution of ad flyers in the street could be an example. Навязывание implies that the doer tries to do it in an active way. Captive audience is a nice way of saying it too.

Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

не хватило мужской силы

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/wo...pagewanted=all

From the article:

Mixed signals from senior Russian officials over how the propaganda law might be enforced during the Games have undercut assertions by the International Olympic Committee that gay athletes and spectators have nothing to worry about, and have left organizing officials facing harsh criticism and demanding clarifications from the Kremlin.

There have been comparisons to Nazi Germany as host of the 1936 Olympics inside and outside Russia, including one by Jay Leno during an interview with President Obama last week on “The Tonight Show.”

“Something that shocked me about Russia,” Mr. Leno told the president. “Suddenly, homosexuality is against the law. I mean, this seems like Germany: Let’s round up the Jews. Let’s round up the gays. Let’s round up the blacks. I mean, it starts with that.”

Mr. Obama, on Mr. Leno’s show and again at a White House news conference on Friday, noted that Russia was not alone in its treatment of gay people, but he denounced the legislation and said he expected Mr. Putin and the Russian government to prevent any discrimination in Sochi.

“I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgendered persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them,” he told Mr. Leno. At the White House, Mr. Obama said he opposed a boycott of the Games, but added, “Nobody is more offended than me by some of the antigay and lesbian legislation that you’ve been seeing in Russia.”

Russian officials say the criticism is unfair and inaccurate. In 1993, Russia repealed the Soviet-era law that made gay sex a crime.

“This is not about imposing any kind of sanctions against homosexuality,” Mr. Putin said, defending the propaganda law at a news conference in June. “This is about protecting children.”

He added: “The law does not in any way infringe on the rights of sexual minorities. They are full-fledged members of our society and are not being discriminated against in any way.”

Gay rights advocates disagree, saying the law is vague and can be used to arrest anyone who appears to support gay rights.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors.

Behold, the horror of these painted nails!



As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about! Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag! In fact - worse than that! It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

Originally Posted by Deborski

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors.

Behold, the horror of these painted nails!



As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about! Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag! In fact - worse than that! It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

Judging from the first comments on top, most of the Russians there (if not all) gave their support to the Swedish athlete, and condemned the Russian one for what she said (in fact, it looks more like they were mocking her and making fun of her for that)

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Judging from the first comments on top, most of the Russians there (if not all) gave their support to the Swedish athlete, and condemned the Russian one for what she said (in fact, it looks more like they were mocking her and making fun of her for that)

Cool! Looks like there have been some additional comments added since I posted. Glad to see that. I especially liked this one - great sarcasm:

Елена, иди в думу и напиши такой закон, чтобы тебе спасибо сказали все последующие поколения, которых ты оградишь от этой мерзости .

Originally Posted by Deborski

For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors.

Behold, the horror of these painted nails!

As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about! Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag! In fact - worse than that! It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

When I read the phrase "rainbow nails", I was thinking of something more like this, with little tiny rainbow stripes on EACH nail:

The "official" gay flag has exactly SIX colors: красный, оранжевый, жёлтый, зелёный, синий, фиолетовый. (Ironically, in the context of this thread, the colors розовый and голубой DO NOT APPEAR on the flag!) There are also "non-gay" rainbow flags with more than six colors (the "peace rainbow" flag sometimes has 7 or 8 stripes).

If the athlete hadn't posted her picture with the tag #pride, I would never have guessed that this was some sort of gay propaganda, since her nails appear to have only three colors, and not a "whole rainbow". So, evidently, more than two colors + the word "pride" = insult to Russian feelings.