Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by Lampada

I repeat. One more time I have to delete personal insults, you'll be banned for 7 days.

...and this damn forum will be blocked indefinitely.

And the new one will start as soon as it's possible.

Hmmm, nothing in there about threatening DOS attacks...

Throbert McGee, is this a guy who was unhappy in marriage?

It's offtopic, though.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

These "warning shots" were against some stupid Ukrainian soldiers who were provoking a conflict. All the commands of the illegal Government are criminal, so to prevent the Ukrainian squads from doing foolishness, Russian troops blocked their Ukrainian colleagues and partially disarmed them.

This bullshit about 123% was derived from a mistake made by the official of Crimea. He pronounced (only one time) the numbers wrong right on the air, thus this mistake was immediately multiplied by the enemies of Russia.

So, he's inept then. I don't buy the 'warning shots' excuse, sorry. But, you and others supporting this farce didn't comment on this:
" Also, no option for 'status quo' - even though that would be a low percentage vote. It still needs to be an option. Pootin just utilizes the illusion of 'democracy' to get the desired result."

I'ts probably the most blatant and obvious among the assertions that the referendum wasn't fair. Just because a majority votes to secede, whether it's 50 + 1 or over 80%, there needs to be balance with the referendum. Who arranged it? Pro-Russian Crimean officials. Who decided the wording and questioning? Same. Yes, Russian soldiers were already there. Big deal. It just made it that much easier to take over and ensure they get the results they wanted. For the record, I think the referendum would have went, more or less the same so I am arguing only on principle and the ethical viewpoint. Of course, few seem to care about that here. Also, I would object to how soon the referendum was taken. There was little to no consultation with the rest of Ukraine. Illegal, illegimate, evil beyond anything you can think of etc. etc. blah blah, there are arguments to support any of those accusations to a great extent, but there wasn't any consulation or discussion. Ten days?!? I think when you break up a country, there should be some discussion and consultation with all parties even if you have issues with them.

The 123% can be a big pile of BS but it doesn't mean the rest of the argument is discredited.

I don't buy the 'warning shots' excuse, sorry.

It's completely your problem. I don't give a fck, sorry.

" Also, no option for 'status quo' - even though that would be a low percentage vote. It still needs to be an option. Pootin just utilizes the illusion of 'democracy' to get the desired result."

How can I argue with a person who even doesn't know what questions were in the voting paper? You look incompetent.

Pro-Russian Crimean officials. Who decided the wording and questioning? Same.

What do you mean? You think we allow you or other impudent Americans to decide which questions must be? LOL

Russian soldiers were already there. Big deal. It just made it that much easier to take over and ensure they get the results they wanted.

Russian soldiers had nothing to do with the referendum. And you know it for sure. Also they couldn't influence on the result.

there wasn't any consulation or discussion.

With whom? It's the business of Russian people and people of Crimea. All the needed consultations were conducted. Too little time? It's our problem, not yours. When Texas, Scotland or Quebec will separate, I will be the last man who cares about their speed.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

How can I argue with a person who even doesn't know what questions were in the voting paper? You look incompetent.


What do you mean? You think we allow you or other impudent Americans to decide which questions must be? LOL


Russian soldiers had nothing to do with the referendum. And you know it for sure. Also they couldn't influence on the result.


With whom? It's the business of Russian people and people of Crimea. All the needed consultations were conducted. Too little time? It's our problem, not yours. When Texas, Scotland or Quebec will separate, I will be the last man who cares about their speed.

"How can I argue with a person who even doesn't know what questions were in the voting paper? You look incompetent."
LOL! It's been translated and is all over the referendum topics online. I had it translated, also. You can't argue because you are not good at debate.

"What do you mean? You think we allow you or other impudent Americans to decide which questions must be? LOL"
I'm not American. I know from other posts of yours, you don't respect that Ukrainians might want a voice. Yes, even if they are misled, they still have a voice in their own country - the parts left, anyway.

"Russian soldiers had nothing to do with the referendum. And you know it for sure. Also they couldn't influence on the result."
They made sure no one met with anyone in Crimea to talk about it, didn't they? Your responses are getting tedious.

"With whom? It's the business of Russian people and people of Crimea. All the needed consultations were conducted."
Sure they were. I know you value freedoms and rights (yeah, right). Maybe when you personally feel yours are impinged, you might sing a different tune but your outlook is all self-centered and centric. It's good that the Russians got what they wanted. They are misled like Ukrainians, though, but they'll find out soon enough. However, the *mob majority* rules so at least you like that part of 'democracy' (LOL).

Originally Posted by Paul G.

...and this damn forum will be blocked indefinitely.

And the new one will start as soon as it's possible.

Спасибо за предупреждение. Я поставлю в известность МастерАдмина.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Statistic of using Ukrainian dialect (by yandex.ru, 2010):



As you can see, 80-90% of the people use Great-Russian dialect in everyday situations. Even in such russophobe regions as Ivano-Frankovskaya they use Ukrainian dialect only for 30%.
It's not an official statistic, of course, just for your information.

Also there is an official conclusion of some European commission (I don't remember how it's named), according to the conclusion, Great-Russian dialect is native for more than 80% of the Ukrainian citizens (I don't remember exact numbers, it's something like 83% or 87%).

Oh boy...

I haven`t seen such a bullshit for ages. Don`t you think that they simply use Google instead?

*exhales* Russian propaganda works well for russians. But, not on everyone. Despite of the fact that I`m russian, that never worked for me. Now, why do they dare to try it on a western community?

Can certain people stop discussing Crimea and the referendum in this thread please? You are distracting the topic which is Eastern Ukraine. There is one special thread for Crimea and one generic thread for anything Ukraine-related where you can discuss Crimea.

LOL! It's been translated and is all over the referendum topics online. I had it translated, also. You can't argue because you are not good at debate.

If you had it translated, why did you write this bullshit about "status-quo"? They could vote for Ukraine as well. There was such a question.

you don't respect that Ukrainians might want a voice. Yes, even if they are misled, they still have a voice in their own country - the parts left, anyway.

Firstly, de jure there is no such country as Ukraine. So even if I want to ask someone I can't. Well, Americans can do that because this criminal Ukrainian Government is kinda "twin soul" for them.
Secondly, the right of Nations to self-determination doesn't imply asking someone. A nation just postulates its will and that's all. Of course, you know it, too. Because there is Kosovo's precedent, for example.

They made sure no one met with anyone in Crimea to talk about it, didn't they?

I don't understand the question. What do you mean? Who did meet with? Russian soldiers with the citizens? Or the citizens with each other?
Russian soldiers live in Crimea as ordinary people, with their families etc. I don't understand what you meant.
Anyway, Russian soldiers had nothing to do with the result. They just protected important objects because there was likelihood that Ukraininan soldiers (well, some of them) might fulfil criminal commands from Kiev. I even don't speak about armed Nazi bandits who wanted to come to Crimea and "teach" its inhabitants how to live further. Oh, I'm sure it would be a democratic choice and you would approve it!

They are misled like Ukrainians, though, but they'll find out soon enough.

I don't understand your hint. What will we find out? Make it clear and afterwards we can check it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Can certain people stop discussing Crimea and the referendum in this thread please? You are distracting the topic which is Eastern Ukraine. There is one special thread for Crimea and one generic thread for anything Ukraine-related where you can discuss Crimea.

Ok, you're right.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

his response to questions, see above.

Thanks for answering this. (Anyone reading his response, note that he lives in Eastern Ukraine, so his response is super relevant).

Here is how I understand your response.

• Ethnicity is not really relevant to this and people's ethnicity in this part of the world is a complex issues - whether Ukrainian, Russian, a mix or something else.
• Everybody speaks Russian in everyday life, because it's convenient.
• People are not well off, but they have seen much worse times if they remember the 1990s.
• There is no strong sense of nationality in this region - either way.
• Many people are attracted by the possibility of higher incomes as a result from being Russian citizens rather than Ukrainian. (Maybe because of the Soviet legacy, a lot of people don't feel a buzz in their heart at the thought of Ukraine, because they grew up identifying themselves primarily as Soviet)
• Nobody is discriminated in Eastern Ukraine and there IS TV in Russian.
• The protesters in Eastern Ukraine have not formulated any specific demands and some may be there just to fight with no particular reason.
• You had a complete u-turn in your view of Russia because Putin choose not to respect Ukraine's borders.

[*]Ethnicity is not really relevant to this and people's ethnicity in this part of the world is a complex issues - whether Ukrainian, Russian, a mix or something else.

Yes, though ethnic jews can have their own view. I did meet in my life several expressions of antisemitism as private opinions, if it is really a problem, only jews can say.

All other ethnoses are treated the same.

• Everybody speaks Russian in everyday life, because it's convenient.
• People are not well off, but they have seen much worse times if they remember the 1990s.
• There is no strong sense of nationality in this region - either way.
• Many people are attracted by the possibility of higher incomes as a result from being Russian citizens rather than Ukrainian. (Maybe because of the Soviet legacy, a lot of people don't feel a buzz in their heart at the thought of Ukraine, because they grew up identifying themselves primarily as Soviet)
• Nobody is discriminated in Eastern Ukraine and there IS TV in Russian.

Yes.

• The protesters in Eastern Ukraine have not formulated any specific demands and some may be there just to fight with no particular reason.

That's my impression.

You had a complete u-turn in your view of Russia because Putin choose not to respect Ukraine's borders.

Yes.

I have a question here. The so-called 'temporary government' in Ukraine, as the title suggests, were supposed to be temporary until the new elections would make a new Parliament and a new government. That, I think, was the plan. Now, the temporary government had already signed a couple of historic documents with huge long-term implications. Unilaterally, I stress. Without much consultation with the society. So, my question is when is the new Maidan planned to oust the power-greedy individuals who by all means exceeded their authority and start the trial in the Supreme Court of Ukraine subsequently cancelling their actions as anti-constitutional?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Now, the temporary government had already signed a couple of historic documents with huge long-term implications. Unilaterally, I stress. Without much consultation with the society.

I got the impression that this was the plan right from the beginning. Bring up a new government, quickly sell everything they could sell, sign a few compelling treaties and inspire a near civil-war situation. Next Yulya will appear all in white and bring peace to Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I have a question here. The so-called 'temporary government' in Ukraine, as the title suggests, were supposed to be temporary until the new elections would make a new Parliament and a new government. That, I think, was the plan. Now, the temporary government had already signed a couple of historic documents with huge long-term implications. Unilaterally, I stress. Without much consultation with the society. So, my question is when is the new Maidan planned to oust the power-greedy individuals who by all means exceeded their authority and start the trial in the Supreme Court of Ukraine subsequently cancelling their actions as anti-constitutional?

After the victory in the war. During the foreign invasion even temporary government obviously have bigger credits.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

After the victory in a war.

What war?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I have a question here. The so-called 'temporary government' in Ukraine, as the title suggests, were supposed to be temporary until the new elections would make a new Parliament and a new government. That, I think, was the plan. Now, the temporary government had already signed a couple of historic documents with huge long-term implications. Unilaterally, I stress. Without much consultation with the society. So, my question is when is the new Maidan planned to oust the power-greedy individuals who by all means exceeded their authority and start the trial in the Supreme Court of Ukraine subsequently cancelling their actions as anti-constitutional?

Why don't you explain it? You had all the answers before. Most here are cowards and won't. Or they're Putinoids and repeat the same old story ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

What war?

The war Russia is conducting against us.

There is no war Russia is conducting against Ukraine. Crimea left Ukraine and joined Russia. It's their sovereign democratic right. The 'temporary government' is too busy making huge decisions about the future of Ukraine (which they have no authority to) and not making the immediate important decisions about Ukrainians who actually need their directions (what they actually supposed to do). It's like giving access to your bank account to somebody to pay for the ongoing expenses like phone bills for a couple of months just to find out they have sold your house and purchased a new yacht. Very nice.

The government should decide how to fairly treat the Ukrainian military personell which is stuck in Crimea, but they have no directions from the government. At the best, the government said they should not surrender, without giving them hope to actually not surrender. Does it mean the Ukrainian government want those guys to die? Hmm..

Заблокированные на Донузлаве украинские моряки требуют от Киева конкретных решений