Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Originally Posted by Deborski

And immediately the insults begin. Can you begin any sentence with something other than an insult, when you disagree? And why insult me? Simply because I have an opposing view? I did not see you insulting or attacking the pedophile who was bragging about raping 13 year old girls...

This is why I do not care to discuss this subject on this forum. I get that you are angry about some myth about gay people "taking over your country" but I am not going to be fodder for you to attack.

Alexander Nevzorov is a distinguished journalist and war correspondent whom I had the great honor and privilege of working with in Leningrad many years ago. I am very encouraged to see that he is still speaking his mind and has not been shut down by the frothing-at-the-mouth religious right which wants to force everyone to believe exactly as they do. So naturally, you felt compelled to immediately denigrate his character and insult him too.

It's a pity that so many people on TV these days, in Russia and in America, are just loudmouthed shills for populist views. Nevzorov has integrity, and that is exemplified by his ability to stand firmly for the truth even when the majority disagree.

I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

Originally Posted by Basil77

I'm very sorry that you took my post as an insult towards you. I had nothing like this in mind. Sorry again. I just can't stand Nevzorov. I remember his trash TV programs about prostitution and such things which were broadcasted in prime-time (9 pm) back in 90s. He used nudity, description of "dirty" details and such things to rise ratings of his show. No self-respecting journalist would use such methods in my opinion, especially if he knew that half of country's teenagers and even smaller children are watching his show. His programms about politics and war were also all about "scandal", "shock" and so. After "crazy times" at our TV were over he lost his popularity and anyone can hardly remember him now.

Well, I was acquainted with Nevzorov in Leningrad. I did not work closely with him, and I did not see this series about prostitution which you are describing. I did see the expose he did about equestrian sports, and I was impressed with that because I was very involved with equestrian sports when I was a teenager and everything he said about it is true. People beat horses and treat them horribly, all for the sake of winning a gold medal.

We can agree to disagree regarding gar rights. I only ask that we treat each other respectfully. Once the insults start flying, it causes me anxiety and I will usually leave the conversation.

This is an excellent movie about Matthew Shepard, the gay man who was beaten, tortured and killed in Colorado several years ago. His story was a major turning point for the gay rights movement in the United States. In my younger years, I was homophobic (thanks to religious indoctrination) and as I grew older I remained ambivalent. But this story really changed my thinking on many levels. I realized that gay people are who they are, and beating them or persecuting will never change them. I fear that Russia will have a few Matthew Shepards of its own before attitudes in Russia change. But I do have faith that most Russians do not approve of violence or cruelty, and that eventually Russia's attitude towards gay people will change. It may be many years before this happens, but I believe that some day it will.

I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go even here, where gay people are gaining rights, because gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes even in our "land of the free." And I am always the first to say when I think America does wrong - such as in the case of our global military aggression. But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go...

1) Европа (и Америка, как часть Европы) хочет, чтобы мы были похожи на них. Но у Европы был свой долгий путь, а у нас свой, совсем другой.
В Европе было рабство (белые владели чёрными), а у нас нет.
В Европе долгое время в средние века убивали геев на законном основании, а у нас нет.
Теперь Европа комплексует по поводу своих грехов, пытается их компенсировать в своей голове запретом слова "чёрный", признанием "браков" и т.д. Но у нас не было этих грехов и поэтому нет этих комплексов. Поэтому нечего компенсировать в своей психике.

2) Если пигмеев отдать во власть мусульман, то они заставят пигмейских женщин кутаться в балахоны, а мужчин носить штаны. И будут думать при этом, что спасают пигмеев от грехов. На самом деле пигмеи ещё не знают тех грехов, которые уже овладели более "развитыми" мусульманами. Мусульмане кутают своих женщин, чтобы их не украли другие мужчины, чтобы показать свою власть над женщиной и т.д. Пегмеи ещё не могут прокормить несколько женщин, поэтому у них нет многожёнства. У них нет права собственности на женщину и нет похищения людей. У них нет порнографии, так как нет одежды. И так далее. То есть мусульмане будут заниматься бессмысленными вещами, предполагая что их мораль универсальна. Но мораль находится в равновесии с грехом. Каждый военный знает, что средства обороны развиваются вместе со средствами нападения. История развития человечества - это история развития греха и морали. Капитализм, например, научился использовать жажду наживы для развития общества. А у пигмеев ещё рабовладения наверное не было.

Короче, когда Запад думает, что у него самая сильная мораль, он невольно признаётся, что у него самый развитый институт греха. Я же утверждаю, что разные народы обладают своим опытом в области греха. Поэтому каждый народ вырабатывает свою мораль.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Европа (и Америка, как часть Европы) просто хочет, чтобы мы были похожи на них. Но у Европы был свой долгий путь, а у нас свой, совсем другой.
В Европе было рабство (белые владели чёрными), а у нас нет.
В Европе долгое время в средние века убивали геев на законном основании, а у нас нет.
Теперь Европа комплексует по поводу своих грехов, пытается их компенсировать в своей голове запретом слова "чёрный", признанием "браков" и т.д. Но у нас не было этих грехов и поэтому нет этих комплексов. Поэтому нечего компенсировать в своей психике.

You misunderstand. We don't want you to be just like us. It isn't about that at all.

Gay people are not only living in Europe and in the US. There are plenty of gay people living in Russia, too. Shutting them up, killing them, making laws against everything they are will not cause gay people to stop being born.

It's a pity you will not watch the Matthew Shepard story, or understand the movie. It's a story of a family, and how they had to face their own homophobia and ignorance when their son was brutally murdered.

To say that because Europe had slaves, but Russia didn't, is probably true (notwithstanding the Viking Russians who did, in fact, have slaves). But to say that because Europe and the US did some things wrong, does not mean that therefore gay rights is also wrong. You are conflating the issues.

Yes. Russia does have its own path. And there will undoubtedly be many Russian boys will will die because they are gay, and because hatred of them is tolerated. But those boys will also have parents, like Matthew Shepard had, who will grieve the deaths of their children. And those parents will come to see that it was not their children who were wrong, but the hatred that is wrong. And some day, perhaps many years from now, even Russia will change.

Originally Posted by Deborski

But to say that because Europe and the US did some things wrong, does not mean that therefore gay rights is also wrong. You are conflating the issues.

Я на этих примерах пытался показать, как формируется "коллективное бессознательное" на Западе. Этот механизм одинаков и в случае чёрных рабов, и в случае геев, и в случае евреев. Сначала Запад допускает многовековую несправедливость по отношению к ним, потом вдруг становится их защитником, используя эту тему во внешней политике для давления на всех окружающих.
Наше же общество так сильно не бросает из крайности в крайность. И такой степени лицемерия мы ещё не научились.

Вы же пытаетесь перевести разговор на уровень индивидуальной психологии. Фильм наверняка об этом: как конкретные люди борятся в себе сами с собой, уродуют свою психику и т.д. Мне эта проблема кажется не интересной, так как у нас другая церковь, другая традиция. На личном уровне для меня этой проблемы не существует.

Originally Posted by Deborski

This is an excellent movie about Matthew Shepard, the gay man who was beaten, tortured and killed in Colorado several years ago. His story was a major turning point for the gay rights movement in the United States. In my younger years, I was homophobic (thanks to religious indoctrination) and as I grew older I remained ambivalent. But this story really changed my thinking on many levels. I realized that gay people are who they are, and beating them or persecuting will never change them. I fear that Russia will have a few Matthew Shepards of its own before attitudes in Russia change. But I do have faith that most Russians do not approve of violence or cruelty, and that eventually Russia's attitude towards gay people will change. It may be many years before this happens, but I believe that some day it will.

I highly recommend this movie for anyone who wants to understand why America is so "tolerant" of gay people. We have a long way to go even here, where gay people are gaining rights, because gay men and women are still beaten and killed by religious homophobes even in our "land of the free." And I am always the first to say when I think America does wrong - such as in the case of our global military aggression. But gay rights, I believe, is one of the good things. One of the things which makes me proud to be American.

Deleted. L.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Deleted. L.

Юрка is banned for 7 days for trolling.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Юрка is banned for 7 days for trolling.

Unfortunately, I never saw that particular response of his, which I'm actually curious about. If its presence on this thread violates the forum rules, is there a way I could receive it via PM? Thanks!

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Unfortunately, I never saw that particular response of his, which I'm actually curious about. If its presence on this thread violates the forum rules, is there a way I could receive it via PM? Thanks!

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