Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Throbert McGee, is this a guy who was unhappy in marriage?

It's offtopic, though.

I have no idea what Dale Carnegie's marriage was like, and I'm not sure why you bring it up. The point was simply если вы хотите "завоёвывать друзей и оказывать влияние на людей", то вам следует не намекать настолько публично о какой-нибудь DoS-атаке.

It's just very bad manners, really -- ох, вам не стыдно!

What do you mean? You think we allow you or other impudent Americans to decide which questions must be? LOL

No, but representatives of all Ukrainians, including pro-EU Western Ukrainians, should have had input into what the referendum questions were.

And since we're being impudent, let me make clear that to Americans, there's really not the slightest difference at all between хохлы and москали, or between them and бульбаши, for that matter -- as far as we're concerned, all of you have an unnatural addiction to borscht and you all talk like just Bela Lugosi from Dracula, so who the hell can tell you apart?



Robert мечет чеснок к Paul и убежает...

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Why don't you explain it?

You see, I'm just asking. I can't possibly know everything and I realize I am just as a victim of propaganda as everybody else. If my question makes somebody think and make their own conclusion, I'm happy enough even if their conclusions are way different than mine. If I get a decent answer to my question, I will happily accept it. An answer in Robert Jordan style ('For Whom the Bell Tolls'): "I will blow up the bridge first, and only then ..." are the only ones I do not want to hear. If you think Russia is acting illegitimate, act fully legitimate and only then you can be right and Russia will be wrong, otherwise at the very best, you're both wrong. IMHO.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

There is no war Russia is conducting against Ukraine.

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion? Ramil for example says that it proves that Ukraine does not exist as a state and nation and should be broken into pieces and divided between neighbours. Basil prefer to have all Ukrainian untermensches under the patronage of great and noble Russia cured and saved from brown fever. You looks to have something to say as well. What is your recipe than?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

It is your interpretation of the events, there are other interpretations.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion? [...] What is your recipe than?

I think you mistake me for a prophet or a life-teacher of a sort, but in reality I'm just a simple-minded crocodile who is looking around, asking questions, thinking about other's opinions, making my conclusions, and re-visiting those conclusions later. I am not about teaching anybody what to do, I can only say things for myself and my personal observations. I personally strongly disapprove of revolutions, you know that. And I disapprove of the latest revolution in Maidan. As usual, the idealists are sacrificing their lives and the criminals who call themselves statesmen are using that for their own benefits disregarding the real needs of the people. I think the question I find in the Internet of the type 'what will happen to the world after the annexation of Crimea? now the world will never be the same' is short-sighted. The story started long before the recent events, and the selection of the coordinate system and the scope of the experiment are very important decisions, you know that better than myself. What else do you want to hear?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think you mistake me for a prophet or a life-teacher of a sort, but in reality I'm just a simple-minded crocodile who is looking around, asking questions, thinking about other's opinions, making my conclusions, and re-visiting those conclusions later. I am not about teaching anybody what to do, I can only say things for myself and my personal observations. I personally strongly disapprove of revolutions, you know that. And I disapprove of the latest revolution in Maidan. As usual, the idealists are sacrificing their lives and the criminals who call themselves statesmen are using that for their own benefits disregarding the real needs of the people. I think the question I find in the Internet of the type 'what will happen to the world after the annexation of Crimea? now the world will never be the same' is short-sighted. The story started long before the recent events, and the selection of the coordinate system and the scope of the experiment are very important decisions, you know that better than myself. What else do you want to hear?

I mainly disapproved revolution in Maidan as well even if understood its intentions and passion. Surprized? You asked for some new opinions and viewpoints and I provided you with one to show that there are different truths and one should partially accept each to get into situation. You could play with it and analyze the situation from that coordinates, but you preferred not to. Instead you prefer to critisize the Ukrainian govt, which is pointless because everybody see its stupidity and weakness etc. Everybody can see plenty of independent video and documents from inside of the most stupid and ridiculous moments of its functioning in extreme crysis. It is open to the world. But there are close to no independent sources from many other events and organizations. Like what exactly happened in Crimea that night. Or what is going on there now. It is closed to the world and even to the people in immediate proximity. All we see is a performance of the sexy prosecutor and other public actors. You can easily go to Kiev, try to extract bullets from the trees and ask everybody from Berkut fighters (they are easy to find - no hiding) to maidan activists and witnesses, get sincere answers and misinterpret that as you like. But you cant go to Simferopol and try to extract pieces of bombs from the walls of their parliament and government. Why don't you interested in it?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Ah, then it was just a mirage.

What is your point, Croc? I can be unhappy of Ukr govt actions as well, but what is your conclusion?

He's much better at speculating and criticizing - I tried to pressure him before but he is a bit slippery! Plus, I think Croc has some "Ukrainian connection". However I think Crocodile is more sympathetic towards Russia in this particular question than he normally is! Maybe Croc loves Crimea and nostalgia/patriotism finally got the better of him!

How about this though, it-ogo: If you get rid of the parts of the country that are not really loyal to Kiev anyway, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Southern or wherever (they become independent, or go to Russia), then THE REST of the country can do the "Western" thing, follow all the instructions of the EU, IMF, USA and what not, and eventually become an EU member.

You want EU membership, right? Because the alternative is some kind of union with Russia & co - a country can't really go it alone, unless it's made of oil or banks like Norway and Switzerland, and even those two have allegiances.

(As far as I am concerned, while supporting the opposition and a coup d'etat, the EU has lead Ukraine on this merry piper dance, and owes it to them now, to get Ukraine into the EU).

The way it is right now, one half of the country seems to always fight the other, and they are pulling in different directions, meaning the country can never progress! Belgium is a bit the same; two countries stuck in one and always fighting and pointing fingers. It's turned out extremely expensive for them!

From the outside perspective it looks like siamese twins, stuck in the same body, trying to walk in different directions! For 22 years now, this has been going on in Ukraine, how much more can you take?

Don't you agree that it is a stalemate, and something needs to be sacrificed to be able to get the game moving again?

I guess the alternative is to force everyone to support the new regime and just get on with it...

But Kiev also needs to keep in mind that minimum requirement for EU membership includes absolutely no territorial disputes in progress, and must be able to demonstrate that it's democratic.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

The point was simply если вы хотите "завоёвывать друзей и оказывать влияние на людей", то вам следует не намекать настолько публично о какой-нибудь DoS-атаке.
It's just very bad manners, really -- ох, вам не стыдно!

1. I had got the point. But I don't want "to win friends" and blah-blah-blah.
2. If you support violence, be ready to feel the same on your own back. Is it too complicated truth?

No, but representatives of all Ukrainians, including pro-EU Western Ukrainians, should have had input into what the referendum questions were.

Mate, you repeat illogical bullshit. If some people living on a territory must ask the Government about their right to independence, the Government (and other citizens) will never allow them to vote for that. It's obvious. And your own American officials already said about that when they explained Kosovo precedent.
I know that Americans are very weak in geography. But what about history? It would be a good idea to organize a referendum about independence in the UK the 18 century. What do you think, why did the bloody American colonists violate the rights of all the peoples of the UK?

Robert мечет чеснок в Paul и убегает...

to Hanna and the others:

Boys and girls!

The EU has never offered Ukraine membership!
They were discussing about association agreements ONLY! It's NOT membership!

Let's stop talking here and there about things which don't exist.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

to Hanna and the others:

Boys and girls!

The EU has never offered Ukraine membership!
They were discussing about association agreements ONLY! It's NOT membership!

Let's stop talking here and there about things which don't exist.

I know! But the Ukrainians (some, anyway) got really excited about it - EuroMaidan uses the EU logo on it's flag.
The EU loves to lead countries on their little mad piper dance year after year.... Just look at Turkey.... Serbia, Moldova...... And now Ukraine, at least parts of it, is on the hook!

It's like they go to these countries in the outskirts of current EU, with economical problems and dangle this carrot in front of them, but they never actually deliver. I think the behaviour of the EU in this has been APPALLING from beginning to end.

Shameless! Taking advantage of a country that needs HELP from genuine friends, not manipulation and false promises!

In reality, anyone who knows the basics about the EU will know that Ukraine doesn't qualify for membership, the public in the EU is not in favour of itt.... Plus Brussels don't want and can't accept a country that unstable. The Crimea issue must be resolved because EU member states cannot have any border issues at all.

No worries I know the reality on this.

However it seems to me that Ukraine MUST set a course and stick with it.

Russia and its Eurasion trade zone.
Or the EU


What can't continue is this crazy situation of going 5 years in one direction, than 5 years in the opposite direction! They will never get anywhere if it continues like that!
Just pick a side, and stick with it!

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You asked for some new opinions and viewpoints and I provided you with one to show that there are different truths and one should partially accept each to get into situation. You could play with it and analyze the situation from that coordinates, but you preferred not to. Instead you prefer to critisize the Ukrainian govt, which is pointless because everybody see its stupidity and weakness etc.

OMG.. let's clarify my position on that matter, I was sure you got it. I think the statesmen (especially at their highest ranks) are criminals. Ukrainian government is not stupid, they are criminals and they commit criminal acts against people (of their population and of the foreign population) which they find needed to satisfy their own selfish needs. Russian government is exactly the same. EU governments are the same. The US government is the same. The Antarctic Penguins government is the same. Their weakness can only be measured against each other. Ukrainian government is way weaker than Russian government. Russian government is way weaker than EU and US governments combined.

Crimean government is also full of selfish criminals who are weaker than Ukrainian government. So, when Russian government commits criminal acts against Ukrainian government and Crimean government helps Russian government with that, I don't see ANY POINT WHATSOEVER to become 'more and more angry at the Russians'!!! So, Crimeans changed the title 'Ukraine' to title 'Russia'. Wow! Big deal! Now, Crimeans are bad bad people, Russians are bad bad people, and Ukrainians are good good people because they are victims of Russian people and Crimean people? That is nonsense! That is my point.

So, you offer me a 'different point of view' in which Russia is 'stomping with their military boots on your land'. Man.. Using your bombs analogy - how many shell pieces could you take out of YOUR building's walls? If none, then Russia does not do ANYTHING BAD to you personally, so you don't have a reason to be upset! You would still want to go places, maybe have beer with me, Ramil and Hanna somewhere near Yalta on the seashore. You probably don't want to take a storming rifle and Ramil take another storming rifle and go to the battlefield because you agree or disagree with the way some pony-tailed people behave, I guess. What makes you so upset with my point of view? You said that does not suit you and you offer your POV, which is ok by me. But, now you're blaming me for not taking your POV as a starting point. Well, that doesn't work well for me. I don't see why I should take any side in that conflict. Ukrainian government does not let you what you should be able to - go to the seashore and enjoy the Black Sea and the sunshine, oh well, what can we do? At least not to defend their criminal point of view.

Originally Posted by Hanna

He's much better at speculating and criticizing - I tried to pressure him before but he is a bit slippery!

We've been through that, I think. Please, ask me some specific questions and if I can provide specific answers I will try my best.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, you offer me a 'different point of view' in which Russia is 'stomping with their military boots on your land'.

Nope. I offered you a 'different point of view' about revolution - it was a while ago, probably you forgot already.

As for "Russia stomping", it is different. It is a public position of my choice as the most worthy. You are not invited to share it. You see, one should support one's nation to be able to produce something of global value or just improve situation around no matter of criminals, rulers or whatever. Something good happens sometimes despite of criminals, no? Being a nation is an energy that can be put to good or bad. And I see and feel that nowadays Russian way of being a nation is strongly destructive to its neighbours and - in a long term - to themselves. I can't dictate a way to be a nation, but that is a disaster and I feel myself obliged to claim it in most provocative manner to remind that there should be rules not to break.

As for assault rifle, I can hardly be good enough with it for several medical reasons still I don't think it is so bad way to spend my otherwise worthless life. Just to remind of rules.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Nope. I offered you a 'different point of view' about revolution - it was a while ago, probably you forgot already.

I remember now. Something about believing in the spark which could set a fire and make the society a better world. I'm probably way too cynical to share that view however noble that might seem.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Being a nation is an energy that can be put to good or bad.

Yes, I got that too. You feel synergy when you connect with your nation. That's a good feeling, but the thing is that some people have a certain experience in life and they are disillusioned. I don't think you can blame them too.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

And I see and feel that nowadays Russian way of being a nation is strongly destructive to its neighbours and - in a long term - to themselves. I can't dictate a way to be a nation, but that is a disaster and I feel myself obliged to claim it in most provocative manner to remind that there should be rules not to break.

That would be way too cool had it been tried by the history and worked. Unfortunately, the history shows not once and not twice that the grandchildren could be going to fight and die for a country which formed by killing their grandparents and taking their land into the larger formation which would be considered the new Motherland from now on. And those who would disagree with that would be killed or enslaved. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

As for assault rifle, I can hardly be good enough with it for several medical reasons still I don't think it is so bad way to spend my otherwise worthless life. Just to remind of rules.

I'm pretty sure I hear sarcasm in your voice, because otherwise (as someone who spent some time with the assault rifle) I can assure you there's not a single thing in the world which is more useless and evil than that. And 'evil' in the meaning of 'destructive' (as opposed to 'good' meaning constructive or creative). And please don't ask me for details. Whatever creative you're doing in your life is good and whatever destructive is bad. Teaching somebody else the rules is good as long as it's creative. But teaching somebody else the rules with the assault rifle is bad as you will only teach them the hatred, which would lead to another destruction. That is one of my principles in life.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How about this though, it-ogo: If you get rid of the parts of the country that are not really loyal to Kiev anyway, parts of Eastern Ukraine, Southern or wherever (they become independent, or go to Russia), then THE REST of the country can do the "Western" thing, follow all the instructions of the EU, IMF, USA and what not, and eventually become an EU member.

I wrote many kilobytes of text in Russian about my position in quite sophisticated manner. In short: I am quite tolerant with not having Crimea in Ukraine but strongly unhappy with a way it was made. I believe that the "civilized divorce" was quite possible in realty of Ukraine, if population of Crimea formed and expressed their will explicitly and sequentially.

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger. If we remember that the same army conducted and supported effective ethnic cleanings of Georgians in South Ossetia in 2008 without any consequences, I think that bad behavior of Crimean Tatars can cost them much. That's why they are perfectly quiet now unlike several last years. And I doubt that anybody really cared to calculate the votes of that express-referendum.

From the viewpoint of Ukraine. We experienced heaviest humiliation in the difficult period of time and can never be sure any more that we are safe from foreign military invasion from the East. Ukrainian society is radicalizing and instead of analysing consequences of our revolution and making responsible decisions is put to hysteria of hatred similar to the permanent heavy hatred hysteria of Russia supported by all Russian TV channels 24/7 (about everything - homosexuals, Pussy riot, paedophilia, USA, Europe, Ukraine, Syria etc.) And nothing can be done. Russia got a weak sparring partner in its hatred-chauvinist boxing inspired by Russian authorities to distract the population from economical problems. And that looks like the real reason of the inasion.

That is my view.

About EU etc - later.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

That is one of my principles in life.

So finally you are not just asking question. You have some principles and don't go to overcome them. No?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

So finally you are not just asking question. You have some principles and don't go to overcome them. No?

Show me a person without any principles. I will try my best to steer clear of them...

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger.

As a person who grew up in Crimea and still has a lot of friends and relatives there, including Crimean Tatars, I'm sorry to say that you failed SPECTACULARLY at your attempt at emulating the Crimean POV. And thank you for calling the majority of Crimeans "happy slaves" for having guts to oppose our mock government (peacfully, I might add). You are being very kind.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

So finally you are not just asking question. You have some principles and don't go to overcome them. No?

Ok, ok, you got me. Do you really want my recipe for what Ukrainians should do under the circumstances? Ok, hear the peoples for the Great Crocodile will tell you exactly what to do with your lives blah-blah-blah..

First, Ukraine should recognize the annexation of Crimea. But, there's a catch - Crimea nationalized Ukrainian public property (stole that is, oh why? is the government really full of criminals?), so there are two legal things Ukraine should demand:

1. The independent estimate of the property nationalized, and
2. The independent estimate of the yearly losses to Ukraine (e.g. the excavation of natural gas deposits).

Then, once the monetary equivalent is established, Ukraine should demand contributions from Russia (and there would be plenty of room for negotiations on that). Then, if Russia does not comply, Ukraine (and other countries) have the full right according to the international law to issue seizures of Russian property worldwide as compensation.

At the same time, Ukraine should slice its army to about a third of what it is now. That would not compromise the country's security as the recent events clearly showed that Ukrainian defence forces are next to being useless furniture in case they are needed, but they eat a considerable amount of the budget pie on the regular basis. Instead, Ukraine should follow Israel's example: get free money from the US in order to purchase the old US-made weapon and only spend efforts on modernizing that. That way Ukraine's spendings would go to develop the internal IT and applied sciences market to improve on the control of the military vehicles (mainly for the Air Force). In 20 years, Ukrainian air force might become somewhat competitive with Russian air forces.

Somehow, I'm pretty sure Ukraine's initiative would be greeted with applause throughout the world.

That way Ukraine will kill two ducks in one shot:

1. Ukraine will stop its regular contribution to Crimean's budget, and
2. Ukraine will get hefty amounts which could be put in the pocket of Ukrainian politicians spent on improving Ukrainian infrastructure.

So, after hearing only one of the possible alternatives could you really support of what is happening instead?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

As a person who grew up in Crimea and still has a lot of friends and relatives there, including Crimean Tatars, I'm sorry to say that you failed SPECTACULARLY at your attempt at emulating the Crimean POV. And thank you for calling the majority of Crimeans "happy slaves" for having guts to oppose our mock government (peacfully, I might add). You are being very kind.

I am always very kind - that is my natural feature, Mohammad. To provide correct formulations: of course it was MY POV on what is going on in Crimea and on what is going on in Ukraine as a consequence of Crimean annexation.

I can agree that some people had guts protesting and fighting tatars with plastic bottles full of water before Russian invasion. And I can agree that many (maybe most - now we have no chance to know it for sure) Crimeans have a POV different from my. As for slaves, we'll see - for example Abkhazians proved that they are not puppets of the Kremlin but actual people, when raised against the decision provided by the Kremlin in 2004-2005. Obviously some day Kremlin's decision will come in contradiction to local interests and then I'll have a chance to change my opinion about slaves and guts. Keep in touch with your friends to not miss the situation.

One doesn't need guts to oppose mock government but one needs guts to oppose Kremlin.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, after hearing only one of the possible alternatives could you really support of what is happening instead?

Nope. I mainly agree to your analysis with some additions maybe. But Ukrainian society should survive the hysteria first and put it down in some way (providing that Mr. Poo will spend giant resources to keep it on the same level). Until that no politicians are able to make sane statements and actions and not lose the position. That is the downside of the notorious checks-and-balances machine that actually works in Ukraine even if in a specifis way.