Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

But Ukrainian society should survive the hysteria first and put it down in some way (providing that Mr. Poo will spend giant resources to keep it on the same level). Until that no politicians are able to make sane statements and actions and not lose the position.

Ok, so I think first we have agreement in principle that Ukraine has many legal options (above was just one possible, maybe not even close to be the best one). And the above scenario, however anti-Russian that might sound, might actually be very beneficial for Russia as well. Previously, the gas price agreements between Russia and Ukraine were unclear with the uncertain future. In the new situation, Moscow could just continue to pump the gas with the old prices, but now everybody will understand the fixed amounts and the purpose. So, as usual, that legal stuff could actually improve the relationship between Moscow and Kiev as opposed to what's happening today. And, like I said, the room for the price negotiation could also play well распил и откат in favour of the Russian and Ukrainian criminals in power political elites.

See? A transposition of the conflict from the domain of political ambitions into the domain of financial ambitions could play well for both sides as the transformations applied in the financial domain (when transposed back) could yield to the benefits in the political domain. The full effect of which is yet to be studied.

Just say 'no' to the assault rifle!

Originally Posted by Crocodile

See? A transposition of the conflict from the domain of political ambitions into the domain of financial ambitions could play well for both sides as the transformations applied in the financial domain (when transposed back) could yield to the benefits in the political domain. The full effect of which is yet to be studied.

Until MP desides to change domains again... and again... and again... And at each new position positively thinking people can find the basis for mutually profitable collaboration cooperation.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Just say 'no' to the assault rifle!

I was pleased to scare you so much. Don't touch my weapon! I sitill didn't finish putting next nick on its club.


Ты бы лучше отреагировал на вот этот пост. Мне действительно очень интересно, что конкретно твои крымские знакомые подразумевают под украинизацией по самое не хочу. А то вот так вот живешь буквально в эпицентре и не замечаешь...

255.jpg
Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Всё правильно. Хороший план. Главное, полностью легитимный.
Люди требуют возвращения законного президента, Янукович возглавляет антибандеровские регионы и объявляет их территорией настоящей Украины, где действует Конституция. После чего на штыках российской армии въезжает в Киев. 30-го апреля Ярош принимает яд, через неделю 8 мая бандерами подписывается капитуляция, а 9 мая на Украине, в России и Белоруссии проходит праздничный салют.

Originally Posted by E-learner

255.jpg
Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Я же говорю - недовольство есть, вменяемых идей - нет. Вплоть аж даже до такого. Януковича не уважает никто - наверняка соображения типа как у Пауля. Потому, собственно, и по-английску.

Originally Posted by E-learner

Сегодня в Донецке, Луганске и Мариуполе митингующие потребовали от Януковича вернуться.

Стоит признать - это более, чем удивительно.
Такое впечатление, что никто толком не знает, что им делать. Кроме, разве что, Яценюка. Правда, на какое государство работает этот человек, впору задуматься. Вряд ли это Украина.

Interesting article?
The Mafia Ruling Ukraine’s Mobs - The Daily Beast

It really further destroys the arguments of the Putinoids. I like it for that reason.

I chat with a Russian in Moscow who verified this. Also, a Ukrainian friend said that Putin sent criminals to Ukraine so that is also confirmation. They told me this before this article was online.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I wrote many kilobytes of text in Russian about my position in quite sophisticated manner. In short: I am quite tolerant with not having Crimea in Ukraine but strongly unhappy with a way it was made. I believe that the "civilized divorce" was quite possible in realty of Ukraine, if population of Crimea formed and expressed their will explicitly and sequentially.

Now from the Crimean viewpoint. The army came, put off old Crimean government in unclear way, brought to "power" some marginal politicians, stopped all political processes and open discussions in Crimean society (that were abundant and intensive) and provided the population with new order making clear that it is a fact no matter whoever whatever thinks and votes in Crimea. Now the Crimeans are divided into happy slaves enjoying lack of choice and responcibility, and outcasts who may disagree and therefore in danger. If we remember that the same army conducted and supported effective ethnic cleanings of Georgians in South Ossetia in 2008 without any consequences, I think that bad behavior of Crimean Tatars can cost them much. That's why they are perfectly quiet now unlike several last years. And I doubt that anybody really cared to calculate the votes of that express-referendum.

From the viewpoint of Ukraine. We experienced heaviest humiliation in the difficult period of time and can never be sure any more that we are safe from foreign military invasion from the East. Ukrainian society is radicalizing and instead of analysing consequences of our revolution and making responsible decisions is put to hysteria of hatred similar to the permanent heavy hatred hysteria of Russia supported by all Russian TV channels 24/7 (about everything - homosexuals, Pussy riot, paedophilia, USA, Europe, Ukraine, Syria etc.) And nothing can be done. Russia got a weak sparring partner in its hatred-chauvinist boxing inspired by Russian authorities to distract the population from economical problems. And that looks like the real reason of the inasion.

That is my view.

About EU etc - later.

Thanks for this response. It took a while to take it in.
I am just not that shocked about Crimea. If it was AGAINST the will of the people there, I would condemn it.
But they seem really happy with very few exceptions.

After being told what a horrible and aggressive country Russia is for over 10 years now - if this is the worst that Russia does, then I am just not that impressed. The USA does MUCH worse things.

Of course, it's easy for me to say - it's not my country that is losing a region.

On the other hand - I live in the UK at the moment, and Scotland is voting about independence. If the independence wins (which it won't...) then they are welcome to leave. 100%, it's their call. If they wanted to join France they'd be welcome too, as far as I am concerned.

I think Russia acted in an opportunistic way. Not 100% sporting. Discussing the matter with Kiev first, and setting a later date for the referndum would have been more respectful of Ukraine. On the other hand, there was nobody to discuss with, at the time, and the Crimeans were the driving force as far as I understand.

And as for "naughty" behaviour by a country; we see so much worse than that in international politics, thinking primarily of the US All Russia did was without bloodshed annex an area they previously had, with people who want to be Russians. Granted, they took advantage of Ukraine's misfortune.

I think Ukrainians could have prevented it from happening by being a stable and non-corrupt country. Instead, it was in such a poor state that it could have an area snatched from right under its nose.

I think that unless Ukraine gets its house in order, this type of thing could continue. Europe / USA will run the economy cream all the profits out of the country. And if total chaos breaks out, Russia might decide to annex more of Ukraine.

Ukraine needs to sort itself out. The EU and USA are no more friends than Russia. They stirred up people and brought on the situation that lead to this, and now they are using the situation for propaganda purposes.
Meanwhile the Ukrainians are the losers and victims.

Originally Posted by Hanna

...I am just not that shocked about Crimea. If it was AGAINST the will of the people there, I would condemn it.
But they seem really happy with very few exceptions.

I don't care much about USA crimes for now. Anyway I believe USA in not a threat to the peace in Europe, but Russia is. Europe becomes much less safe place with this new situation.

Russia is weak. It is really weak, that is why it can't make really much evil and that is why its evil is not compensated by its good because it has neither resources nor will to make good left after making evil. As for USA, it is, for example, still world scientific and technological engine (I doubt that other world together is able to support notable practical sci/tech progress without USA - the money spent and number of papers published are giant but the effect is...) - and many other things you know as well as I do.

Ukrainian economy and courts are corrupt but Russian economy and courts are corrupt even more - the difference in income is made by money from oil and gas export. Ukraine wants to change. Russia does not want to change and does not want Ukraine to change. I believe the only reason of the Crimea annexation is to prevent Ukraine to change - to keep it poor and to accuse Europe and USA in the poverty of Ukraine to keep Russian citizens calm. Because Crimea is a great encumbrance to Russia economically and politically and I see no reason to annex it other than hurt Ukraine and distract Russians from internal problems.

USA and Europe are neutral to the Ukraine, but Russia proved to be a sworn enemy and we are forced to seek any help we can get. Also we want to share European values even if sceptical about European buerocracy.

Annexation wasn't made against the will of the majority of Crimeans, but they had not been asked (whatever referendum performances are made) and they will not be asked about anything any more. And you will not see unhappy Crimeans any more even if they are.

That's my point.

I think Ukrainians could have prevented it from happening by being a stable and non-corrupt country.

Yes, as I say before, rape victims are mostly responsible for being raped because of their bad behavior, provocative clothes and being too weak to resist. I congratulate you with such kind of logic.

Мелитополь:

Originally Posted by Paul G.

1. I had got the point. But I don't want "to win friends" and blah-blah-blah.
2. If you support violence, be ready to feel the same on your own back. Is it too complicated truth?

Thanks for being a good sport about the Dracula joke!

As for your other points, I completely agree that between Kosovo and our own American Revolution (not to mention the North's position in the Civil War!) the U.S. is certainly living in the proverbial glass house, and shouldn't throw stones.

And your own American officials already said about that when they explained Kosovo precedent.
I know that Americans are very weak in geography. But what about history? It would be a good idea to organize a referendum about independence in the UK the 18 century. What do you think, why did the bloody American colonists violate the rights of all the peoples of the UK?

P.S. Thanks for the grammar corrections! Убежает was really just a typo -- or should I say a "think-o", or brain fart? -- I mean, I know the conjugations of бегать/бежать if I had thought about it for two more seconds.

However, I really had no idea of the correct preposition if you throw garlic "at" someone (meaning "to throw it in someone's general direction, intending to hit them with it but not necessarily succeeding in hitting the target.")

I also have great trouble with expressions like "to kiss someone's hand"; "to slap someone's cheek"; "to hit someone in the nose"; "to step on someone's foot," "to pin a medal on someone's coat," "to spill paint/sauce/mud on someone's clothes," etc. (cases where there are logically two direct objects -- the person, and some thing or body part associated with the person.)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You see, I'm just asking. I can't possibly know everything and I realize I am just as a victim of propaganda as everybody else. If my question makes somebody think and make their own conclusion, I'm happy enough even if their conclusions are way different than mine. If I get a decent answer to my question, I will happily accept it. An answer in Robert Jordan style ('For Whom the Bell Tolls'): "I will blow up the bridge first, and only then ..." are the only ones I do not want to hear. If you think Russia is acting illegitimate, act fully legitimate and only then you can be right and Russia will be wrong, otherwise at the very best, you're both wrong. IMHO.

So, the two wrongs make a right logic? Are you ten?

Then you stated this in another post:
'There is no war Russia is conducting against Ukraine.'
There's not?!? LOL! They surrendered it. They didn't oppose the anti-democratic methods used. That's all.

'Does it mean the Ukrainian government want those guys to die?'
Of course. Both Putin and the current Ukrainian government don't care about Ukrainians.

I guess, when you can spread propaganda like Russia does, have criminals in Crimea decide things and brainwash the population into supporting a corrupt and unethical regime, then one can consider it a 'democratic' decision (to become annexed).

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

However, I really had no idea of the correct preposition if you throw garlic "at" someone (meaning "to throw it in someone's general direction, intending to hit them with it but not necessarily succeeding in hitting the target.")

"На" implies that you throw it "on" from above, as if it falls "on the surface/object". Я бросил чеснок на стол. So when you said "на Paul" (oops, we got a pun here) it means you threw garlic at Paul from above, for example, from a window.
"В" = "at". Я бросил чеснок в стену. Here I wanted to strike the wall.

I also have great trouble with expressions like "to kiss someone's hand"; "to slap someone's cheek"; "to hit someone in the nose"; "to step on someone's foot," "to pin a medal on someone's coat," "to spill paint/sauce/mud on someone's clothes," etc. (cases where there are logically two direct objects -- the person, and some thing or body part associated with the person.)

to kiss someone's hand = поцеловать [чью-нибудь] руку
to hit someone in the nose = ударить [кого-нибудь] в нос (по носу)
to step on someone's foot = наступить на [чью-нибудь] ногу
to pin a medal on someone's coat = приколоть медаль на [чей-нибудь] мундир/китель

Годный наброс на вентилятор от ЛДПР:
Взгляд ЛДПР на исторические причины кризиса на Украине

Here's a translation into English (to all readers - nobody takes LDPR seriously, neither should you):
The majority of experts’ assessments of the overwhelming wave of disagreements that had overthrown the inner political situation in Ukraine which had not been very stable to begin with are rather single sided.
Social problems that remain unsolved, a likely economic collapse, the confrontation of common sense with the apologists of not even nationalistic, but blatant Nazi slogan ‘Ukraine is for the Ukrainians’ – all of it takes its place. The main reason of the current resentment that poisons the Ukrainian society, however, remains unsaid or gets mixed with other things by the supporters of the idea of ‘irreversibility of history’. Still, many problems that exist in Ukraine are closely connected with the history of Ukrainian statesmanship. Nations that are fundamentally incompatible by their psychology, nations that have been warring each other for centuries essentially ended up on the same territory.
Let us turn the recent pages of history. Right before the war (translator’s note: WW 2) the Soviet Government trying to safeguard USSR and its allies was practically forced to integrate in the Soviet Union a part of Bessarabia which belonged to Romania. Nowadays, this is Chernovitskaya oblast on the Ukrainian territory. Aside from that, geopolitical reasons dictated the expansion of USSR to a whole number of indigenous Polish territories. These were Volynskaya, Lvovskaya, Ternopolskaya, Ivano-Frankovskaya and Rovenskaya oblasts. The lands listed above have always been a part of Poland and relations between the Poles and the Ukrainians have always been tense. Mutual intolerance for many years has been accompanied by open fights that frequently grew into bloody massacres – whole settlements have been destroyed in a cruel confrontation of Ukrainian and Polish nationalists.
Another spectacular example is Zakarpatye region – a territory that is related to Hungary both ethnically and historically.
How it is possible to calm down the whole region which boils with hatred and threatening to remain one of the most troublesome spot on the European map? LDPR offers a solution. Why don’t Poland, Romania and Hungary think about holding referendums on the abovementioned Ukrainian oblasts and also in adjacent territories in Poland, Romania and Hungary? There could be only one question: a possibility of returning Chernovitskaya oblast to Romania, Zakarpatskaya oblast to Hungary, and 5 Ukrainian olasts (Volynskaya, Lvovskaya, Ternopolskaya, Ivano-Frankovskaya and Rovenskaya) to Poland. An objective and unbiased view on historical justness sided with refusal of pseudopatriotic speculations will lead to a long-hoped harmony in international relations.
In this case Central Ukraine could free itself from the excess tensions that are mainly related to the incompatibility of populations that live on the territories which were forcefully annexed by Stalin from Poland, Hungary and Romania in favor of USSR due to political realities of that time.
We observe similar processes in the East and Southeast of Ukraine. The absolute majority of these territories is inclined towards Russia and wants to be a part of Russia. The referendum in Crimea only illustrates the desires and will of the people that populate this peninsula. Same processes take part in other parts of Europe like Kosovo, Scotland, Catalonia, Bascony, and others.
One cannot refer all this to peoples’ right for self-determination alone. All western regions of the present Ukraine have always been parts of Poland. One of the practical proofs for that are the property deeds presented by the father of LDPR leader V. V. Zhirinovsky for a factory and lands in Rovenskaya oblast. All these documents as well as their notary certification are written in Polish. Both Ukraine and Ukrainian law was out of the question these days. And Poland has a full right to desire the return of these lands back under the Polish flag.
Not very long ago there was another grim anniversary of slaughtering of Poles on the Volyn territory. Looking at the ancient history of Kievan Rus one can see that Volynsko-Podolskoye principality has always been a part of Poland or Rzeczpospolita. It has never even been a part of Kievan Rus. It was the subject of territorial disputes between Lithuania and Poland!
LDPR sincerely loves and respects Ukraine and Ukrainians. We have nothing to quarrel over thus the possibility of holding referendums about returning the abovementioned lands to Poland, Hungary, Romania and Russia does not infringe the interests of the Ukrainians, but quite the contrary – will bring prosperity and peace to native Ukrainian lands like Kiev, Chernigov, Sumy, Poltava, Zhitomir, Kremenchug, Vinnitsa, Kirovograd…
It is never too late to correct historical mistakes, especially the ones that were made on the brink of the horrible war when the mere survival of the whole nations was at stake. Now there is no Stalin, no threat from Hitler. The world has changed. It’s time to bring a new tone to all these historic questions and decide them all in favor of people who live at the juncture of Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and Russia.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Yes, as I say before, rape victims are mostly responsible for being raped because of their bad behavior, provocative clothes and being too weak to resist. I congratulate you with such kind of logic.

Hm, well these "rape victims" wanted to be raped, if the allegory is continued.

But I really don't want to argue with you about your own country. You know it tons better than I, and your view is more relevant.
And it's not hard to understand that you are extremely angry and feel that you can never trust Russia again. Perhaps you are right. This does set a precedence, namely, if a country is in complete chaos, and there are people in that country who are interested in becoming Russian citizens, then Russia *may* annex it, like with Crimea.
So this might make some other ex Soviet countries a little bit nervous, even if I personally think this was a one-off for a very special region.

The reason I am not against what happened here is because it's obvious that the great majority in Crimea wanted the annexation.

And I hope that Ukraine can find a way forward as a united country, not pulling in two directions and having revolutions.Whether it's East or West.

Hanna, the precedence was first set in Kosovo. Had it not been the secession of Kosovo I don't think Russia would have dared to support Crimea. Then again, maybe not. We'll never know.
Rational European politicians kept saying back then that to allow Kosovo to secede is to open Pandora's box.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Hanna, the precedence was first set in Kosovo. Had it not been the secession of Kosovo I don't think Russia would dared to support Crimea. Then again, maybe not. We'll never know.
Rational European politicians kept saying back then that to allow Kosovo to secede is to open Pandora's box.

How would you say that this compares (or not) with Chechnya in the 1990s?
I really didn't pay any attention to that when it happened, and I have not read up on it, so sorry about my ignorance.
But they wanted to be independent and become a moslem state, didn't they, and become allies with countries like Saudi Arabia.....

But couldn't you say that Russia's position in relation to Chechnya has some similarities to Ukraine's position in relation to Crimea...?
Neither wanted to lose their region...

PS- am aware that a sort of "compromise" solution is in place in Chechnya and that they are "almost " getting their moslem state, without actually leaving the Russian Federation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How would you say that this compares (or not) with Chechnya in the 1990s?

Chechnya was BEFORE Kosovo.

Besides, those were bloody terrorists .

Besides, Chechnya was given independence. They could still have it if they didn't tried to invade Dagestan.

Besides, the years of Chechnya's independence now remembered by the locals as the age of anarchy which left countless kids without school for almost 10 years (Their president Dudaev considered three-year education more than enough).