Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Deborski

Oh relax, Max, we promise not to enforce our laws on foreigners

No-no-no, I know I will be fined, expelled, arrested, and then shot by a nasty policeman.

Why is the state suddenly protecting the ROC with so much fervor?

Just learned the beautiful English expression: the swing of the pendulum. Маятник качнулся, and now all people who had no respect in Socialism era, suddenly are "cool". On top of that, our President is a half of our state, and he is fond of church.

Originally Posted by Deborski

And immediately the insults begin. Can you begin any sentence with something other than an insult, when you disagree? And why insult me? Simply because I have an opposing view? I did not see you insulting or attacking the pedophile who was bragging about raping 13 year old girls...

This is why I do not care to discuss this subject on this forum. I get that you are angry about some myth about gay people "taking over your country" but I am not going to be fodder for you to attack.

Alexander Nevzorov is a distinguished journalist and war correspondent whom I had the great honor and privilege of working with in Leningrad many years ago. I am very encouraged to see that he is still speaking his mind and has not been shut down by the frothing-at-the-mouth religious right which wants to force everyone to believe exactly as they do. So naturally, you felt compelled to immediately denigrate his character and insult him too.

It's a pity that so many people on TV these days, in Russia and in America, are just loudmouthed shills for populist views. Nevzorov has integrity, and that is exemplified by his ability to stand firmly for the truth even when the majority disagree.

I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

Originally Posted by Basil77

I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

Well, I was acquainted with Nevzorov in Leningrad. I did not work closely with him, and I did not see this series about prostitution which you are describing. I did see the expose he did about equestrian sports, and I was impressed with that because I was very involved with equestrian sports when I was a teenager and everything he said about it is true. People beat horses and treat them horribly, all for the sake of winning a gold medal.

We can agree to disagree regarding gar rights. I only ask that we treat each other respectfully. Once the insults start flying, it causes me anxiety and I will usually leave the conversation.

This is an excellent movie about Matthew Shepard, the gay man who was beaten, tortured and killed in Colorado several years ago. His story was a major turning point for the gay rights movement in the United States. In my younger years, I was homophobic (thanks to religious indoctrination) and as I grew older I remained ambivalent. But this story really changed my thinking on many levels. I realized that gay people are who they are, and beating them or persecuting will never change them. I fear that Russia will have a few Matthew Shepards of its own before attitudes in Russia change. But I do have faith that most Russians do not approve of violence or cruelty, and that eventually Russia's attitude towards gay people will change. It may be many years before this happens, but I believe that some day it will.

I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go even here, where gay people are gaining rights, because gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes even in our "land of the free." And I am always the first to say when I think America does wrong - such as in the case of our global military aggression. But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go...

1) Европа (и Америка, как часть Европы) хочет, чтобы мы были похожи на них. Но у Европы был свой долгий путь, а у нас свой, совсем другой.
В Европе было рабство (белые владели чёрными), а у нас нет.
В Европе долгое время в средние века убивали геев на законном основании, а у нас нет.
Теперь Европа комплексует по поводу своих грехов, пытается их компенсировать в своей голове запретом слова "чёрный", признанием "браков" и т.д. Но у нас не было этих грехов и поэтому нет этих комплексов. Поэтому нечего компенсировать в своей психике.

2) Если пигмеев отдать во власть мусульман, то они заставят пигмейских женщин кутаться в балахоны, а мужчин носить штаны. И будут думать при этом, что спасают пигмеев от грехов. На самом деле пигмеи ещё не знают тех грехов, которые уже овладели более "развитыми" мусульманами. Мусульмане кутают своих женщин, чтобы их не украли другие мужчины, чтобы показать свою власть над женщиной и т.д. Пегмеи ещё не могут прокормить несколько женщин, поэтому у них нет многожёнства. У них нет права собственности на женщину и нет похищения людей. У них нет порнографии, так как нет одежды. И так далее. То есть мусульмане будут заниматься бессмысленными вещами, предполагая что их мораль универсальна. Но мораль находится в равновесии с грехом. Каждый военный знает, что средства обороны развиваются вместе со средствами нападения. История развития человечества - это история развития греха и морали. Капитализм, например, научился использовать жажду наживы для развития общества. А у пигмеев ещё рабовладения наверное не было.

Короче, когда Запад думает, что у него самая сильная мораль, он невольно признаётся, что у него самый развитый институт греха. Я же утверждаю, что разные народы обладают своим опытом в области греха. Поэтому каждый народ вырабатывает свою мораль.

But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things.

Do you mean they have some special rights above "ordinary" men?
What these rights are worth if nevertheless

gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes

Originally Posted by Юрка

Европа (и Америка, как часть Европы) просто хочет, чтобы мы были похожи на них. Но у Европы был свой долгий путь, а у нас свой, совсем другой.
В Европе было рабство (белые владели чёрными), а у нас нет.
В Европе долгое время в средние века убивали геев на законном основании, а у нас нет.
Теперь Европа комплексует по поводу своих грехов, пытается их компенсировать в своей голове запретом слова "чёрный", признанием "браков" и т.д. Но у нас не было этих грехов и поэтому нет этих комплексов. Поэтому нечего компенсировать в своей психике.

You misunderstand. We don't want you to be just like us. It isn't about that at all.

Gay people are not only living in Europe and in the US. There are plenty of gay people living in Russia, too. Shutting them up, killing them, making laws against everything they are will not cause gay people to stop being born.

It's a pity you will not watch the Matthew Shepard story, or understand the movie. It's a story of a family, and how they had to face their own homophobia and ignorance when their son was brutally murdered.

To say that because Europe had slaves, but Russia didn't, is probably true (notwithstanding the Viking Russians who did, in fact, have slaves). But to say that because Europe and the US did some things wrong, does not mean that therefore gay rights is also wrong. You are conflating the issues.

Yes. Russia does have its own path. And there will undoubtedly be many Russian boys will will die because they are gay, and because hatred of them is tolerated. But those boys will also have parents, like Matthew Shepard had, who will grieve the deaths of their children. And those parents will come to see that it was not their children who were wrong, but the hatred that is wrong. And some day, perhaps many years from now, even Russia will change.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Do you mean they have some special rights above "ordinary" men?
What these rights are worth if nevertheless

No. They do not have special rights above "ordinary men." There are simply laws in place which make it illegal to beat, kill, torture, and harass people because they are gay (or black, or Jewish, or any other class of people who have a history of being persecuted in our country). These laws are necessary now, because gay people are hated more than "ordinary" (ie, heterosexual) men.

To be even clearer, no rights are being taken away from heterosexual people, just because gays are protected by law. All these protections mean is that you can no longer fire someone from their job because they are gay. If they are a bad employee, you can still fire them. But you cannot fire them just because they are gay. Without these laws in place, discrimination is allowed and gay people have no legal recourse to fight a wrongful termination, for example.

(Deleted. L.) Colorado is not somewhere in Russia, it's in the US. Every American believes if something nasty happens in the "best country in the world", the same things occur much more frequent somewhere else, because the rest world is just a big hole in comparison with the US.

But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

(Deleted. L.) Like George Carlin said: "I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"

Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

Originally Posted by Deborski

But to say that because Europe and the US did some things wrong, does not mean that therefore gay rights is also wrong. You are conflating the issues.

Я на этих примерах пытался показать, как формируется "коллективное бессознательное" на Западе. Этот механизм одинаков и в случае чёрных рабов, и в случае геев, и в случае евреев. Сначала Запад допускает многовековую несправедливость по отношению к ним, потом вдруг становится их защитником, используя эту тему во внешней политике для давления на всех окружающих.
Наше же общество так сильно не бросает из крайности в крайность. И такой степени лицемерия мы ещё не научились.

Вы же пытаетесь перевести разговор на уровень индивидуальной психологии. Фильм наверняка об этом: как конкретные люди борятся в себе сами с собой, уродуют свою психику и т.д. Мне эта проблема кажется не интересной, так как у нас другая церковь, другая традиция. На личном уровне для меня этой проблемы не существует.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar).

I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.)

Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

Формирование means "forming of these 'non-traditional' ideas, attitudes in a child'. Yes, grammatically these 3 words connect to формирование.
Установка is a term used in psychology. It means 'established attitude towards something, established idea or thought. In pure sense it's not 'mores', it's related to 'norms' resulting from such attitudes. The word 'attitude' is enough to explain this word.
Навязывание is 'forcing' or trying to present any information, any thing, trying to sell something when the other party doesn't want to listen to this information and not interested, have no time, etc. Distribution of ad flyers in the street could be an example. Навязывание implies that the doer tries to do it in an active way. Captive audience is a nice way of saying it too.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

(Deleted. L.) Colorado is not somewhere in Russia, it's in the US. Every American believes if something nasty happens in the "best country in the world", the same things occur much more frequent somewhere else, because the rest world is just a big hole in comparison with the US.


(Deleted. L.) Like George Carlin said: "I could never understand ethnic or national pride. Because to me, pride should be reserved for something you achieve or attain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn’t a skill, it’s a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"

Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

All of the above are lies, twisting the truth, distortion. What is here? Self-deception, confusion or "Don't bother me with facts!"?

Carlin on gays: "Leave the f... people alone for Christ sake!"

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Or maybe you are proud of protection of "gay rights"? Once again: there is no such thing as "gay rights". There are "human rights". If you say "gay rights", it implies that gays have some original/special rights (like disabled persons or mentally retarded; perhaps you are right, though). If you persist in saying that, I make up a conclusion that you have a totalitarian worldview ("minorities are better than majority"), although it must have hidden deeply in your mind.

You have a point there. That's just one example but those special interest groups on the left, often want special rights and feel they deserve advantages because they're so 'oppressed.' The mod can censor stuff she doesn't agree with but it doesn't change the truth.

Originally Posted by Doomer

Yeah, Russia is using the Church to control minds of the crowd, the same way the US does, that might be a bigger issue in future of the nation

How many in Russia are that religious? Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian? Any who really practice and go to church?
I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia. The total sum is probably zero. *(Being sarcastic there: I am talking about those who I've talked to).

Originally Posted by 14Russian

How many in Russia are that religious? Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian? Any who really practice and go to church?
I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia. The total sum is probably zero. *(Being sarcastic there: I am talking about those who I've talked to).

You are right. I guess there are just approx. 5% of Russian people who are Orthodox Christian, or even less. Also, maybe just 0.001% of them are really care about gays.

In Russia, this "gay" context is inspired by some political forces (including European and American), which use gays for their political purposes. I mean, as pressure upon the Government (and Putin personally).

Originally Posted by Paul G.

You wouldn’t say "I'm proud to be 5'11". I’m proud to have a predisposition for colon cancer." So why the fuck would you be proud to be Irish, or proud to be Italian, or American or anything?"
Being a gay is just "a fucking genetic accident", no more. You are proud of that? Congratulations!

I can't find the photo now, but a few months ago I saw a picture of a Russian gay activist carrying a sign with the following slogan:

Я не горжусь тем, что я гей -- я горжусь тем, что не стыжусь.

(I'm quoting from memory; the wording may have been slightly different, but it was close to this.)

Anyway, my point is that "Gay Pride" (or "Irish Pride", or "Black Pride", or "Jewish Pride") originated as defensive reactions against other people's prejudice:




So, "Gay Pride" makes sense to the extent that an individual is surrounded by people who say "You ought to be ashamed!" But I would certainly agree that, as Other People's Prejudice diminishes, the "need" for events expressing "I'm Proud to be [fill-in-the-blank]" becomes less obvious. So minorities may lose interest in having special parades -- or, in some cases, these parades cease being political demonstrations and become Mardi-Gras-style events.

P.S. By the way -- it should be noted that, contrary to popular belief, "No Irish Need Apply" signs were probably quite rare in US history, and were mainly found in neighborhoods where Irish-American Catholics lived next door to British-American Protestants. Which is to say that Swedish-American Protestants and Italian-American Catholics had no particular prejudice against their Irish neighbors; anti-Irish hostility, where it existed, was mostly an obsession of certain US Protestants who had (recently) immigrated from the British Isles. (And the prejudice went in the other direction, too -- a lot of Irish-American Catholics hated British-American Protestants, but weren't hostile towards German-American Protestants.)

Originally Posted by 14Russian

How many in Russia are that religious? Is there any Russians here who are Orthodox Christian? Any who really practice and go to church?
I haven't met very many hard-core religious folk from Russia. The total sum is probably zero. *(Being sarcastic there: I am talking about those who I've talked to).

You can't meet them because you are not in Russia
There are two main reasons why there are not that many hard-core Orthodox Christian immigrants
1. To immigrate you usually have to have high education. And it is proven fact (there were several studies) that the more educated group of people is, the less religious it will be. Educated person finds it hard to believe in something that is not logical
2. Russian Orthodox church is also pro-national. It's somewhat substitution for patriotism in Russia, the Church is very old and it's been always following very old traditions that kept the spirit of Russia itself for many generations. That means hard-core Orthodox believers are also would be very patriotic to the country (not to the politics but to the country itself). And true patriots just won't leave Russia

Bigoted Christian Extremists Get Lost At Sea For Months After Leaving US In Protest Of Homosexuality -

Meanwhile, in America...

When the Gastonguay family sailed away from America in May, they believed they were leaving behind a government that supports taxes, abortion, and homosexuality. You see, they’re the kind of Christians who feel persecuted because the government won’t adhere to Biblical law that supposedly outlaws gays and bans a woman’s right to choose. They are also convinced that government controls the churches because being gay and choosing to have an abortion aren’t illegal. So they left the United States in protest and set course for the island of Kiribati, which is between Hawaii and Australia. The family took “a leap of faith” and believed God would answer their prayers to take them to a land where they can practice their extreme and hateful religious beliefs. Well, God responded and it was epic.

...and best of all, our US government, who they hated, actually rescued and saved them.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

*sniffle* If anyone wants me, I'll be over here with the rest of the chopped liver...

I'm sorry Throbert! I had no idea! It's not as if you are all decked out in rainbows and waving a giant flaming dildo in our faces ))))



I apologize for my assumption.

It just goes to show how wrong stereotypes really are!