Thread: Разные вопросы по глаголам (by tiudavidharris

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Смотреть is a cunning verb.
All the following phrases correct:
Смотрю в книгу (и вижу фигу)
Смотрю журнал
Смотрю расписание поездов
Смотрю в окно
Смотрю в бинокль/в микроскоп
Смотрю на экран монитора
Смотрю в монитор
Смотрю в зеркало
Смотрю на пол/потолок
Смотрю на тебя
Смотрю в тарелку
Смотрю в зубы коню (дарёному)

Can anyone see any system? I can't

Let's try.

Смотреть + Accusative (without prep.)
a) the same as рассматривать, осматривать, оценивать - to inspect, to examine.
b) to watch the performance, the action (представление, шоу, парад, казнь, word телевизор here is used instead of телепередачи - it is called metonymy)

Смотреть + на + Accusative
to look at smth., to stare at the object without any specifically denoted direction of interest.

Смотреть + в + Accusative
to look through smth. or inside smth. at smth else (в бинокль на Кеннеди, в зеркало на себя, в телевизор на кинескоп, в книгу на фигу)

here is one exclusion: should be "смотреть зубы коню", I think it is again metonymy: "зубы" is used instead of "рот".

Преступник должен сидеть, а следователь - сажать.

Преступник должен сидеть, а следователь - сажать.

Иногда - наоборот. Следак заслуживает глубокой посадки, а преступник - оказывается и не преступник вовсе.

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

Иногда - наоборот. Следак заслуживает глубокой посадки, а преступник - оказывается и не преступник вовсе.

При нормальной жизни - так, а не наоборот.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

...BTW, "to be in the prison" is "сидеть": Преступники сидят в тюрьме.

Остап Бендер says this in movie Twelve Chairs, to wife of Никифор Ляпис-Трубецкой, 'Either you stand or he sits' pretending he is some official, to get the chair.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

here is one exclusion: should be "смотреть зубы коню", I think it is again metonymy: "зубы" is used instead of "рот".

I think not. It is from "Дарёному коню в зубы не смотрят" (You don't look at the teeth of a horse you got as a gift), isn't it? The meaning behind the phrase is that one can estimate the age of the horse examining its teeth. So it is a) no use looking at them if the horse is for free anyway b) kinda rude.
Though the example is not representative for the very basic reason: govenment changes with time. That's where language development is so much like real life.

Originally Posted by Shady_arc

I think not. It is from "Дарёному коню в зубы не смотрят" (You don't look at the teeth of a horse you got as a gift), isn't it? The meaning behind the phrase is that one can estimate the age of the horse examining its teeth. So it is a) no use looking at them if the horse is for free anyway b) kinda rude.
Though the example is not representative for the very basic reason: govenment changes with time. That's where language development is so much like real life.

That's what I mean. Examine teeth = смотреть зубы (like a dentist). But to examine teeth one should look into a mouth, смотреть в рот. Here we have a metonymy when we spread the meaning of рот to зубы to express both ideas simultaneously.

Hello, i am having trouble with the following sentences
and i am wondering if i have the correct idea of using transitive verbs with там or туда
я сажаю дерево там = i am planting a tree there. is this correct?
я сажаю дерево туда = i am planting a tree that way.
я кладу мясо там = i am placing meat there. is this correct?
я кладу мясо туда = i am placing meat that way.

i am also confused with using accusative or prepositional case with the transitive verbs.
я сажаю дерево на землю = i am planting a tree toward the ground. is this correct?
я сажаю дерево на земле = i am planting a tree on the ground.
я кладу мясо на кастрюлю = i am placing meat toward the pan. is this correct?
я кладу мясо на кастрюле = i am placing meat on pan.

i believe i have something wrong because it sounds odd that transitive verbs use or answer the question of 'где' while using accusative case rather than prepositional case.
hopefully i had the right idea previously. please point out corrections, Thanks!

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

Hello, i am having trouble with the following sentences
and i am wondering if i have the correct idea of using transitive verbs with там or туда
я сажаю дерево там = i am planting a tree there. is this correct?
я сажаю дерево туда = i am planting a tree that way.
я кладу мясо там = i am placing meat there. is this correct?
я кладу мясо туда = i am placing meat that way.

I would say, in the examples above the both options are possible. But there are some subtle differences.

Using "там" with the verbs like "класть, ставить, сажать etc." conveys a more generic idea of location: it specifies "where you perform the action", "where the action takes place":
Я сажаю дерево в парке. (or) Я там сажаю дерево. - It means you are in a park now (or you are "there") and being located in the specified place, you perform planting a tree.
Using "туда" is more specific, it specifies a direction, i.e. to where you put something.
E.g., you cannot say "Я сажаю дерево в парк". But you can say: "Я сажаю дерево в землю" (into the ground).

"Я кладу мясо туда" specifies a place to where you put the meat.
"Я кладу мясо там" I think is also valid, but it is more generic (where you are used to put the meat everytime, not only for this specific occasion), so "там" denotes a static location, not a direction. And it may mean a more generic location: a room, a storage etc. where you KEEP meat.
If you specifically mean a bag or a can, then you cannot say "Я кладу мясо там". Only "туда" would be valid.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

i am also confused with using accusative or prepositional case with the transitive verbs.

Exactly the same way as you use "там" and "туда"

Accusative means direction (corresponds to "туда"). Prepostitional means location (corresponds to "там").

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я сажаю дерево на землю = i am planting a tree toward the ground. is this correct?

I would prefer "Я сажаю дерево в землю" because you insert it to inside the ground, not just onto the surface.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я сажаю дерево на земле = i am planting a tree on the ground.

It can be used when you want to specify that "You are planting a tree when you are (yourself) on the ground" or "on the earth".

Compare: Он сажает дерево на Марсе. - He is performing this being on the Mars

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я кладу мясо на кастрюлю = i am placing meat toward the pan. is this correct?

It should be "я кладу мясо в кастрюлю" - I am putting meat to inside the saucepan. Note that "кастрюля" is not any kind of pan. It is usually deep and intended for boiling (not for frying!): http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%...8E%D0%BB%D1%8F. If you mean a pan for frying or roasting, it is "сковорода": http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%...BE%D0%B4%D0%B0, which is shallow.

That is why, you say "в кастрюлю" (to inside, since it is deep) but "на сковороду" (onto the surface), depending on how you are going to cook the meat. The same is with static location:
"мясо сейчас в кастрюле" but "мясо сейчас на сковороде".

If you say "я кладу мясо на кастрюлю" it would be strange, as if the saucepan were covered, and you were putting meat onto the cover.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

я кладу мясо на кастрюле = i am placing meat on pan.

It sounds extremely odd. There are two possible options I can imagine:
1) you are on the covered soucepan yourself and you perform the action when being there
2) or you do it regularly, so as if it were a normal place where you keep meat (on the cover of the saucepan).

Normally, we would never use this phrase.

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

i believe i have something wrong because it sounds odd that transitive verbs use or answer the question of 'где' while using accusative case rather than prepositional case.

No, "где" uses prepositional, not accusative. It is used for STATIC LOCATIONS.
But "куда" uses accusative, and it is used for DIRECTIONS.

там, здесь relates to the static position of the subject while туда, сюда describes the destination of motion or transfer.

я сажаю дерево там - I am there and I am planting the tree.
я сажаю дерево туда - I am planting the tree in such a way that it will be there after I will finish.

The same is with your other examples.

я сажаю дерево в землю = i am planting a tree to the ground. "сажать на землю" means "to land (an airplane)"
я сажаю дерево на земле = i am on the ground and I am planting a tree.
я кладу мясо на кастрюлю = i am placing meat to the top of the pan.
я кладу мясо в кастрюлю = i am placing meat to the pan.
я кладу мясо на кастрюле = I am on the top of the pan (sitting?) and I am placing meat.
я кладу мясо в кастрюле = I am inside the pan (OMG!) and I am placing meat.

In addition,
I think "класть" is sometimes used instead of "хранить", "держать" (= to keep, to store) in colloquial speech. In this case it can be used with "там" (i.e. static location):
Я кладу свои книги здесь = Я храню свои книги здесь (I am keeping my books here). It means you use this place regularly, not just put something there once.

I am not sure if this usage is accepted in the literary language. But people do not always speak the literary language. At least I can hear it in colloquial speech.

thanks again боб уайтман and it-ogo!

Hello again, could i get help to distinguish the difference between these sentences and also thinking of some situations for usage of these sentences?
я сел на стул = i sat on chair (the action of sitting)
я посидел на стул = i sat on chair./i was seated on chair. (the position of sitting)

these seem to have similar usages. for example, if i was narrating what i did in a room with a chair
perhaps my translations in english as wrong aswell which means the following translations are wrong aswell

я садился на стул = i was sitting on chair (the action of sitting)
я сидел на стул = i was sitting on chair (the position of sitting)

Thanks!

Originally Posted by tiudavidharris

Hello again, could i get help to distinguish the difference between these sentences and also thinking of some situations for usage of these sentences?
я сел на стул = i sat on chair (the action of sitting)
я посидел на стул = i sat on chair./i was seated on chair. (the position of sitting)

these seem to have similar usages. for example, if i was narrating what i did in a room with a chair
perhaps my translations in english as wrong aswell which means the following translations are wrong aswell

я садился на стул = i was sitting on chair (the action of sitting)
я сидел на стул = i was sitting on chair (the position of sitting)

Thanks!

1. "я посидел на стул", "я сидел на стул" - one cannot say like that, it is ungrammatical.

2. садиться (imperfective) / сесть (perfective) mean "to sit down": it is the transition from the standing position to the sitting position:

"Я садился на стул" is "I was sitting down onto the chair".
"Я сел на стул" is "I have sat down onto the chair".

3. сидеть (imperfective) means "to sit": it is being in the sitting position (a state, not a transition).

"Я сидел на стуле" - I was sitting on the chair. Note: "на стуле" (Prepositional case), since it is not direction, it is static location.

4. посидеть (perfective) is "to sit for a limited time". The same as "сидеть", but it emphasizes the action was limited in its time duration:

"Я посидел на стуле" - I sat on the chair for some short time.

I constructed the following sentences and have provided translation and usages for each, although i am not sure if they are correct. kindly please correct me if i am wrong:

я смотрю на телевизор (i am looking at a television that is turned off with no show running.)
я смотрю на телевизоры (i am looking at different television models, not the shows running on them. For example, if i was at an electronic appliance store.)
я смотрю телевизоры (i am looking at many televisions that are turned on. for example, if i was a security guard watching different televisions providing video of different areas monitored by many cameras.)
я смотрю на машины (i am looking at different cars in an automobile shop)
я смотрю на машину (i am looking at a car)
я смотрю машину (i am watching a car, this seems incorrect)
я смотрию та машину (i am watching that car, a specific car)

спасибо!

я смотрю на телевизор (i am looking at a television that is turned off with no show running.)
Correct.

я смотрю на телевизоры (i am looking at different television models, not the shows running on them. For example, if i was at an electronic appliance store.)
Correct.

я смотрю телевизоры (i am looking at many televisions that are turned on. for example, if i was a security guard watching different televisions providing video of different areas monitored by many cameras.)
As for a security guard, I would say, “Я смотрю на экраны (мониторы).” We do not call телевизор those appliances. Смотреть телевизор means to be a spectator of a TV show or a TV programme.

я смотрю на машины (i am looking at different cars in an automobile shop)
Correct. Or Я рассматриваю машины (It means to look at more thoroughly, paying attention to details).

я смотрю на машину (i am looking at a car)
Correct. Or the same as above “Я рассматриваю машину”

я смотрю машину (i am watching a car, this seems incorrect)
It’s impossible. Maybe Я слежу за той машиной in the meaning I am watching it as it moves along a road.

я смотрию та машину (i am watching that car, a specific car)
It’s impossible. The same as the previous case.

The number of the noun does not affect the verb anyway.

why are добра and успеха in the genitive case in the following sentences? should they be in inanimate accusative casE?
я всем желала добра
всем пожелали успеха

спасибо

It would probably be best to redirect you to http://masterrussian.net/f15/мы-выпили-чаю-20452/
A similar question has just been discussed there. Note posts 4, 6, 7 and 25.

Originally Posted by Helenej

It would probably be best to redirect you to http://masterrussian.net/f15/мы-выпили-чаю-20452/
A similar question has just been discussed there. Note posts 4, 6, 7 and 25.

Там так напутано, что сам чёрт ногу сломит. Пусть лучше идёт прямо в эти посты.
Спасибо, Леночка!

Originally Posted by Helenej

It would probably be best to redirect you to http://masterrussian.net/f15/мы-выпили-чаю-20452/
A similar question has just been discussed there. Note posts 4, 6, 7 and 25.

I have to apologize. I was wrong here.
The correct answer is given by Medved’s post №28 in
Разные вопросы по грамматике (by tiudavidharris

Though желать may also need the *accusative when the object is defined concretely.
Я желаю именно эту книгу.

P.S. Corrected due to Medved's remark.