Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

What war?

The war Russia is conducting against us.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I have a question here. The so-called 'temporary government' in Ukraine, as the title suggests, were supposed to be temporary until the new elections would make a new Parliament and a new government. That, I think, was the plan. Now, the temporary government had already signed a couple of historic documents with huge long-term implications. Unilaterally, I stress. Without much consultation with the society. So, my question is when is the new Maidan planned to oust the power-greedy individuals who by all means exceeded their authority and start the trial in the Supreme Court of Ukraine subsequently cancelling their actions as anti-constitutional?

Why don't you explain it? You had all the answers before. Most here are cowards and won't. Or they're Putinoids and repeat the same old story ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Why don't you explain it?

You see, I'm just asking. I can't possibly know everything and I realize I am just as a victim of propaganda as everybody else. If my question makes somebody think and make their own conclusion, I'm happy enough even if their conclusions are way different than mine. If I get a decent answer to my question, I will happily accept it. An answer in Robert Jordan style ('For Whom the Bell Tolls'): "I will blow up the bridge first, and only then ..." are the only ones I do not want to hear. If you think Russia is acting illegitimate, act fully legitimate and only then you can be right and Russia will be wrong, otherwise at the very best, you're both wrong. IMHO.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You see, I'm just asking. I can't possibly know everything and I realize I am just as a victim of propaganda as everybody else. If my question makes somebody think and make their own conclusion, I'm happy enough even if their conclusions are way different than mine. If I get a decent answer to my question, I will happily accept it. An answer in Robert Jordan style ('For Whom the Bell Tolls'): "I will blow up the bridge first, and only then ..." are the only ones I do not want to hear. If you think Russia is acting illegitimate, act fully legitimate and only then you can be right and Russia will be wrong, otherwise at the very best, you're both wrong. IMHO.

So, the two wrongs make a right logic? Are you ten?

Then you stated this in another post:
'There is no war Russia is conducting against Ukraine.'
There's not?!? LOL! They surrendered it. They didn't oppose the anti-democratic methods used. That's all.

'Does it mean the Ukrainian government want those guys to die?'
Of course. Both Putin and the current Ukrainian government don't care about Ukrainians.

I guess, when you can spread propaganda like Russia does, have criminals in Crimea decide things and brainwash the population into supporting a corrupt and unethical regime, then one can consider it a 'democratic' decision (to become annexed).

There is no war Russia is conducting against Ukraine. Crimea left Ukraine and joined Russia. It's their sovereign democratic right. The 'temporary government' is too busy making huge decisions about the future of Ukraine (which they have no authority to) and not making the immediate important decisions about Ukrainians who actually need their directions (what they actually supposed to do). It's like giving access to your bank account to somebody to pay for the ongoing expenses like phone bills for a couple of months just to find out they have sold your house and purchased a new yacht. Very nice.

The government should decide how to fairly treat the Ukrainian military personell which is stuck in Crimea, but they have no directions from the government. At the best, the government said they should not surrender, without giving them hope to actually not surrender. Does it mean the Ukrainian government want those guys to die? Hmm..

Заблокированные на Донузлаве украинские моряки требуют от Киева конкретных решений

Originally Posted by Crocodile

There is no war Russia is conducting against Ukraine.

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion? Ramil for example says that it proves that Ukraine does not exist as a state and nation and should be broken into pieces and divided between neighbours. Basil prefer to have all Ukrainian untermensches under the patronage of great and noble Russia cured and saved from brown fever. You looks to have something to say as well. What is your recipe than?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

It is your interpretation of the events, there are other interpretations.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion? [...] What is your recipe than?

I think you mistake me for a prophet or a life-teacher of a sort, but in reality I'm just a simple-minded crocodile who is looking around, asking questions, thinking about other's opinions, making my conclusions, and re-visiting those conclusions later. I am not about teaching anybody what to do, I can only say things for myself and my personal observations. I personally strongly disapprove of revolutions, you know that. And I disapprove of the latest revolution in Maidan. As usual, the idealists are sacrificing their lives and the criminals who call themselves statesmen are using that for their own benefits disregarding the real needs of the people. I think the question I find in the Internet of the type 'what will happen to the world after the annexation of Crimea? now the world will never be the same' is short-sighted. The story started long before the recent events, and the selection of the coordinate system and the scope of the experiment are very important decisions, you know that better than myself. What else do you want to hear?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think you mistake me for a prophet or a life-teacher of a sort, but in reality I'm just a simple-minded crocodile who is looking around, asking questions, thinking about other's opinions, making my conclusions, and re-visiting those conclusions later. I am not about teaching anybody what to do, I can only say things for myself and my personal observations. I personally strongly disapprove of revolutions, you know that. And I disapprove of the latest revolution in Maidan. As usual, the idealists are sacrificing their lives and the criminals who call themselves statesmen are using that for their own benefits disregarding the real needs of the people. I think the question I find in the Internet of the type 'what will happen to the world after the annexation of Crimea? now the world will never be the same' is short-sighted. The story started long before the recent events, and the selection of the coordinate system and the scope of the experiment are very important decisions, you know that better than myself. What else do you want to hear?

I mainly disapproved revolution in Maidan as well even if understood its intentions and passion. Surprized? You asked for some new opinions and viewpoints and I provided you with one to show that there are different truths and one should partially accept each to get into situation. You could play with it and analyze the situation from that coordinates, but you preferred not to. Instead you prefer to critisize the Ukrainian govt, which is pointless because everybody see its stupidity and weakness etc. Everybody can see plenty of independent video and documents from inside of the most stupid and ridiculous moments of its functioning in extreme crysis. It is open to the world. But there are close to no independent sources from many other events and organizations. Like what exactly happened in Crimea that night. Or what is going on there now. It is closed to the world and even to the people in immediate proximity. All we see is a performance of the sexy prosecutor and other public actors. You can easily go to Kiev, try to extract bullets from the trees and ask everybody from Berkut fighters (they are easy to find - no hiding) to maidan activists and witnesses, get sincere answers and misinterpret that as you like. But you cant go to Simferopol and try to extract pieces of bombs from the walls of their parliament and government. Why don't you interested in it?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You asked for some new opinions and viewpoints and I provided you with one to show that there are different truths and one should partially accept each to get into situation. You could play with it and analyze the situation from that coordinates, but you preferred not to. Instead you prefer to critisize the Ukrainian govt, which is pointless because everybody see its stupidity and weakness etc.

OMG.. let's clarify my position on that matter, I was sure you got it. I think the statesmen (especially at their highest ranks) are criminals. Ukrainian government is not stupid, they are criminals and they commit criminal acts against people (of their population and of the foreign population) which they find needed to satisfy their own selfish needs. Russian government is exactly the same. EU governments are the same. The US government is the same. The Antarctic Penguins government is the same. Their weakness can only be measured against each other. Ukrainian government is way weaker than Russian government. Russian government is way weaker than EU and US governments combined.

Crimean government is also full of selfish criminals who are weaker than Ukrainian government. So, when Russian government commits criminal acts against Ukrainian government and Crimean government helps Russian government with that, I don't see ANY POINT WHATSOEVER to become 'more and more angry at the Russians'!!! So, Crimeans changed the title 'Ukraine' to title 'Russia'. Wow! Big deal! Now, Crimeans are bad bad people, Russians are bad bad people, and Ukrainians are good good people because they are victims of Russian people and Crimean people? That is nonsense! That is my point.

So, you offer me a 'different point of view' in which Russia is 'stomping with their military boots on your land'. Man.. Using your bombs analogy - how many shell pieces could you take out of YOUR building's walls? If none, then Russia does not do ANYTHING BAD to you personally, so you don't have a reason to be upset! You would still want to go places, maybe have beer with me, Ramil and Hanna somewhere near Yalta on the seashore. You probably don't want to take a storming rifle and Ramil take another storming rifle and go to the battlefield because you agree or disagree with the way some pony-tailed people behave, I guess. What makes you so upset with my point of view? You said that does not suit you and you offer your POV, which is ok by me. But, now you're blaming me for not taking your POV as a starting point. Well, that doesn't work well for me. I don't see why I should take any side in that conflict. Ukrainian government does not let you what you should be able to - go to the seashore and enjoy the Black Sea and the sunshine, oh well, what can we do? At least not to defend their criminal point of view.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion?

He's much better at speculating and criticizing - I tried to pressure him before but he is a bit slippery! Plus, I think Croc has some "Ukrainian connection". However I think Crocodile is more sympathetic towards Russia in this particular question than he normally is! Maybe Croc loves Crimea and nostalgia/patriotism finally got the better of him!

How about this though, it-ogo: If you get rid of the parts of the country that are not really loyal to Kiev anyway, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Southern or wherever (they become independent, or go to Russia), then THE REST of the country can do the "Western" thing, follow all the instructions of the EU, IMF, USA and what not, and eventually become an EU member.

You want EU membership, right? Because the alternative is some kind of union with Russia & co - a country can't really go it alone, unless it's made of oil or banks like Norway and Switzerland, and even those two have allegiances.

(As far as I am concerned, while supporting the opposition and a coup d'etat, the EU has lead Ukraine on this merry piper dance, and owes it to them now, to get Ukraine into the EU).

The way it is right now, one half of the country seems to always fight the other, and they are pulling in different directions, meaning the country can never progress! Belgium is a bit the same; two countries stuck in one and always fighting and pointing fingers. It's turned out extremely expensive for them!

From the outside perspective it looks like siamese twins, stuck in the same body, trying to walk in different directions! For 22 years now, this has been going on in Ukraine, how much more can you take?

Don't you agree that it is a stalemate, and something needs to be sacrificed to be able to get the game moving again?

I guess the alternative is to force everyone to support the new regime and just get on with it...

But Kiev also needs to keep in mind that minimum requirement for EU membership includes absolutely no territorial disputes in progress, and must be able to demonstrate that it's democratic.

Originally Posted by Hanna

He's much better at speculating and criticizing - I tried to pressure him before but he is a bit slippery!

We've been through that, I think. Please, ask me some specific questions and if I can provide specific answers I will try my best.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How about this though, it-ogo: If you get rid of the parts of the country that are not really loyal to Kiev anyway, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Southern or wherever (they become independent, or go to Russia), then THE REST of the country can do the "Western" thing, follow all the instructions of the EU, IMF, USA and what not, and eventually become an EU member.

I wrote many kilobytes of text in Russian about my position in quite sophisticated manner. In short: I am quite tolerant with not having Crimea in Ukraine but strongly unhappy with a way it was made. I believe that the "civilized divorce" was quite possible in realty of Ukraine, if population of Crimea formed and expressed their will explicitly and sequentially.

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger. If we remember that the same army conducted and supported effective ethnic cleanings of Georgians in South Ossetia in 2008 without any consequences, I think that bad behavior of Crimean Tatars can cost them much. That's why they are perfectly quiet now unlike several last years. And I doubt that anybody really cared to calculate the votes of that express-referendum.

From the viewpoint of Ukraine. We experienced heaviest humiliation in the difficult period of time and can never be sure any more that we are safe from foreign military invasion from the East. Ukrainian society is radicalizing and instead of analysing consequences of our revolution and making responsible decisions is put to hysteria of hatred similar to the permanent heavy hatred hysteria of Russia supported by all Russian TV channels 24/7 (about everything - homosexuals, Pussy riot, paedophilia, USA, Europe, Ukraine, Syria etc.) And nothing can be done. Russia got a weak sparring partner in its hatred-chauvinist boxing inspired by Russian authorities to distract the population from economical problems. And that looks like the real reason of the inasion.

That is my view.

About EU etc - later.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger.

As a person who grew up in Crimea and still has a lot of friends and relatives there, including Crimean Tatars, I'm sorry to say that you failed SPECTACULARLY at your attempt at emulating the Crimean POV. And thank you for calling the majority of Crimeans "happy slaves" for having guts to oppose our mock government (peacfully, I might add). You are being very kind.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I wrote many kilobytes of text in Russian about my position in quite sophisticated manner. In short: I am quite tolerant with not having Crimea in Ukraine but strongly unhappy with a way it was made. I believe that the "civilized divorce" was quite possible in realty of Ukraine, if population of Crimea formed and expressed their will explicitly and sequentially.

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger. If we remember that the same army conducted and supported effective ethnic cleanings of Georgians in South Ossetia in 2008 without any consequences, I think that bad behavior of Crimean Tatars can cost them much. That's why they are perfectly quiet now unlike several last years. And I doubt that anybody really cared to calculate the votes of that express-referendum.

From the viewpoint of Ukraine. We experienced heaviest humiliation in the difficult period of time and can never be sure any more that we are safe from foreign military invasion from the East. Ukrainian society is radicalizing and instead of analysing consequences of our revolution and making responsible decisions is put to hysteria of hatred similar to the permanent heavy hatred hysteria of Russia supported by all Russian TV channels 24/7 (about everything - homosexuals, Pussy riot, paedophilia, USA, Europe, Ukraine, Syria etc.) And nothing can be done. Russia got a weak sparring partner in its hatred-chauvinist boxing inspired by Russian authorities to distract the population from economical problems. And that looks like the real reason of the inasion.

That is my view.

About EU etc - later.

Thanks for this response. It took a while to take it in.
I am just not that shocked about Crimea. If it was AGAINST the will of the people there, I would condemn it.
But they seem really happy with very few exceptions.

After being told what a horrible and aggressive country Russia is for over 10 years now - if this is the worst that Russia does, then I am just not that impressed. The USA does MUCH worse things.

Of course, it's easy for me to say - it's not my country that is losing a region.

On the other hand - I live in the UK at the moment, and Scotland is voting about independence. If the independence wins (which it won't...) then they are welcome to leave. 100%, it's their call. If they wanted to join France they'd be welcome too, as far as I am concerned.

I think Russia acted in an opportunistic way. Not 100% sporting. Discussing the matter with Kiev first, and setting a later date for the referndum would have been more respectful of Ukraine. On the other hand, there was nobody to discuss with, at the time, and the Crimeans were the driving force as far as I understand.

And as for "naughty" behaviour by a country; we see so much worse than that in international politics, thinking primarily of the US All Russia did was without bloodshed annex an area they previously had, with people who want to be Russians. Granted, they took advantage of Ukraine's misfortune.

I think Ukrainians could have prevented it from happening by being a stable and non-corrupt country. Instead, it was in such a poor state that it could have an area snatched from right under its nose.

I think that unless Ukraine gets its house in order, this type of thing could continue. Europe / USA will run the economy cream all the profits out of the country. And if total chaos breaks out, Russia might decide to annex more of Ukraine.

Ukraine needs to sort itself out. The EU and USA are no more friends than Russia. They stirred up people and brought on the situation that lead to this, and now they are using the situation for propaganda purposes.
Meanwhile the Ukrainians are the losers and victims.

to Hanna and the others:

Boys and girls!

The EU has never offered Ukraine membership!
They were discussing about association agreements ONLY! It's NOT membership!

Let's stop talking here and there about things which don't exist.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

to Hanna and the others:

Boys and girls!

The EU has never offered Ukraine membership!
They were discussing about association agreements ONLY! It's NOT membership!

Let's stop talking here and there about things which don't exist.

I know! But the Ukrainians (some, anyway) got really excited about it - EuroMaidan uses the EU logo on it's flag.
The EU loves to lead countries on their little mad piper dance year after year.... Just look at Turkey.... Serbia, Moldova...... And now Ukraine, at least parts of it, is on the hook!

It's like they go to these countries in the outskirts of current EU, with economical problems and dangle this carrot in front of them, but they never actually deliver. I think the behaviour of the EU in this has been APPALLING from beginning to end.

Shameless! Taking advantage of a country that needs HELP from genuine friends, not manipulation and false promises!

In reality, anyone who knows the basics about the EU will know that Ukraine doesn't qualify for membership, the public in the EU is not in favour of itt.... Plus Brussels don't want and can't accept a country that unstable. The Crimea issue must be resolved because EU member states cannot have any border issues at all.

No worries I know the reality on this.

However it seems to me that Ukraine MUST set a course and stick with it.

Russia and its Eurasion trade zone.
Or the EU


What can't continue is this crazy situation of going 5 years in one direction, than 5 years in the opposite direction! They will never get anywhere if it continues like that!
Just pick a side, and stick with it!

Originally Posted by Crocodile

See? A transposition of the conflict from the domain of political ambitions into the domain of financial ambitions could play well for both sides as the transformations applied in the financial domain (when transposed back) could yield to the benefits in the political domain. The full effect of which is yet to be studied.

Until MP desides to change domains again... and again... and again... And at each new position positively thinking people can find the basis for mutually profitable collaboration cooperation.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Just say 'no' to the assault rifle!

I was pleased to scare you so much. Don't touch my weapon! I sitill didn't finish putting next nick on its club.


Ты бы лучше отреагировал на вот этот пост. Мне действительно очень интересно, что конкретно твои крымские знакомые подразумевают под украинизацией по самое не хочу. А то вот так вот живешь буквально в эпицентре и не замечаешь...

255.jpg
Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Originally Posted by E-learner

255.jpg
Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Я же говорю - недовольство есть, вменяемых идей - нет. Вплоть аж даже до такого. Януковича не уважает никто - наверняка соображения типа как у Пауля. Потому, собственно, и по-английску.

Originally Posted by E-learner

Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Стоит признать - это более, чем удивительно.
Такое впечатление, что никто толком не знает, что им делать. Кроме, разве что, Яценюка. Правда, на какое государство работает этот человек, впору задуматься. Вряд ли это Украина.