Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Deborski

I also do not believe that my value as a human being who happens to be female, should be relegated to being a vessel for a man's sperm and incubating baby humans, either.

You got me totally wrong.

I've not stated what a woman should or should not do, must a woman to have babies or not. It is totally her own business only. I addressed the attitude of the society to the Public Display of Affection (PDA) for straights and gays. The wedding ring and holding hand is also a sort of PDA under the discussion.

The different attitude rises from the different expected income to the society. If the society sees a PDA of a heterosexual couple it expects the income in the form of a baby (not every PDA results in this but some amount of it does). Seeing it many time society became reflecting unconsciously that PDA means babies and encourage the PDA (of course if it is a sort of a weird society that needs babies). The more PDA, the more babies. So the PDA encouragement is a sort of benefit which was granted by a society to a heterosexual couple for a new baby to be born. Then if the society sees the PDA of a homosexual couple it reflects about babies but at the same time realizes that there will not be any babies at all. So the society thinks that it was cheated and discourages the homosexual PDA (especially if the homosexual couples demand the same benefits that were granted to the heterosexual couples for creating babies). If a couple disclosures its PDA to the society then the couple gives a message to the society and the society responds to the message back whether it approves the message or not. The society addresses its strategic needs. There is nothing homophobic or antigay in this, this is just about the public display of affection and its influence onto the society.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I do not believe that granting equality to another minority group in any way hurts my own fight for equality as a woman.

It is not about granting equality. It is about granting benefits (PDA encouragement) for some achievements (babies). If somebody did something he got some benefits (or salary). What kind of equality can be if someone did nothing and ask for the same benefits (or salary)?

Originally Posted by CoffeeCup

You got me totally wrong.

I've not stated what a woman should or should not do, must a woman to have babies or not. It is totally her own business only. I addressed the attitude of the society to the Public Display of Affection (PDA) for straights and gays. The wedding ring and holding hand is also a sort of PDA under the discussion.

It is not about granting equality. It is about granting benefits (PDA encouragement) for some achievements (babies). If somebody did something he got some benefits (or salary). What kind of equality can be if someone did nothing and ask for the same benefits (or salary)?

Let's agree to disagree. I will just say that I do not understand any mindset which thinks that "public displays of affection" are something that should be "allowed" or "not allowed."

When I was a lonely 20-something living in Leningrad, I saw many young Soviet couples kissing (and more) on the late-night metro and it didn't make me think "oh how sweet, they will have a baby!" It made me think, "God I am lonely. I wish I had a boyfriend!" Seeing two men kiss does not in any way threaten me as a heterosexual woman. If they want to kiss, I don't care and it doesn't bother me anymore than watching those young couples making out in Russia did. I'd rather people not have sex in public of course, I don't need to watch the entire act, but people kissing doesn't offend me. I've dated guys in both Russia and America, and the American guys were actually the least likely to kiss me in public. One of my American boyfriends also referred to this as "PDA's" and he was embarrassed if I took his hand in public. I've never understood that mindset and I never will. To each, their own. As for me, I'd like to see more people kissing and holding hands in public and I find that far less offensive than people who fight in public, or rage and belittle each other in public, or humiliate someone in public.

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Cher Turns Down Offer to Perform at Russian Olympics Because of Homophobic Laws


I wonder who is big oligarch?

Originally Posted by Lampada

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Cher Turns Down Offer to Perform at Russian Olympics Because of Homophobic Laws


I wonder who is big oligarch?

I saw that story and it struck me that Cher could have agreed to perform, and that she could have used the opportunity to make a statement by dedicating her song to Russia's gays and lesbians. What would they do, arrest her?

Originally Posted by Deborski

I saw that story and it struck me that Cher could have agreed to perform, and that she could have used the opportunity to make a statement by dedicating her song to Russia's gays and lesbians.

Make a statement to whom? Among some gay men -- at least in the English-speaking world -- Cher has a sort of cult following as a "Diva," but do most non-gay Russians today even care who she is or what she says? (Her last really big hit, "Believe," was in the late 1990s.) So, once again, is the point of all this to make LGBT Westerners feel flattered, special, important as they're watching the Olympics on television in Europe and North America?

Or is the point of this so that Cher can sell tickets to American gay men when they bring her out in a motorized wheelchair for her "No, Wait, THIS Is My Farewell Tour and This Time I Really Mean That It's the Last One", sometime around 2035?

I thought the goal was to be helpful to LGBT people within Russian society!

PS. Okay, hmmm... I just Googled and apparently she did tour Moscow and St. Petersburg in 2004.

PPS. And, admittedly, there will always be a place in my heart for "Gypsies, Tramps and Thieves". But even so, would she really be able to change-the-hearts-and-minds of the Russian public?

PPPS. But on the other hand, I think it's a great idea in a South Park-ish way, in the spirit of Mecha-Streisand.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Make a statement to whom? Among some gay men -- at least in the English-speaking world -- Cher has a sort of cult following as a "Diva," but do most non-gay Russians today even care who she is or what she says? (Her last really big hit, "Believe," was in the late 1990s.) So, once again, is the point of all this to make LGBT Westerners feel flattered, special, important as they're watching the Olympics on television in Europe and North America?

*shrug* It was just a thought.

Guess I can't win for losing.

Bowing out of the discussion again. No matter who I support, I am wrong.

Originally Posted by Deborski

...Guess I can't win for losing.

Bowing out of the discussion again. No matter who I support, I am wrong.

Потому что можно доказать, что угодно, точно также можно доказать и обратное (софизм). Just have to pick your fights or side.

Aggressiveness, toughness, ambition, power - these are masculine traits which society glorifies

I think women are muuuch tougher, even if they seem "белые и пушистые". And as ambitious as men. And there will not be planes, TV, Internet, ... without ambitions.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I think women are muuuch tougher, even if they seem "белые и пушистые". And as ambitious as men. And there will not be planes, TV, Internet, ... without ambitions.

I'd rather say more practical and down-to-earth.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I think women are muuuch tougher, even if they seem "белые и пушистые". And as ambitious as men. And there will not be planes, TV, Internet, ... without ambitions.

There is no question that women can be tough, ambitious and all the other masculine traits can also be applied. I'm not saying women can't be tough. I'm saying that masculine qualities are the ones society values. The other qualities, compassion, kindness, nurturing, gentleness, cooperation - are equally important but society only gives them lip service. In reality, the compassionate one is not the one promoted at work, the ambitious one is. In reality, our countries do not cooperate with each other, they compete and try to out-do each other. I am saying that I think our world would be a better place if society valued feminine qualities as highly as it values masculine qualities.

I wouldn't say so. Otherwise how would you explain jewelry?
But in relation to relationships - may be.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I wouldn't say so. Otherwise how would you explain jewelry?
But in relation to relationships - may be.

I have never owned an expensive piece of jewelry in my life, or a real diamond.

Есть некий парадокс в том, что Америка не любит коммунизм, но любит искать обиженных людей. Тактика коммунистических партий как раз в этом и состоит: найти обиженных и сделать революцию их силами (пролетариат, уголовники и т.д.). У нас в России идеи социализма и защиты угнетённых была популярна даже среди дворян. Но только до революции и гражданской войны. Но сейчас у многих россиян есть иммунитет от революций. Когда КПРФ говорит, что рабочего человека притесняют и поэтому нужно менять власть, я иду и голосую за Единую Россию. Когда США говорят мне, что в РФ обижают ЛГБТ (а также сирот), то у меня срабатывает тот же рефлекс.

Originally Posted by Юрка

... я иду и голосую за Единую Россию.... то у меня срабатывает тот же рефлекс.

Корреспондент: - За кого вы будете голосовать на выборах?
Mужик: - Да зае...
Корреспондент, перебивая: - Правильно! За "Единую Россию"!

If you're looking for an "ancient gay romance"

And even if you're NOT looking for one, this amazing 11-minute "claymation" film (UK, 1995, directed by Barry Purves) depicting Achilles and Patroklos as living statues is definitely worth a look:



It's not really "safe for children" and would presumably give Putin a heart attack -- although if you've seen the puppet sex in Team America, by comparison THIS looks like «Крокодил Гена»!

BREAKING NEWS Thursday, September 19, 2013 10:55 AM EDT

Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion

...“Some of the things in it really surprised me,” Father Martin said. “He seems even more of a free-thinker than I thought — creative, experimental, willing to live on the margins, push boundaries back a little bit.”...

Transgender teen crowned homecoming queen at O.C. high school - latimes.com

Вот это да. Необходимо мужество даже участвовать для таких как она... ой, знаешь... слово "мужество" как-то... неловко вышло.. но во всяком случае, я её поздравляю!

A little detail I just read in the Washington Blade (easily one of the "top five" LGBT newspapers in America) -- a five-person Russian delegation visiting the US to discuss planning for the Sochi Olympics will include an open lesbian named Эльвина Ювакаева, who is a co-president of the Федерации ЛГБТ-Спорта России (the other president is figure skater Константин Яблоцкий).

Apparently the decision to include her in the delegation was recently made by the US Embassy in Moscow -- undoubtedly as a political response to the propaganda law. However, Yuvakaeva was careful to avoid criticism of the Russian government -- instead stressing that her group was "officially registered" as an NGO in Russia:

Yuvakaeva said the Russian LGBT Sport Federation was founded in 2010 as a non-political organization with the purpose of promoting and facilitating sports among Russia’s LGBT community. Among other things, it serves as a representative of the Russian LGBT community on the board of the International Federation of Gay Games.

She said Russian authorities have not sought to revoke the group’s registration following the approval earlier this year by the Russian parliament of the gay propaganda law, which Russian officials have said is aimed at protecting minors from homosexuality.

According to Yuvakaeva, authorities consider the Russia LGBT Sport Federation to be in compliance with both the propaganda law and a separate law banning certain organizations from receiving money from foreign groups or governments on grounds that the Russian sports group is non-political.

“The only thing is we couldn’t invite minors to our events and we wouldn’t spread some information among minors about our events because it’s outlawed,” she said in discussing the impact of the gay propaganda law on her group.

I wonder if other gay activists inside and outside of Russia will accuse her of being "Putin's poodle" (which was said about Nikolai Alekseev). And I wonder whether her organization will get in trouble with the "foreign agent" law because the US State Department was directly involved in issuing the invitation. (In other words, I certainly would never claim that THIS is an инициатива снизу!)

On the other hand, I would emphasize that so far, this appears to have been covered only in the Gay Media. (And it seems that neither Yuvakaeva nor Yablotsky are major sports-celebrities in Russia.)

PS. Another equally (in)famous scene from Spartacus -- the aristocratic Roman general Crassus (Laurence Olivier) asks his slave Antoninus (Tony Curtis) "Do you prefer to eat snails or oysters?" But of course we know he's not REALLY talking about улитки and устрицы, ho-ho-ho!



Trivia: In 1960, this scene was far too suggestive for Hollywood's team of self-censors, and so it was cut out and not publicly screened for decades. When the film was restored in the 1990s, Olivier was already dead and the audio for this scene had been lost -- so they brought in none other than Anthony Hopkins to dub Olivier's lines! Listen to the "snails or oysters" part and you can easily imagine Hannibal Lecter saying it!