Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Hanna

But it's a historical fact that civilisations that embrace homosexuality and become obsessed with money start to rot from within. Ancient Greece, Rome and pre-revolutionary France are well known examples.

This statement is questionable for at least three reasons:

(1) Has there ever been a civilization that wasn't "obsessed" with money? I would say that caring about money is that's practically a pre-requisite for being civilized.

2) What does it mean to "embrace" homosexuality? I'm not sure exactly which examples you're talking about in France, but certainly in the loooong histories of classical Greece and Rome, homosexuality was tolerated under certain conditions, mocked in other conditions -- and the degrees of tolerance, when such existed, varied from one era to another.

(3) Christianity became the state religion of Imperial Rome in 380 AD; Rome was conquered and looted TWICE within the next century (410 by the Visigoths and 455 by the Vandals). By your logical standards, then, the embrace of Christianity caused the internal rot of this once-mighty pagan empire much more quickly and devastatingly than any "embrace of homosexuality" did.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

You mean not enough Jews for a Bar Mitzvah?

Am I the only one here who's wondering why the Russian officials made such extended use of the word "gay" in the law? They could've stated it as "public expression of one's sexual views or their propaganda to minors is illegal", and no one would've been offended; why did they decide to split the society by making statements like that in the law?

Democracy is not the same as dictatorship by the majority. It is founded on the principle that everyone is equal before the law. The principle of majority rule does not supersede that. The majority cannot vote to deny the minority's human rights.

Also it's not about holding gay pride parades. It's about laws that specifically target a group of people for discrimination.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Not enough gays for a gay parade. This phrase alone gives me creeps.

I live in a small city with my parents and the largest building here is 10 stories tall - I think we have 3 buildings that tall but most of the buildings are really old, especially downtown. The most popular music is country music or classic rock - It's not easy to check out new music here but we do get one radio station that has it, yay! Oh, and the most popular sports are American football and rodeo.
Trust me, this isn't a city that gay people want to live in. We saw 2 gay dudes in a shop and when we walked in, they stopped talking and looked kinda worried. Now they keep talking in front of me but only if I'm alone.
My State is one of the most anti-gay states in America.
Did you see what happened at the gay parade in Russia? That happens a lot here but there aren't any gay parades.

Originally Posted by John_Douglas

Democracy is not the same as dictatorship by the majority. It is founded on the principle that everyone is equal before the law. The principle of majority rule does not supersede that. The majority cannot vote to deny the minority's human rights.

Also it's not about holding gay pride parades. It's about laws that specifically target a group of people for discrimination.

Wrong. That's not the definition of democracy.

THE MERRIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY:
de·moc·ra·cy \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\ government by the people; especially : rule of the majority.

THE OXFORD DICTIONARY:
de·moc·ra·cy \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\ Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.
From the French démocratie, from Late Latin dēmocratia, from Greek dēmokratia government by the people (As opposed to monarchy).

Democracy is NOT about equality. It's only about self government. The Constitution of the United States of America is NOT about equality. And it doesn't even mention equality.
The ONLY American political document that even discusses equality is the American Declaration of Independence.
Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome were also democracies. That type of government was invented in Ancient Greece but the people were NOT treated as equals.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text
Declaration of Independence - Text Transcript
History of democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A lot of what I study is Military History. The American Revolution, the military campaigns of Alexander the Great, and the rise and fall of the Roman Empire are part of those studies.
Btw, if you read the U.S. Constiution, you will learn that a unanimous vote is NEVER required to pass a law - unless it's about an amendment to the Constitution.
Translation - All American laws were passed by the majority of the people, NOT by everybody. And a lot of those laws DO TARGET minorities for discrimination.
Some groups that American laws target: Nudists (indecent exposure), exhibitionists (sex in public), alcoholics (DUI), people attracted to animals (beastiality laws), Mormons (can only have 1 wife), etc etc etc etc.

Russia does not discriminate against gays and it doesn't oppress them either. Russia only discriminates against exhibitionism.
And btw, if the word "gay" was used a lot in that new law, then maybe it was because the heterosexuals weren't the people who were making all the drama about sex.

This all seems very un-spontaneous and almost forced.

Interesting, who is behind this all.
Quote from my favorite American film "Big Lebowski":
"It's all a goddamn fake. Like Lenin said, look for the person who will benefit. And you will, uh, you know, you'll, uh, you know what I'm trying to say.."

Well, I for one do not support a boycott.

I would like to see gay athletes perform FABULOUSLY in Sochi with their heads held high! I hope they win some gold and break some stereotypes!

Too many people confuse pedophilia with homosexuality and it is patently NOT the same thing.

A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to small children. Pedophiles can be straight or gay. In fact, I had a "discussion" with one pedophile (a Russian heterosexual man) right here at MR who openly (and proudly!) stated that he likes to go to Thailand and pay for sex with girls under the age of 13. He said that he prefers girls before they "ripen" and that a man should try to marry a little girl before she reaches puberty, so that he can "mold her" to himself. And he thinks that is "natural." He even bragged about how many virgins he has "deflowered" - one of them, he said, was just nine years old.

Of course, I was disgusted and horrified at this individual's blatant advocacy of pedophilia and I blocked him. But I know that a lot of people would agree with him and see absolutely nothing wrong with forcing a little girl to have sex - while at the same time denouncing homosexuality as "unnatural" and "evil" and "harmful to children." This reasoning makes no sense to me.

Those of you who claim to be worried about your kids, are going after the wrong group of people.

I could understand laws against pedophilia because pedophiles sexually ABUSE children! But if adults want to have gay sex with other adults, why should anyone care? It's hypocritical to be all up in arms about gays while turning a blind eye to pedophiles. And pedophilia is rampant in the Russian Orthodox Church, just as it is in the Catholic Church, as Alexander Nevzorov recently pointed out.

Originally Posted by Deborski

And pedophilia is rampant in the Russian Orthodox Church, just as it is in the Catholic Church, as Alexander Nevzorov recently pointed out.

Sorry, but that's a bullsh!t. Who is that Nevzorov guy? That clown who used to broadcast "600 seconds" at Leningrad TV channel back in the end of 1980s - early 1990s? He was typical "The Onion"-tier journalist back then. Never heard about him since. Orthodox priests don't have to keep celibate like Catholic priests, most of them are married and have many children. Only Orthodox monks must keep celibate. I never heard about a single pedophile scandal in Russian Orthodox church. I'm not implying that there weren't any cases but for sure it can not be compared to what has happen at Catholic church. And pedophilia is A CRIME that is punished by Russian law. Anyone who try to claim that it's normal should be jailed immediately. I don't see any problem here.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Sorry, but that's a bullsh!t. Who is that Nevzorov guy? That clown who used to broadcast "600 seconds" at Leningrad TV channel back in the end of 1980s - early 1990s? He was typical "The Onion"-tier journalist back then. Never heard about him since. Orthodox priests don't have to keep celibate like Catholic priests, most of them are married and have many children. Only Orthodox monks must keep celibate. I never heard about a single pedophile scandal in Russian Orthodox church. I'm not implying that there weren't any cases but for sure it can not be compared to what has happen at Catholic church. And pedophilia is A CRIME that is punished by Russian law. Anyone who try to claim that it's normal should be jailed immediately. I don't see any problem here.

And immediately the insults begin. Can you begin any sentence with something other than an insult, when you disagree? And why insult me? Simply because I have an opposing view? I did not see you insulting or attacking the pedophile who was bragging about raping 13 year old girls...

This is why I do not care to discuss this subject on this forum. I get that you are angry about some myth about gay people "taking over your country" but I am not going to be fodder for you to attack.

Alexander Nevzorov is a distinguished journalist and war correspondent whom I had the great honor and privilege of working with in Leningrad many years ago. I am very encouraged to see that he is still speaking his mind and has not been shut down by the frothing-at-the-mouth religious right which wants to force everyone to believe exactly as they do. So naturally, you felt compelled to immediately denigrate his character and insult him too.

It's a pity that so many people on TV these days, in Russia and in America, are just loudmouthed shills for populist views. Nevzorov has integrity, and that is exemplified by his ability to stand firmly for the truth even when the majority disagree.

Originally Posted by Deborski

And immediately the insults begin. Can you begin any sentence with something other than an insult, when you disagree? And why insult me? Simply because I have an opposing view? I did not see you insulting or attacking the pedophile who was bragging about raping 13 year old girls...

This is why I do not care to discuss this subject on this forum. I get that you are angry about some myth about gay people "taking over your country" but I am not going to be fodder for you to attack.

Alexander Nevzorov is a distinguished journalist and war correspondent whom I had the great honor and privilege of working with in Leningrad many years ago. I am very encouraged to see that he is still speaking his mind and has not been shut down by the frothing-at-the-mouth religious right which wants to force everyone to believe exactly as they do. So naturally, you felt compelled to immediately denigrate his character and insult him too.

It's a pity that so many people on TV these days, in Russia and in America, are just loudmouthed shills for populist views. Nevzorov has integrity, and that is exemplified by his ability to stand firmly for the truth even when the majority disagree.

I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

Originally Posted by Basil77

I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

Well, I was acquainted with Nevzorov in Leningrad. I did not work closely with him, and I did not see this series about prostitution which you are describing. I did see the expose he did about equestrian sports, and I was impressed with that because I was very involved with equestrian sports when I was a teenager and everything he said about it is true. People beat horses and treat them horribly, all for the sake of winning a gold medal.

We can agree to disagree regarding gar rights. I only ask that we treat each other respectfully. Once the insults start flying, it causes me anxiety and I will usually leave the conversation.

This is an excellent movie about Matthew Shepard, the gay man who was beaten, tortured and killed in Colorado several years ago. His story was a major turning point for the gay rights movement in the United States. In my younger years, I was homophobic (thanks to religious indoctrination) and as I grew older I remained ambivalent. But this story really changed my thinking on many levels. I realized that gay people are who they are, and beating them or persecuting will never change them. I fear that Russia will have a few Matthew Shepards of its own before attitudes in Russia change. But I do have faith that most Russians do not approve of violence or cruelty, and that eventually Russia's attitude towards gay people will change. It may be many years before this happens, but I believe that some day it will.

I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go even here, where gay people are gaining rights, because gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes even in our "land of the free." And I am always the first to say when I think America does wrong - such as in the case of our global military aggression. But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

boycotted Russia by pouring out their Stoli, even though exported Stolichnaya Premium Vodka is made in the independent country of Latvia.

just what Latvia's long tortured economy needs! It's probably their biggest export product, along with cheap underwear.
very sad!




Vandalised street crossing outside the Russian embassy in Stockholm.
Too bad these brainwashed losers couldn't find their way to the Saudi embassy, where it would make a lot more sense to protest!

In my childhood they were obsessed about antiimperialst struggles in the 3rd world. Then it was multiculturalism and immigration (SO cool and awesome) and now it's homosexuality.... You cannot open a paper without reading about it, article after article. It's totally insane and has lost all proportions.

The latest insane idea: Not only can people get a free sex change in the state medical care for the last 15 years. But those who got it previously had to get sterilised as the one condition for receiving this super expensive treatment for free.
But now some genius has come up with the idea that this was discriminatory and these sex changed people will get massive compensation payments. All this from the tax payers money, while pensioners have to wait months for hip replacement surgery or weeks for urgently needed heart surgery.

The latest insane idea: Not only can people get a free sex change in the state medical care for the last 15 years. But those who got it previously had to get sterilised as the one condition for receiving this super expensive treatment for free.

Hmmm. I would've guessed that sterilization is ALWAYS required -- not to prevent them from having kids, but because the testicles and ovaries are the source of the sex hormones that self-identified transsexuals consider to be THE WRONG KIND! For example, M-to-F transsexuals don't want the testosterone that their testicles are making -- they want estrogen, and in fact it's usual for MTFs to receive estrogen by injections. So I would've guessed that removing the testicles or ovaries would be the very first step! Plus, if you're a man trying to pass as a woman, why would you want to have a pair of яйца dangling unaesthetically between your legs?

But possibly I was wrong -- some Googling gives me the impression that some FTMs don't bother having their ovaries removed; they just receive estrogen-blocking shots. Taking out the ovaries not only adds to the cost, but also, obviously, is totally non-reversible, whereas injections can be discontinued. (And, apparently, some self-identified transsexuals do in fact change their minds partway through the long therapy process.)

Everything that people do depends on biochemistry, but that does not mean that biochemistry is causing everything. Identifiable non-biochemical factors are evident.

Originally Posted by Seraph

Everything that people do depends on biochemistry, but that does not mean that biochemistry is causing everything. Identifiable non-biochemical factors are evident.

I've got to log off in a few minutes, but I'll say quickly: I agree that non-biochemical factors, including childhood socialization, are at work both in heterosexual and homosexual development. But I suspect that sexual orientation -- and gender behavior, and the subjective awareness of "being male" or "being female" -- all have biochemical roots that begin to take shape even before birth. (We KNOW that this things can be instinctive in animals whose brains are too simple to think about abstractions like "femaleness" or "opposite-sex-ness"; and it seems improbable to me that after millions of years of evolution, such instincts would have simply disappeared in recent human evolution.)

I would also insist on the point that although "What causes heterosexuality??" is a question that most people -- even some scientists -- forget to ask, it's just the other side of the same coin as "What causes homosexuality??" Both questions should be asked at the same time, and understanding the neurological basis of the normal case (heterosexuality) will indirectly shed light on the mystery of homosexuality.

Those of you who claim to be worried about your kids, are going after the wrong group of people.

Just to be a devil's advocate, I'm prepared to admit that in some ways, Gay Pride Parades -- and gay culture in general -- can be Bad For Kids. But, more specifically, they're potentially bad for HOMOSEXUAL kids, while not necessarily being of danger to HETEROSEXUAL kids.

I mean, to the extent that gay culture encourages promiscuous behavior, for instance, it's mostly "LGBT youth" who are likely to hear this siren-song and possibly behave promiscuously; straight youth don't really pay much attention to the messages that come from gay celebrities and gay media and gay parades. (Of course, heterosexual youth are also exposed to "pro-promiscuity" messages, but in general, THEY get such messages from mainstream heterosexual culture, and not from gay parades.)

But even while there are problems within gay culture and reasons for objecting to a lot of the stuff that occurs in Pride Parades, I hope it goes without saying that I do not give the Russian government an atom of credit for acting out of genuine concern for the ~3% of Russian teenagers who are coming to grips with their own homosexuality. Rather, they're fixated on the notion that heterosexual kids will pick up the "habit" of sodomy the way other pick up the habits of vodka and nicotine -- by trying it, because they saw it advertised on TV.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Just to be a devil's advocate, I'm prepared to admit that in some ways, Gay Pride Parades -- and gay culture in general -- can be Bad For Kids. But, more specifically, they're potentially bad for HOMOSEXUAL kids, while not necessarily being of danger to HETEROSEXUAL kids.

I mean, to the extent that gay culture encourages promiscuous behavior, for instance, it's mostly "LGBT youth" who are likely to hear this siren-song and possibly behave promiscuously; straight youth don't really pay much attention to the messages that come from gay celebrities and gay media and gay parades. (Of course, heterosexual youth are also exposed to "pro-promiscuity" messages, but in general, THEY get such messages from mainstream heterosexual culture, and not from gay parades.)

But even while there are problems within gay culture and reasons for objecting to a lot of the stuff that occurs in Pride Parades, I hope it goes without saying that I do not give the Russian government an atom of credit for acting out of genuine concern for the ~3% of Russian teenagers who are coming to grips with their own homosexuality. Rather, they're fixated on the notion that heterosexual kids will pick up the "habit" of sodomy the way other pick up the habits of vodka and nicotine -- by trying it, because they saw it advertised on TV.

Most gay people I know are fed up with all the over-the-top flamboyancy too. They are just people, and they get tired of being stereotyped as "swishy" or as "drama queens" or whatever else. Those stereotypes do not speak for the vast majority of gays and lesbians, who just aren't all that "fabulous" really. They don't like being singled out. I'm sure my friends would agree that promiscuity is not a good thing to teach children. That said, there are different kinds of gay pride parades. I've taken part in some of them to show solidarity for my friends, and I didn't see any of the over-the-top, in-your-face wackiness that has been part of other parades.

But that said, I think a lot of people DO confuse homosexuality with pedophilia and have unfounded fears that gay people want to molest their children. That was the main point of my comment, because it seems that pedophilia is accepted and even condoned in some quarters whereas homosexuality is scapegoated and largely misunderstood. The individual who was bragging about all the little baby girls he slept with in Thailand, said that there are many men who are exactly like him, and I don't doubt it. I do not want to downplay the danger of allowing pedophiles to run free under the guise of it being "natural" to have sex with little girls. I found it disturbing that I was the only one on that thread who disagreed with him and told him how disgusting he was. I hear so many people say they are worried about their kids, and yet not a single person other than myself, was upset or concerned about this guy who was openly and proudly a pedophile. But mention gay rights and suddenly all hell breaks loose!

OK, regardless of everyone's views on gay rights - I am trying to get to the bottom of what is going on concerning the rules and their application during the games in Sochi.

There appears to be a major disconnect between what I am seeing in Russian news sources versus what I am seeing in American news media.

Most of the Russian news stories posted this week state that the new laws will not be enforced during the Olympics in Sochi.

But most of the American stories I am reading say that the laws will be enforced.

I'm not sure where the disconnect lies. It appears that different officials in Russia are saying different things. Alexander Zhukov, head of the Russian Olympic Committee, insists that gay rights will not be "interfered with" - if I am translating this correctly - except in the case of foreigners openly "propagandizing" minors.

Жуков пообещал не ущемлять права геев в Сочи -

But according to an English-edition article from RIA Novosti, which all the American news media is sourcing, the interior minister of Russia has stated that the laws will be enforced.

Russia Confirms Anti-Gay Law Will Be Enforced at Olympics | Russia | RIA Novosti

Then there is the BBC, which I am hoping has the real story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23674661

Is it possible to get a clear answer about this? If the laws are going to be strictly enforced, then I would support a boycott because I do not want to see athletes, spectators and journalists arrested for what might be perceived as "spreading gay propaganda."

But if the laws are going to be suspended during the games, then a boycott seems spurious to me.

Does anyone have a straight (pardon the pun) answer to this question...?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Is it possible to get a clear answer about this? If the laws are going to be strictly enforced, then I would support a boycott because I do not want to see athletes, spectators and journalists arrested for what might be perceived as "spreading gay propaganda."

I am not sure as to how the law can be enforced for non-Russian nationals and athletes. There hasn't even been a case for a Russian citizen afaik yet. As someone said earlier in the thread, the athletes are not here to spread propaganda) they are here to show their best sport results.