Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

I read about that documentary before, Thobert, but did not watch it yet. I have seen others. You're right that "gay therapy" doesn't work. It often leads to suicide. And not only is it harmful to the person who is trying not to be gay, it can also hurt a lot of other people, too. There are frequent stories in the news about conservative fundamentalist types involved in sexual scandals. Sometimes, they will marry women and have children so that they can maintain their "image" as a family man. They do this so that they can be accepted by conservative society, hold their jobs, make good money and live well. But at the same time, they will often have secret affairs with other closeted gays on the side, and sometimes these secrets are exposed on the news. I'm sure you've heard of the conservative politicians caught having sex with other men in airport bathrooms, etc. These stories actually happen with alarming frequency. This is devastating to their wives, their families and everyone they lied to. It would be a better world, I think, if they could just be openly gay and not deceive so many people!

Here is an article about just twenty-five of them, although if you google you can find hundreds. And often it is the most outspoken, virulently homophobic conservatives who ultimately turn out to be closet gays!

Gay Political Scandals: 25 Politicians Who Have Faced Claims About Their Sexuality

Ted Haggard also comes to mind. He was the raging, frothing-at-the-mouth homophobe and pastor of "New Life Church."

Disgraced pastor Haggard admits second relationship with man - CNN.com

I have no doubt that many people live double lives in Russia. In fact, Anton Krasovsky, a well-known television presenter, just lost his job after he came out on TV:

Антон Красовский:

Brave man, Krasovsky. He was punished severely by his employers and now he lives in fear for his life. But despite his fear, he came out anyway. I am in awe of his courage, really.

Russian TV Presenter Comes Out on Air, Gets Fired | Advocate.com

In this column, he explains why he came out in his own words, and he had the guts to say everything. Reading his story brought me to tears. So much courage!

I came out because gay people in Russia are suffering – it's time for courage | Anton Krasovsky | Comment is free | theguardian.com

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

For homosexuals who don't want to be homosexual because it conflicts with their religious faith, this ex-gay therapy may indeed help them to avoid homosexual activity, but it doesn't cause them to lose interest in the IDEA of sleeping with persons of the same sex -- nor does it cause them to develop an interest in heterosexual activity. They just become celibate gays, in other words, which is much less than what the ex-gay therapy advertises. ...

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Какие "homosexual activity"? Тогда какие такие будут heterosexual activity?
Ужасно коробит, когда в разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс, как вроде бы это самое главное и отличительное в их жизни.
Мы уже давно знаем, что геи абсолютно обыкновенные люди, и для них, как и для не геев, главное - это встретить настоящую любовь и иметь романтические, серьёзные отношения.

>>>разговорах о геях сразу притаскивают секс
А как иначе оО. Вокруг этого, в сущности, вся проблема.

А по поводу пропаганды и ортодоксальных обществ... You can not avoid information nowadays. And. Many people can not fit properly in this world. Contradictions may cause interesting ways of thinking.

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Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

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You mean not enough Jews for a Bar Mitzvah?

OK, This is the actual law everyone is talking about. There is no word 'gay' or 'homosexual' here)). I think there is no need to translate it?

Статья 6.21. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних
(введена Федеральным законом от 29.06.2013 N 135-ФЗ)

1. Пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений среди несовершеннолетних, выразившаяся в распространении информации, направленной на формирование у несовершеннолетних нетрадиционных сексуальных установок, привлекательности нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, искаженного представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений, либо навязывание информации о нетрадиционных сексуальных отношениях, вызывающей интерес к таким отношениям, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влечет наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от сорока тысяч до пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - от восьмисот тысяч до одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток

2. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере от пятидесяти тысяч до ста тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - от ста тысяч до двухсот тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - одного миллиона рублей либо административное приостановление деятельности на срок до девяноста суток.

3. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные иностранным гражданином или лицом без гражданства, если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа в размере от четырех тысяч до пяти тысяч рублей с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации либо административный арест на срок до пятнадцати суток с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации.

4. Действия, предусмотренные частью 1 настоящей статьи, совершенные иностранным гражданином или лицом без гражданства с применением средств массовой информации и (или) информационно-телекоммуникационных сетей (в том числе сети "Интернет"), если эти действия не содержат уголовно наказуемого деяния, -влекут наложение административного штрафа в размере от пятидесяти тысяч до ста тысяч рублей с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации либо административный арест на срок до пятнадцати суток с административным выдворением за пределы Российской Федерации.

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Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

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не хватило мужской силы


:D

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Originally Posted by Deborski

The difference between chewing gum in Singapore, or talking about politics in Northern Ireland, or not wearing a burkha in a Muslim country versus not "making a homosexual manifestation in Russia" - is that the first three examples are behaviors which one can choose to refrain from. Being gay is not a behavior, it is an identity.

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Yes, but haven't you checked what the law is about?
It's NOT outlawing actually BEING homosexual, having homosexual relations or going to gay bars..

It's some specific acts that it is referring to, that anybody gay or straight, could refrain from doing.

Just like I can go to Lebanon and refrain from wearing shorts and a tank top, or go to Germany and refrain from constantly bring up the war. Or in the case of Russia; refrain from making a gay manifestation even if I happened to be gay.

A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.

However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.

I agree that if it was illegal to actually BE gay, then that would be wrong, since gay people for the most part cannot change.

The article goes on to explain that Rusisan lawmakers essentially don't care about foreign views on this as they are trying to please their own "deeply conservative" public about this, and the law is reflecting public opinion in Russia.

So why would we respect public opinion when we visit North Africa, Northern Ireland and lots of other countries that have quirks.... but not Russia?

Take the example of Saudi Arabia where all women visting or working there (my sister did, for example) are forced to wrap themselves up in full moslem gear. She didn't like it, but she had chosen to work there and was aware that any other form of dress would have been offensive and against the law. That is a much more radical example of a country that is very rarely critisized. The Russian law is not forcing people to wear special clothing or anything dramatic like that; nor is it meddling in people's private lives, only in how they behave in public.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Yes, but haven't you checked what the law is about?
It's NOT outlawing actually BEING homosexual, having homosexual relations or going to gay bars..

It's some specific acts that it is referring to, that anybody gay or straight, could refrain from doing.

Just like I can go to Lebanon and refrain from wearing shorts and a tank top, or go to Germany and refrain from constantly bring up the war. Or in the case of Russia; refrain from making a gay manifestation even if I happened to be gay.

A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.

However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.

I agree that if it was illegal to actually BE gay, then that would be wrong, since gay people for the most part cannot change.

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Yes, I saw Alex's post about the law. It's a semantics game, Hanna.

It's like saying that it's not illegal for you to be a woman. But if you use tampons, or maxipads, or if you wear dresses or makeup or if you speak about women's rights, you are spreading "propaganda" and should be arrested. In other words, you can be female, but don't let anyone know you are female or we will arrest you.

It's similar to the "don't ask don't tell" policy America's military used to have. It wasn't a crime to be gay, but telling anyone you were gay was a crime.

In some ways, this new law is even worse than the old Soviet law which simply made it a crime to be gay, because it is extremely ambiguous. Painting rainbows on someone's fingernails shouldn't matter, shouldn't offend anyone, and certainly shouldn't be interpreted as "propaganda" - and yet, it can be. It all depends on who is doing the interpreting. Is it the prosecutor, as Throbert asked? Or is it the responsibility of the "suspect" to prove it is not propaganda?

And anyway, beyond the ambiguous wording of the law, there is an undeniable hostility towards gay people right now, as exemplified by all of the articles and pictures already posted in this thread. The Orthodox Church appears to gives tacit, but unspoken, approval of the persecution of gays, much as churches in America give passive support of individuals who bomb abortion clinics and murder gynecologists.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Yes, but haven't you checked what the law is about?
It's NOT outlawing actually BEING homosexual, having homosexual relations or going to gay bars..

It's some specific acts that it is referring to, that anybody gay or straight, could refrain from doing.

Just like I can go to Lebanon and refrain from wearing shorts and a tank top, or go to Germany and refrain from constantly bring up the war. Or in the case of Russia; refrain from making a gay manifestation even if I happened to be gay.

A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.

However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.

I agree that if it was illegal to actually BE gay, then that would be wrong, since gay people for the most part cannot change.

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Thank you for agreeing and understanding that gay people cannot change. (Most of them at some point would wish they could).
Their problem though, interestingly enough, is that sometimes gay people are not difficult to recognize even without any gay manifestion.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Thank you for agreeing and understanding that gay people cannot change. (Most of them at some point would wish they could).
Their problem though, interestingly enough, is that sometimes gay people are not difficult to recognize even without any gay manifestion.

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That is so true, Lampada. A close friend of mine is a lesbian and she has told me all about her life and how hard it has been. She often wished she did not have to be gay. She was in the closet for many years and even married a man and had two sons, then later came out of the closet and admitted she was only sexually attracted to women. It took her years to get to the place where she finally found the courage to be honest about who she was. Her sons, by the way, are good kids! One of them is a skydiving instructor. The other one works for a company in Germany. Despite all that their family went through, they stuck together and supported each other.

Forcing people to hid who they are creates more problems than it solves, in my opinion. There are stories in the US media almost every day about some famous conservative politician who has a wife and kids and makes a ton of money, who turns out to be gay.

I could understand if Russia had passed laws against public expressions of pornography (gay or otherwise), or if they had had passed laws against public indecency, running around naked in public, or publicly displaying sexual toys like dildos, etc. But instead, the laws are about "пропаганда нетрадиционных сексуальных отношений".... what does that even mean, "non-traditional"....? Is a live-in arrangement where the couple is not formally married "non-traditional"? It's just so ambiguous.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/wo...pagewanted=all

From the article:

Mixed signals from senior Russian officials over how the propaganda law might be enforced during the Games have undercut assertions by the International Olympic Committee that gay athletes and spectators have nothing to worry about, and have left organizing officials facing harsh criticism and demanding clarifications from the Kremlin.

There have been comparisons to Nazi Germany as host of the 1936 Olympics inside and outside Russia, including one by Jay Leno during an interview with President Obama last week on “The Tonight Show.”

“Something that shocked me about Russia,” Mr. Leno told the president. “Suddenly, homosexuality is against the law. I mean, this seems like Germany: Let’s round up the Jews. Let’s round up the gays. Let’s round up the blacks. I mean, it starts with that.”

Mr. Obama, on Mr. Leno’s show and again at a White House news conference on Friday, noted that Russia was not alone in its treatment of gay people, but he denounced the legislation and said he expected Mr. Putin and the Russian government to prevent any discrimination in Sochi.

“I have no patience for countries that try to treat gays or lesbians or transgendered persons in ways that intimidate them or are harmful to them,” he told Mr. Leno. At the White House, Mr. Obama said he opposed a boycott of the Games, but added, “Nobody is more offended than me by some of the antigay and lesbian legislation that you’ve been seeing in Russia.”

Russian officials say the criticism is unfair and inaccurate. In 1993, Russia repealed the Soviet-era law that made gay sex a crime.

“This is not about imposing any kind of sanctions against homosexuality,” Mr. Putin said, defending the propaganda law at a news conference in June. “This is about protecting children.”

He added: “The law does not in any way infringe on the rights of sexual minorities. They are full-fledged members of our society and are not being discriminated against in any way.”

Gay rights advocates disagree, saying the law is vague and can be used to arrest anyone who appears to support gay rights.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors.

Behold, the horror of these painted nails!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...96885266_n.jpg

As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about! Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag! In fact - worse than that! It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

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A Swedish female athlete competed in Russia today and had a rainbow manicure which she showed off after she jumped. Nothing, of course, happened.

However Elena Isinbayeva, the Russian gold medalist said it was insensitive and showing a lack of respect for her country.

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How can it possibly be showing disrespect to a country? (or any particular person at all)

I do want to thank all the people on this thread who have kept this discussion civil! I know how volatile this issue is. It is nice to be able to discuss it without delving into a flamefest of name-calling and character assassination. Thanks everyone who has the maturity to agree to disagree.

And Hanna, I really do respect and appreciate the honesty it took to admit that gay people cannot change.

Swedish Athletes Sport Rainbow Nails In Moscow

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...3b2_story.html

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Originally Posted by Deborski

Swedish Athletes Sport Rainbow Nails In Moscow

World champion Isinbayeva condemns homosexuality, criticizes Swedes for rainbow-colored nails - The Washington Post

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I would consider it huge disrespect for myself if I was spoken for in such a manner. Is anyone entitled to manipulating other people's opinions which they don't even have a clue of? (speaking "for the nation" is really a bright example of this) How do you Russian people even put up with things like that?

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Originally Posted by Deborski

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

For those who have Facebook, this is a fascinating discussion about the Swedish athlete who dared to paint her nails in rainbow colors.

Behold, the horror of these painted nails!

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...96885266_n.jpg

As we can all see, it is clearly something to be outraged about! Judging from the litany of hateful comments on the photo, you would think that she publicly urinated on the Russian flag! In fact - worse than that! It's as if she is a terrorist blowing up buildings or something!

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Judging from the first comments on top, most of the Russians there (if not all) gave their support to the Swedish athlete, and condemned the Russian one for what she said (in fact, it looks more like they were mocking her and making fun of her for that)

I've no doubt, my sudden appearance in this thread will close it for sure.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

Judging from the first comments on top, most of the Russians there (if not all) gave their support to the Swedish athlete, and condemned the Russian one for what she said (in fact, it looks more like they were mocking her and making fun of her for that)

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Cool! Looks like there have been some additional comments added since I posted. Glad to see that. I especially liked this one - great sarcasm:

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Елена, иди в думу и напиши такой закон, чтобы тебе спасибо сказали все последующие поколения, которых ты оградишь от этой мерзости .

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Homophobic Men Most Aroused by Gay Male Porn | Psychology Today

From this article:

One study asked heterosexal men how comfortable and anxious they are around gay men. Based on these scores, they then divided these men into two groups: men that are homophobic, and men who are not. These men were then shown three, four-minute videos. One video depicted straight sex, one depicted lesbian sex and one depicted gay male sex. While this was happening, a device was attached to each participant's penis. This device has been found to be triggered by sexual arousal, but not other types of arousal (such as nervousness, or fear - arousal often has a very different meaning in psychology than in popular usage).

When viewing lesbian sex and straight sex, both the homophobic and the non-homophobic men showed increased penis circumference. For gay male sex, however, only the homophobic men showed heightened penis arousal.

Heterosexual men with the most anti-gay attitudes, when asked, reported not being sexually aroused by gay male sex videos. But, their penises reported otherwise.

Homophobic men were the most sexually aroused by gay male sex acts.