Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Yes, it's sooooo horrible of her to say this?:
"When we go to different countries, we try to follow their rules. We are not trying to set our rules over there. We are just trying to be respectful."

She is overreacting about the fingernails, though. Let them all colour them pink, rainbow colours, whatever, who cares.

Do you even realize that one of the main goals of any country is to assure no individual's basic rights (such as the right to be who they are, the right for self-expression, the freedom of speech etc.) are ever violated? What imaginary "rules" can one be talking about like that? Can you imagine one walking over to you on the street and saying, "according to my views, you must not wear these clothes", or, as you're walking out of a night club with a girl, someone getting into your way and saying, "my beliefs forbid you to get laid with this girl" ? How's that? Sounds a bit fascist, doesn't it?

People here think I'm some kind of homophobe because I am against gay pride parades. I was actually engaged to a guy who didn't quite know which team he was batting for (as somebody politely put it) I loved him very dearly and definitely did not stop loving him after I found out what the situation was. I know he essentially couldn't stop himself, and that his love for me, and knowing that he hurt me just made it worse. Ultimately I took the only decision I could do and broke the engagement. But when we spoke about what triggered gay feelings, he said that it was that it was so easily accessible - internet etc - and that it was considered ok nowadays, which made it harder to resist. I can't relate to this level of sexual temptation but I believe he was completely honest.

The whole thing really broke my heart. I see it as a temptation, like alcohol, sweets or drugs are some peoples vice. I realise that some people are only turned on by the same sex and some by both. I don't think what they do is healthy and I don't think it should be promoted. But I also don't think it is for me to pass judgment on. I have my own vices. In some cases I think circumstances bring it out - for example my ex went to an all boys boarding school for practically all his schooling. He believed there was a link. I certainly don't want to condemn people for it, or criticise or judge anyone.

I'm just saying don't celebrate it in front of me, because I don't want to know! I don't want to have to travel to work in a bus with gay flags for a week (this happened last year) and I don't want to get leaflets on towns with people in vulgar outfits promoting something that is offensive to many, and belongs in the bedroom, not on the street.

I am upset that my country is now some kind of gay advertisement and there is a level of fanaticism about the pro-gay stance. I mean it HAD to be a Swedish person doing that rainbow nail thing, didn't it? (she may not be Swedish born, I don't know anything about her - she looks African and has an English name, but nevertheless it's her nationality). But she is celebrated as a heroine now. It also irritates me that Sweden seems hell bent to destroy any Russian goodwill at every opportunity. For the last 20 years it's just been non-stop "how can we piss off Russia for no reason..." (imho) Nobody would do a manifestation against the wars of the USA, nobody manifested anything in China during the Olympics there, and it has a much worse record then Russia with just about everything.

I'm finding that I am politically much more on par with the Russians on this forum then most of the rest of the members. Don't know how that came about really. Maybe I was brainwashed by Cheburashka as a kid, lol..... Or I played too much with my nested Russian doll!

We have yet to see ONE Russian person who lives in Russia come on here and say they believe the law is wrong.

If you are Russian, live in Russia and you think the law is wrong, please make a comment!

Originally Posted by alexsms

OK, This is the actual law everyone is talking about. There is no word 'gay' or 'homosexual' here)). I think there is no need to translate it?

Thanks for this link, alexsms!

I decided to translate Part 1 in its entirety, because I wanted to make sure I understood the legal terminology -- I had to leave a few words untranslated. And, also, the Russian sentence structure is a bit difficult to follow, so I added some line-breaks and bullet points for easier reading. The other 3 sections I translated only in summary, for anyone who was totally confused by Part 1, since so much of the language was the same as Part 1.
****
(1) The propaganda of non-traditional sexual relations among minors, expressed in the spreading of information directed toward the formirovanie among minors:

• of non-traditional sexual ustanovki ;

• [of the] attractiveness of non-traditional sexual relations;

• of a distorted conception about the equal social value of traditional and non-traditional sexual relations;

OR

• the navjazyvanie of information about non-traditional sexual relations, which causes an interest in such relationships,

in cases where these activities do not include criminally punishable activity, will result in administrative fines of [various specified amounts].

(2) The activities stipulated in part 1 of this article, when committed with the utilization of mass media and/or informational-telecom networks (including the Internet)... will result in [higher fines than described in part 1].

(3) When the activities in part 1 are committed by a foreigner or a person with no citizenship, the penalty may be an adminstrative fine OR 15 days in prison, AND expulsion from Russia.

(4) Foreigners who use mass-media or the Internet to commit the activities in part 1 may have to pay a monetary fine 10 times higher than in part 3 [although the 15-day imprisonment and the expulsion from Russia are the same].
****
And, by the way, I've used смайлики to add my own "editorial comments" about a few statements marked in red (I consider these phrases to be unbelievably naive about the nature of sexual orientation!)

I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar).

I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.)

Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

Overall, I must say that this certainly isn't as bad as the proposed law (unsuccessful!) that they tried to pass in Oregon way back in 1992: "All levels of government, including public education systems, must assist in setting a standard for Oregon's youth which recognizes that [homosexuality is] abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse."

Which is to say, at least the Russian law doesn't MANDATE homophobia, even though it makes it more difficult for homosexuals to speak publicly in their own defense.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Do you even realize that one of the main goals of any country is to assure no individual's basic rights (such as the right to be who they are, the right for self-expression, the freedom of speech etc.) are ever violated? What imaginary "rules" can one be talking about like that? Can you imagine one walking over to you on the street and saying, "according to my views, you must not wear these clothes", or, as you're walking out of a night club with a girl, someone getting into your way and saying, "my beliefs forbid you to get laid with this girl" ? How's that? Sounds a bit fascist, doesn't it?

LOL! From her quote, that could apply in many Western countries especially with issues like immigration etc. etc. Since, you bring it up, it sounds like there are groups who don't want to grant her the same rights (freedom of expression).

Under-fire Yelena Isinbayeva says she was misunderstood - The Globe and Mail

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

When I read the phrase "rainbow nails", I was thinking of something more like this, with little tiny rainbow stripes on EACH nail:

Yeah I thought so too when I wrote my comment about it. It's kind of a cute look though, if you take the politics out of it.

But nail salons are not common in Sweden (it's an American - Anglo thing) and you couldn't do that yourself..
From the look of Emma Tregaro's nails she simply used some nail polish she had at home.
Since she was hellbent on doing it, she might as well have done it with style. There's probably an American style nail salon somewhere in Moscow that she could have gone to, to do it properly.

Originally Posted by Hanna

But nail salons are not common in Sweden (it's an American - Anglo thing)

Totally off the thread topic, but nail salons of this type in the States -- I've heard -- owe much of their popularity to (a) Vietnamese boat-people, and (b) actress Tippi Hedren, best known for Hitchcock's The Birds!

The story goes that Ms. Hedren, at a party in the 1970s, met a couple of Vietnamese-American entrepreneurs (a former South Vietnamese general and his wife!) who owned some hair salons in Los Angeles. At the time, their salons only did very simple manicures. Hedren told them that some Hollywood actresses paid hundreds of dollars for ultra-fancy nails with stripes and rhinestones glued all over them, and that Vietnamese girls who only knew 10 words of English could be taught how to give these "Hollywood style" manicures to middle-class American housewives, bringing in a much bigger profit for the salon.

Tippi's suggestion was a brilliant success, and even now more than half the nail salons in the U.S. are Vietnamese-owned.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Totally off the thread topic, but nail salons of this type in the States -- I've heard -- owe much of their popularity to (a) Vietnamese boat-people, and (b) actress Tippi Hedren, best known for Hitchcock's The Birds!

The story goes that Ms. Hedren, at a party in the 1970s, met a couple of Vietnamese-American entrepreneurs (a former South Vietnamese general and his wife!) who owned some hair salons in Los Angeles. At the time, their salons only did very simple manicures. Hedren told them that some Hollywood actresses paid hundreds of dollars for ultra-fancy nails with stripes and rhinestones glued all over them, and that Vietnamese girls who only knew 10 words of English could be taught how to give these "Hollywood style" manicures to middle-class American housewives, bringing in a much bigger profit for the salon.

Tippi's suggestion was a brilliant success, and even now more than half the nail salons in the U.S. are Vietnamese-owned.

All of the local nail salons are owned by Vietnamese immigrants, at least here in Spokane. I used to get my nails done when I was working in TV, but these days I don't bother with it often, and when I do, I apply my own acrylic because it's much less expensive than shelling out up to $50 for a professional manicure.

Originally Posted by Hanna

We have yet to see ONE Russian person who lives in Russia come on here and say they believe the law is wrong.

If you are Russian, live in Russia and you think the law is wrong, please make a comment!

Would publicly stating that the law is wrong be an act of "propaganda"? If so, I would expect it is asking too much of people to come out and say they oppose it. However, some of my friends in Russia have told me privately that they think the laws go too far.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The whole thing really broke my heart. I see it as a temptation, like alcohol, sweets or drugs are some peoples vice. I realise that some people are only turned on by the same sex and some by both. I don't think what they do is healthy and I don't think it should be promoted. But I also don't think it is for me to pass judgment on. I have my own vices. In some cases I think circumstances bring it out - for example my ex went to an all boys boarding school for practically all his schooling. He believed there was a link. I certainly don't want to condemn people for it, or criticise or judge anyone.

I empathize with you that your heart was broken. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. But I disagree with your analogy that being gay is like a "temptation" or an "addiction" for chocolates or alcohol. People are born gay. It isn't something they can shake off. They are either gay, or they are not gay. And in my experience, forcing gay people into the closet, forcing them to lie about who they are in the first place, is what creates situations like the one you are describing! Why did this man try to pretend he was straight in the first place? If he lived in a society where he could freely be gay, he would have never dated you and he would never have broken your heart!

And I do not mean this as an attack on you, but when you say that being gay is a "vice" like addiction or a bad habit, you are judging! Personally, I do not care if people are gay or not. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. I am glad to know they are gay up front though, because then there are no guessing games and no one is lied to or hurt. To me, being gay is like being black or being white. It is what it is. A black person can't change the color of his skin, even in a society where being black means that he is discriminated against. And gay people can't change the fact that they are gay. Sure, they can be celibate, as Throbert suggested, but why should they have to? Why can't they be allowed to love and marry and enjoy all the same rights as heterosexual people have?

I do not support outlandish expressions of a pornographic nature, whether they are gay or straight. I could fully understand if Russia made laws against pornography in public, or showing pornography to kids. If the gay pride parades contained too much pornography, it would have been easy enough to just outlaw the porn. But why also outlaw rainbow flags? It makes no sense to me.

I'm not telling Russians how to run their country. I very much doubt that these laws will change. But at the same time, I am afraid - as a foreigner - to travel to Russia right now. I don't want to be accused of spreading "propaganda" if I happen to mention that my husband's uncle is gay, or if I wear rainbow earrings or something. So sure, Russia can keep its laws as is Russia's right as a sovereign country, but to expect that there will be no international reaction to that is naive.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Yes, clearly Obama is a Jew.

The real power is in the hands of those who control the American financial system.

By the way: The people in Finland are not like the rest of Europe on this.
They are more on the Russian side of this debate.

They think everyone in Sweden (brother nation...) has gone totally insane, and become obsessed with this matter. (I agree with them) The Finns are 100% "be a real man" and almost take it too far at times, with neanderthal behaviour, spitting snuff boozing. The leading "gay personality" in Sweden, is actually Finnish. You can't turn on the TV without seeing his face within five minutes, and his lover who is also a TV personality.

Originally Posted by Marcus

The real power is in the hands of those who control the American financial system.

Agree, but no point mixing up religion with it. It's hardly religious motives driving the people in question.

One other thought I have for today. Back in January (when the law got its first reading in the Duma), I mentioned the recent death of an American woman named Jeanne Manford, the founder of America's first-ever group for heterosexuals who support gay rights, now known as PFLAG. Mrs. Manford began her efforts in 1972, three years after New York's "Stonewall Riots" in June 1969. Around 1973, the word "gay" in the sense of "homosexual" was used for the first time ever on a U.S. television network (the word had been "underground slang" since approximately the WW2 era). In 1977, on the sitcom All in the Family, Edith Bunker attends a cousin's funeral and learns that "Cousin Liz" had been in a relationship with another woman for 20 years or so. In 1980, an 18-year-old public high school boy made national newspaper headlines by suing (and winning) over the right to bring his boyfriend to the school prom. Throughout the 1980s, the phenomenon of AIDS and the need to combat its spread made it increasingly impossible to not discuss homosexuality in mainstream media. By the 1990s, the topic of gay teenagers "coming out" in high school was rather old news -- rarely worth a headline anymore -- having been discussed a million times on talk shows like Donahue and Oprah.

I might add that in the UK, they struck down anti-sodomy laws in 1967 -- 6 years after the banned-in-America film Victim, whose protagonist was a British gay man targeted by a blackmailer. And in the late 1960s, the "flamingly queer" characters of Julian and Sandy attained massive cult popularity on UK radio (ten years before "Mr. Humphries" on BBC TV).

In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One other thought I have for today. Back in January (when the law got its first reading in the Duma), I mentioned the recent death of an American woman named Jeanne Manford, the founder of America's first-ever group for heterosexuals who support gay rights, now known as PFLAG. Mrs. Manford began her efforts in 1972, three years after New York's "Stonewall Riots" in June 1969. Around 1973, the word "gay" in the sense of "homosexual" was used for the first time ever on a U.S. television network (the word had been "underground slang" since approximately the WW2 era). In 1977, on the sitcom All in the Family, Edith Bunker attends a cousin's funeral and learns that "Cousin Liz" had been in a relationship with another woman for 20 years or so. In 1980, an 18-year-old public high school boy made national newspaper headlines by suing (and winning) over the right to bring his boyfriend to the school prom. Throughout the 1980s, the phenomenon of AIDS and the need to combat its spread made it increasingly impossible to not discuss homosexuality in mainstream media. By the 1990s, the topic of gay teenagers "coming out" in high school was rather old news -- rarely worth a headline anymore -- having been discussed a million times on talk shows like Donahue and Oprah.

I might add that in the UK, they struck down anti-sodomy laws in 1967 -- 6 years after the banned-in-America film Victim, whose protagonist was a British gay man targeted by a blackmailer. And in the late 1960s, the "flamingly queer" characters of Julian and Sandy attained massive cult popularity on UK radio (ten years before "Mr. Humphries" on BBC TV).

In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

Part of the reason gays seem like they are so prominent in media right now is because they are still in the process of gaining equality, even in western societies. the United States has yet to make same-sex marriage legal at the federal level, although it is now legal in a few states (including my own) and several other western countries have legalized it, in Europe as well as South America. But gays were also silenced for decades, and so openly gay people on TV is still a relatively new phenomenon in the west. Once true equality is achieved, there will be less need for all the protests and hoopla. In fact, I am already hearing annoyance expressed by a growing number of people in the gay community itself, that gay people on TV are too flamboyant and over-the-top, and do not properly represent the LGTB community.

I'd like to add that so far no openly gay people have joined in on this thread either, but so what? Why would they want to come here and say "yes I'm gay" when there are so many people who would clearly judge them and think of them as "filthy" or less than human? It's been hard enough for me to openly engage in this discussion, and I'm not even gay! But in other threads, I have been attacked and insulted for saying the same things I have said here. In fact, off of MasterRussian I have been called some of the most disgusting slurs you can imagine, in both English and Russian. It's as if I am "filth by association" or something. I do not know what goes through people's minds. I have gay friends - but that doesn't mean I have sex with them anymore than I have sex with any of my heterosexual friends. They are just friends, and I support their right to be who they are and what they are, just as much as I stand up for my Russian friends when I hear Americans engage in Russophobia!

Up to a point, I can take it. I'm a tough girl after being a TV reporter for all those years... but dealing with all the anger and hate and judgement gets to even me after a while, and so I can't imagine how it would feel if I were gay. If I were gay, I doubt I would mention it here at all.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I empathize with you that your heart was broken. I am really sorry that you had to go through that. But I disagree with your analogy that being gay is like a "temptation" or an "addiction" for chocolates or alcohol. People are born gay. It isn't something they can shake off. They are either gay, or they are not gay. And in my experience, forcing gay people into the closet, forcing them to lie about who they are in the first place, is what creates situations like the one you are describing! Why did this man try to pretend he was straight in the first place? If he lived in a society where he could freely be gay, he would have never dated you and he would never have broken your heart!

And I do not mean this as an attack on you, but when you say that being gay is a "vice" like addiction or a bad habit, you are judging! Personally, I do not care if people are gay or not. It makes no difference to me whatsoever. I am glad to know they are gay up front though, because then there are no guessing games and no one is lied to or hurt. To me, being gay is like being black or being white. It is what it is. A black person can't change the color of his skin, even in a society where being black means that he is discriminated against. And gay people can't change the fact that they are gay. Sure, they can be celibate, as Throbert suggested, but why should they have to? Why can't they be allowed to love and marry and enjoy all the same rights as heterosexual people have?

I do not support outlandish expressions of a pornographic nature, whether they are gay or straight. I could fully understand if Russia made laws against pornography in public, or showing pornography to kids. If the gay pride parades contained too much pornography, it would have been easy enough to just outlaw the porn. But why also outlaw rainbow flags? It makes no sense to me.

I'm not telling Russians how to run their country. I very much doubt that these laws will change. But at the same time, I am afraid - as a foreigner - to travel to Russia right now. I don't want to be accused of spreading "propaganda" if I happen to mention that my husband's uncle is gay, or if I wear rainbow earrings or something. So sure, Russia can keep its laws as is Russia's right as a sovereign country, but to expect that there will be no international reaction to that is naive.

He was Catholic, English and as posh as they come. It's a fatal mix for messed up sexuality. If it's not one thing it's another, as many poor women in this country have discovered... Public schools (meaning traditional English boarding schools) have a lot to answer for. In retrospect I can see that his sexuality was messed up and there is more to this story than my brief summary. I know why he acted the way he did. He loved me and he wanted a wife - that bit was genuine. We were a perfect couple in all other ways, complemented each other, had fun and a connection I never felt with anyone else. He was not fully gay, obviously... He didn't think I needed to know and didn't expect it to be an issue. Arrogant, but that's how it goes sometimes. Unfortunately he broke the computer and I ended up fixing it. You can work the rest out - did not set out to spy on him. Had that not happened I would be married to him today and might be none the wiser, as I am not the suspicious type... To his credit he was completely honest and up front when I confronted him, and full of regrets/ Although I was prepared to give him a second chance, there was an upper limit and the thoughts of this were extremely offputting.

On the flag thing: I have no problem whatever if a pub discreetly signals that it's gay by a small rainbow flag - as a pub near my house. There is no need for anyone else to go in there.

But I object that I had to travel to work in a gay-flagged bus last year! That's taking it too far. I happen to be Christian and although I think Christ would have had compassion with gays I don't want to support homosexuality either. Sitting in a gay flagged bus is forcing me to take part of a manifestation that I don't support.

I also object that this issue has totally hi-jacked the political parties on the left: Socialists, Communists (particularly) and Greens are obsessing over this issue at the expense of really important issues, like social welfare disappearing, public companies being sold out and much more. It only concerns a small minority, while selling out state housing affects half the population. While these parties are trying to prove their pro-gay credentials the country is being taken over by big business. The 1st May parade, from what I saw in Sweden last year was half Pride parade and this darn debate took up half the room of the traditional and extremely urgent issues.
It seems to me like this issue is a Trojan horse and deliberately blown out of all proportions.

BTW - have you noticed that all our Russian friends have dropped out of this discussion? I think there is a big cultural gap here.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Up to a point, I can take it. I'm a tough girl after being a TV reporter for all those years... but dealing with all the anger and hate and judgement gets to even me after a while, and so I can't imagine how it would feel if I were gay. If I were gay, I doubt I would mention it here at all.

Well, you know I like you and Lampada a lot. None of us have extreme views on this. We just happen to be on different sides of the absolute centre, so to speak.... We are arguing nicely, so there is no issue.

I've had too much of gay stuff coming my way lately and I thought Russia's law was refreshing. But the minute somebody starting giving gay people grief for a situation they can't control, I'd be completely against it. Particularly if using the law to do it. Saudi, Iran etc. Not my business, but I feel sorry for gay people there. The Nazis punished people for simply being gay.

I'm just saying, don't force this on regular people either, in the form of the kind of exaggerated agenda I was describing that I experienced in Sweden. I think Russians became aware that this was going on in some European countries and thought "no thanks". Edinaya Rossia picked up on it as an easy win with most of the population.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Would publicly stating that the law is wrong be an act of "propaganda"? If so, I would expect it is asking too much of people to come out and say they oppose it. However, some of my friends in Russia have told me privately that they think the laws go too far.

The law had nothing to do with what you say online - it's obvious they just want to curb the excesses of the gay movement in Europe and the USA. Do you think that the Russians believe that someone will come knocking on the door because they wrote on MasterRussian that the law is bad? As far as I can see Russians are bitching away with insane conspiracy theories and insults on politicians on blogs etc. Not to mention radical islamic, left wing and nazi sites. This seems to be going on uncurbed. Much worse stuff than complaining about a silly law. Besides, they don't have NSA and certainly not the manpower even if somebody cared.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

LOL! From her quote, that could apply in many Western countries especially with issues like immigration etc. etc. Since, you bring it up, it sounds like there are groups who don't want to grant her the same rights (freedom of expression).

Under-fire Yelena Isinbayeva says she was misunderstood - The Globe and Mail

Of course, she's free to say what she thinks; though it does not mean it can't be somewhat really shocking to lots of people; honestly, I was really surprised by the "normal people" statement of hers too, because I would never think a person with her background could ever make statements of that kind.

Hanna The law had nothing to do with what you say online - it's obvious they just want to curb the excesses of the gay movement in Europe and the USA. Do you think that the Russians believe that someone will come knocking on the door because they wrote on MasterRussian that the law is bad? As far as I can see Russians are bitching away with insane conspiracy theories and insults on politicians on blogs etc. Not to mention radical islamic, left wing and nazi sites. This seems to be going on uncurbed. Much worse stuff than complaining about a silly law. Besides, they don't have NSA and certainly not the manpower even if somebody cared.

It isn't that I think the government would come knocking at anyone's door over things they said online. It's other kinds of social reprisals I am talking about. I've already experienced a few attacks right here at MR for saying the same things I am saying on this thread. A few other people appear to be "shunning" me because of my opinions here, apparently forgetting that I do not talk about gays every hour at the day. I've chatted with some of the people on this site for almost two years now, and I hope that by now they know me well enough that they understand, that just because I am speaking my mind here on this thread, does not mean I am going to talk about gay rights in every other conversation we have. I get that many Russians will not agree with me. It's a forgone conclusion, really.

Fortunately I don't live in Russia, so I don't have to worry about my employer seeing what I say on Facebook, for example, and firing me the next day. I worry that I would get in trouble if I went to live in Russia again, and I am not even gay, I just have gay friends who I openly support. I can only imagine what it would be like to be gay living there! I would have to hide everything about myself and pretend to be straight, or I would be ostracized by the community, and possibly worse. As I've said before, it isn't just the law - with all of its ambiguous wording - which concerns me, it's the growing numbers of neo-Nazis and skinheads and religious fanatics who beat gay people up, attack them, humiliate them, torture them, etc. And maybe the law charges some of them, but it certainly doesn't charge all of them. There is definitely a prevalent attitude that gay people are just "getting what they deserve." I have even heard that attitude expressed right here at MR.

I think the law is just the tip of the iceberg really. As for myself, maybe it's because I am no longer involved with christian religion (I once was, in fact my uncle was a famous Televangelist in the US back in the 1970's - and that is a whole other long story), but I don't really see gay people "taking over." Sure there are a few movies with gay actors, there are some TV shows about gay people, there are gay pride parades on so on, but it doesn't really bother me. I can take it, or leave it. I like "Project Runway" for example, because it's a show about fashion and I love designing my own clothing. The fashion industry has a lot of gay people in it though, and so "Project Runway" can come across as very "gay." It doesn't really bother me. On the other hand, I am not watching gay porn on TV because it just doesn't interest me! I watched "Brokeback Mountain" and thought it was a good movie, but I don't especially need to watch it again.

I certainly see many more "manifestations" of religion, living here in the US. Within a five mile radius of my home there are at least ten churches! Ten! And yet the right wing christian community claims all the time that it is being "persecuted" by the "liberals" and their "gay agenda." I think what they mean by being persecuted, is that they do not have the authority to shut people up. It isn't as though their churches are all being shut down, and christians are being shot on site. It's the other way around really. Admit you are gay, or atheist, or just a non-believer, and you can expect a great deal of persecution here in the states... people will ostracize you, judge you, stab you in the back. My last workplace was 90% christian. When people found out I was not a christian, they made my life difficult.

Hanna: Well, you know I like you and Lampada a lot. None of us have extreme views on this. We just happen to be on different sides of the absolute centre, so to speak.... We are arguing nicely, so there is no issue.

And I like you as well! We do not have to agree on this one subject. I am sure there are many other subjects which we would agree on. This is just one issue. It's a big issue, but it too, will pass.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Relax Throbert! I am not comparing Russia to Nazi Germany... yet... although I must say that the other day I was pounced on by a group of angry Russian homophobes and one of them said it is a комплимент to be called a Nazi. I reminded him that 11 million Red Army Soldiers died fighting Hitler. There is definitely a strong neo-Nazi presence in Russia right now, and I do not think it's going "too far" to express concerns that the persecution of gays may not be an end unto itself. It begins with gays, and who is next? Jews? Atheists? I think we are beholden to make historic parallels where we see them. The rise of nationalism and religious laws in Russia is grave cause for concern. Same goes for the religious conservatives trying to take over America as well!

I am afraid you are communicating with real Nazis, Deborski. You'd better leave that forum. As they say now: only пуля в лоб can cure them.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Thank you for making this point, Lampada! However, in my post, I wanted to emphasize that people who are attracted to the same sex can make a choice to be "celibate" (is безврачный the correct term, here?) and still be homosexual -- just as people can be celibate and heterosexual. And there are millions of teenagers who are VIRGINS and have never had sexual contact with a person of the same sex nor of the opposite sex -- yet they're still homosexual -- just as there are heterosexual virgins.

Безбрачие (you must use a noun somehow)
Безврачный - is something about Самолечение — Википедия

I would assume that формирование should here be translated with something like "the development of such-and-such an opinion" or "the forming of an idea"? I want to be sure of this because the genitives установок, привлекательности, and представления all appear to connect back grammatically to формирование (unless I misunderstood the sentence grammar).

I wasn't sure about (сексуальные) установки -- perhaps "norms" or "mores"? (Установка is a word I'm more used to seeing in a physical or computing sense.)

Could навязывание be translated as "the forcing (of an idea)"? For example, if a teacher gives "homosexual propaganda" to pupils who aren't allowed to leave the classroom? (We often use the phrase "a captive audience" in English.)

For "установка" , matching words are possibly "aim, guideline".
"формирование" could be "forming", "shaping", "organizing"
"навязывание" - forcing seems to be appropriate word. Do you remember how Баттерс навязывался в друзья к Стэну, Кайлу и Эрику (after Kenny died for real) ?


Not sure about any of words because of my poor, poor English

In short, if very few Russians in Russia have objected to the law -- not counting Russians like Nikolai Alekseev, who naturally shouldn't be counted, since his gay opinions are now punishable by fines -- part of the reason is, perhaps, that they're coming to this topic several decades later than in the West.

Yes! "Мы перебесимся и станем как вы" (из фильма "Курьер")

Part of the reason gays seem like they are so prominent in media right now is because they are still in the process of gaining equality, even in western societies.

Of course they are. Where non-mixed pair competitions for figure skaters? Where men's competitions in Rhythmic gymnastics?

Why Western World keeps silence? Already in process of inventing proper costumes I guess?