Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Всё правильно. Хороший план. Главное, полностью легитимный.
Люди требуют возвращения законного президента, Янукович возглавляет антибандеровские регионы и объявляет их территорией настоящей Украины, где действует Конституция. После чего на штыках российской армии въезжает в Киев. 30-го апреля Ярош принимает яд, через неделю 8 мая бандерами подписывается капитуляция, а 9 мая на Украине, в России и Белоруссии проходит праздничный салют.

Interesting article?
The Mafia Ruling Ukraine’s Mobs - The Daily Beast

It really further destroys the arguments of the Putinoids. I like it for that reason.

I chat with a Russian in Moscow who verified this. Also, a Ukrainian friend said that Putin sent criminals to Ukraine so that is also confirmation. They told me this before this article was online.

Мелитополь:

Годный наброс на вентилятор от ЛДПР:
Взгляд ЛДПР на исторические причины кризиса на Украине

Here's a translation into English (to all readers - nobody takes LDPR seriously, neither should you):
The majority of experts’ assessments of the overwhelming wave of disagreements that had overthrown the inner political situation in Ukraine which had not been very stable to begin with are rather single sided.
Social problems that remain unsolved, a likely economic collapse, the confrontation of common sense with the apologists of not even nationalistic, but blatant Nazi slogan ‘Ukraine is for the Ukrainians’ – all of it takes its place. The main reason of the current resentment that poisons the Ukrainian society, however, remains unsaid or gets mixed with other things by the supporters of the idea of ‘irreversibility of history’. Still, many problems that exist in Ukraine are closely connected with the history of Ukrainian statesmanship. Nations that are fundamentally incompatible by their psychology, nations that have been warring each other for centuries essentially ended up on the same territory.
Let us turn the recent pages of history. Right before the war (translator’s note: WW 2) the Soviet Government trying to safeguard USSR and its allies was practically forced to integrate in the Soviet Union a part of Bessarabia which belonged to Romania. Nowadays, this is Chernovitskaya oblast on the Ukrainian territory. Aside from that, geopolitical reasons dictated the expansion of USSR to a whole number of indigenous Polish territories. These were Volynskaya, Lvovskaya, Ternopolskaya, Ivano-Frankovskaya and Rovenskaya oblasts. The lands listed above have always been a part of Poland and relations between the Poles and the Ukrainians have always been tense. Mutual intolerance for many years has been accompanied by open fights that frequently grew into bloody massacres – whole settlements have been destroyed in a cruel confrontation of Ukrainian and Polish nationalists.
Another spectacular example is Zakarpatye region – a territory that is related to Hungary both ethnically and historically.
How it is possible to calm down the whole region which boils with hatred and threatening to remain one of the most troublesome spot on the European map? LDPR offers a solution. Why don’t Poland, Romania and Hungary think about holding referendums on the abovementioned Ukrainian oblasts and also in adjacent territories in Poland, Romania and Hungary? There could be only one question: a possibility of returning Chernovitskaya oblast to Romania, Zakarpatskaya oblast to Hungary, and 5 Ukrainian olasts (Volynskaya, Lvovskaya, Ternopolskaya, Ivano-Frankovskaya and Rovenskaya) to Poland. An objective and unbiased view on historical justness sided with refusal of pseudopatriotic speculations will lead to a long-hoped harmony in international relations.
In this case Central Ukraine could free itself from the excess tensions that are mainly related to the incompatibility of populations that live on the territories which were forcefully annexed by Stalin from Poland, Hungary and Romania in favor of USSR due to political realities of that time.
We observe similar processes in the East and Southeast of Ukraine. The absolute majority of these territories is inclined towards Russia and wants to be a part of Russia. The referendum in Crimea only illustrates the desires and will of the people that populate this peninsula. Same processes take part in other parts of Europe like Kosovo, Scotland, Catalonia, Bascony, and others.
One cannot refer all this to peoples’ right for self-determination alone. All western regions of the present Ukraine have always been parts of Poland. One of the practical proofs for that are the property deeds presented by the father of LDPR leader V. V. Zhirinovsky for a factory and lands in Rovenskaya oblast. All these documents as well as their notary certification are written in Polish. Both Ukraine and Ukrainian law was out of the question these days. And Poland has a full right to desire the return of these lands back under the Polish flag.
Not very long ago there was another grim anniversary of slaughtering of Poles on the Volyn territory. Looking at the ancient history of Kievan Rus one can see that Volynsko-Podolskoye principality has always been a part of Poland or Rzeczpospolita. It has never even been a part of Kievan Rus. It was the subject of territorial disputes between Lithuania and Poland!
LDPR sincerely loves and respects Ukraine and Ukrainians. We have nothing to quarrel over thus the possibility of holding referendums about returning the abovementioned lands to Poland, Hungary, Romania and Russia does not infringe the interests of the Ukrainians, but quite the contrary – will bring prosperity and peace to native Ukrainian lands like Kiev, Chernigov, Sumy, Poltava, Zhitomir, Kremenchug, Vinnitsa, Kirovograd…
It is never too late to correct historical mistakes, especially the ones that were made on the brink of the horrible war when the mere survival of the whole nations was at stake. Now there is no Stalin, no threat from Hitler. The world has changed. It’s time to bring a new tone to all these historic questions and decide them all in favor of people who live at the juncture of Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and Russia.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Yes, as I say before, rape victims are mostly responsible for being raped because of their bad behavior, provocative clothes and being too weak to resist. I congratulate you with such kind of logic.

Hm, well these "rape victims" wanted to be raped, if the allegory is continued.

But I really don't want to argue with you about your own country. You know it tons better than I, and your view is more relevant.
And it's not hard to understand that you are extremely angry and feel that you can never trust Russia again. Perhaps you are right. This does set a precedence, namely, if a country is in complete chaos, and there are people in that country who are interested in becoming Russian citizens, then Russia *may* annex it, like with Crimea.
So this might make some other ex Soviet countries a little bit nervous, even if I personally think this was a one-off for a very special region.

The reason I am not against what happened here is because it's obvious that the great majority in Crimea wanted the annexation.

And I hope that Ukraine can find a way forward as a united country, not pulling in two directions and having revolutions.Whether it's East or West.

Hanna, the precedence was first set in Kosovo. Had it not been the secession of Kosovo I don't think Russia would have dared to support Crimea. Then again, maybe not. We'll never know.
Rational European politicians kept saying back then that to allow Kosovo to secede is to open Pandora's box.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Hanna, the precedence was first set in Kosovo. Had it not been the secession of Kosovo I don't think Russia would dared to support Crimea. Then again, maybe not. We'll never know.
Rational European politicians kept saying back then that to allow Kosovo to secede is to open Pandora's box.

How would you say that this compares (or not) with Chechnya in the 1990s?
I really didn't pay any attention to that when it happened, and I have not read up on it, so sorry about my ignorance.
But they wanted to be independent and become a moslem state, didn't they, and become allies with countries like Saudi Arabia.....

But couldn't you say that Russia's position in relation to Chechnya has some similarities to Ukraine's position in relation to Crimea...?
Neither wanted to lose their region...

PS- am aware that a sort of "compromise" solution is in place in Chechnya and that they are "almost " getting their moslem state, without actually leaving the Russian Federation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How would you say that this compares (or not) with Chechnya in the 1990s?

Chechnya was BEFORE Kosovo.

Besides, those were bloody terrorists .

Besides, Chechnya was given independence. They could still have it if they didn't tried to invade Dagestan.

Originally Posted by dtrq

Besides, Chechnya was given independence. They could still have it if they didn't tried to invade Dagestan.

Really, did they? I paid zero attention to anything that happened in Russia for most of the 1990s.
I thought the reason for the war was that they wanted independence and Russia wouldn't grant it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Really, did they? I paid zero attention to anything that happened in Russia for most of the 1990s.
I thought the reason for the war was that they wanted independence and Russia wouldn't grant it.

Accords of Khasavurt were technically a cease fire which ultimately led to a peace treaty which, de-facto, acknowledged the independence or Republic Ichkeriya. They were independant from 1996 till 1999 when they invaded Dagestan. During these years there were numerous acts of terrorism in many Russian cities, abductions, slave trade. They printed false dollars, smuggled tons of drugs, etc.
When Putin had succeeded Yeltsin the Second Chechen war began.

P.S. Strangely enough, I knew about these accords but never thought of Chechnya as an independent state. Nevertheless, according to these treaties, they were independent not only de-facto, but de-jure as well.

Besides, the years of Chechnya's independence now remembered by the locals as the age of anarchy which left countless kids without school for almost 10 years (Their president Dudaev considered three-year education more than enough).

Нет? Сhechnya's independence is receiving over 30 billion dollars from Pootie although only Kadyrov and his buddies (or immediate connections) benefit. Possibly, rivals are kept silent this way?

But, Dagestan could try for independence? Perhaps, they should try to have a referendum? I am sure Russians are allowed to support such a democratic endeavour?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Нет? Сhechnya's independence is receiving over 30 billion dollars from Pootie although only Kadyrov and his buddies (or immediate connections) benefit. Possibly, rivals are kept silent this way?

Indeed, it's quite ruthless of us to fund the Republic of Chechnya with such enormous money. Maybe we should have just bombed the sh~ out of them back in 2000 just like the US do.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

But, Dagestan could try for independence? Perhaps, they should try to have a referendum? I am sure Russians are allowed to support such a democratic endeavour?

Of course they could. Considering that your analogy goes from the situation in Crimea, would you also like to add the Republic of Dagestan to your country as a full-fledged region thus granting all of its residents with your country's citizenship with all the rights it guarantees, including all the social expenses and protection? Just like we do in Crimea?
If yes... Comrades, I think we've just found a huge money-saving option

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Indeed, it's quite ruthless of us to fund the Republic of Chechnya with such enormous money. Maybe we should have just bombed the sh~ out of them back in 2000 just like the US do.

Of course they could. Considering that your analogy goes from the situation in Crimea, would you also like to add the Republic of Dagestan to your country as a full-fledged region thus granting all of its residents with your country's citizenship with all the rights it guarantees, including all the social expenses and protection? Just like we do in Crimea?
If yes... Comrades, I think we've just found a huge money-saving option

It's okay, Putin's gift of all those billions meant that Russians didn't have that benefit so whatever citizens suffered or were killed by Chechen criminals is good enough, right? I'm sure Russians didn't need those 30+ billions and I read that there are promises of 80B more by 2025. Putin is so generous. It's amusing that you think that no one is hurt by these gifts. You should be a comedian.

The analogy is that Russia was so ohhhhhh soooo concerned about rights for those in Crimea, so concerned about the Russians there (as he's proven time and time again to be concerned about Russians, of course.... LOL) so I suggested he should be really concerned and give Dagestan the same choice. But, Russians supposedly can't suggest separation of republics by law. I'm suggesting hypocrisy among other things. Sorry, it wasn't clear to you.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

I'm suggesting hypocrisy among other things.

Hypocricy is what we learn from 'civilized' countries. One cannot be democratic enough without it.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

It's okay, Putin's gift of all those billions meant that Russians didn't have that benefit so whatever citizens suffered or were killed by Chechen criminals is good enough, right? I'm sure Russians didn't need those 30+ billions and I read that there are promises of 80B more by 2025. Putin is so generous. It's amusing that you think that no one is hurt by these gifts. You should be a comedian.

Lurk the Internet and try to find any well-known Chechen field commanders who are still alive and didn't surrender. Don't be amazed if they happen to hide (and spread their specific version of radical islam) in your own country now.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

The analogy is that Russia was so ohhhhhh soooo concerned about rights for those in Crimea, so concerned about the Russians there (as he's proven time and time again to be concerned about Russians, of course.... LOL) so I suggested he should be really concerned and give Dagestan the same choice. But, Russians supposedly can't suggest separation of republics by law. I'm suggesting hypocrisy among other things. Sorry, it wasn't clear to you.

It's clear that we've separated more than enough during 1991-1993. Try to do the same with your country and then lecture us about admiring a nation's sovereignty.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Lurk the Internet and try to find any well-known Chechen field commanders who are still alive and didn't surrender. Don't be amazed if they happen to hide (and spread their specific version of radical islam) in your own country now.

It's clear that we've separated more than enough during 1991-1993. Try to do the same with your country and then lecture us about admiring a nation's sovereignty.

Piss off, Baldy. Your argument is weak and you are just ignoring my points since you have no leg to stand on.

Чечня потратит на восстановление 111 миллиардов рублей -

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zyalt: Ураза-байрам в Москве

The Duma is pursuing prison terms which is being called incitement to separation and for publicly expressing sympathy for separatist movements. So, if you question the territory integrity of Russia, you will be charged and convicted. This is analogous to the Crimea situation except that Ukraine allowed the referendum and Russia didn't care about taking territory. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Don't you have any shame? A foreigner makes you look like a fool...

Chechens do whatever they want there. Maybe you need to inform yourself about Russia.

could someone who is closer (or more familiar) with the Crimean situation prior to the referendum explain to me the (initial) presence of the military forces that were displaying no country signs. did they come from Russia (as was widely reported in the media where i live)? If i follow the argument of various commentators here, Russia by some agreement had the right to have a presence of 25000 or so forces in the Crimea. If that is so, why then would these 'legal' and organised troops then not display their country identity?

Originally Posted by eisenherz

did they come from Russia (as was widely reported in the media where i live)?

Some of them could come from Russia for strengthening. But anyway it was made according to the agreement. So you can't call it 'invasion.' It's a lie.

If i follow the argument of various commentators here, Russia by some agreement had the right to have a presence of 25000 or so forces in the Crimea. If that is so, why then would these 'legal' and organised troops then not display their country identity?

Because you need to devide these legal troops into three parts: so-called 'folk self-defense', some of the Ukrainian soldiers who took Russian side and, in fact, some legal Russian troops. All of them have been using Russian uniform.
They don't use their identification signs because it's kinda 'ruse of war.' The agreement says that the Russian command has to inform Ukrainian party about the movements of Russian troops. But if one can't recognize an identity, no one can say that the agreement is broken. Although I think it's only 'playing safe', no more. Since the Ukrainian Government is an illegal junta, Russian part must not inform them.