Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Yet another extremely embarrasing conversation caught on tape and leaked. I wonder how this happens exactly. Is it Russia listening, or do they have inside moles taping their conversations and then leaking?

Anyway, nuking Eastern Ukraine, is this woman insane?
Plus it's interesting that they are such Ukrainian patriots and still speaking Russian, how does that add up?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Yet another extremely embarrasing conversation caught on tape and leaked. I wonder how this happens exactly. Is it Russia listening, or do they have inside moles taping their conversations and then leaking?

Anyway, nuking Eastern Ukraine, is this woman insane?
Plus it's interesting that they are such Ukrainian patriots and still speaking Russian, how does that add up?

The video is pretty obviously edited around the time she supposedly said

их расстреливать с ядерного оружия

Also I think the translation is incorrect - the man didn't say "what should we do with the 8 million Russians who stayed in Ukraine" he said "what should the 8 million Russians who stayed in Ukraine do" что теперь делать оставшимся восьми миллионам русских, которые остались на территории Украини

Originally Posted by Hanna

Plus it's interesting that they are such Ukrainian patriots and still speaking Russian, how does that add up?

I kinda support Paul in his opinion. Although I don't consider Ukrainian language (or dialect) particularly artificial, but its official, public version (which is spoken in news and official speeches) surely was modified over the last two decades to distance from Russian language even more.
Yet that's not the problem. The thing is that most of Ukrainian politicians grew up in mixed language environment and it's only natural for them to happen to be actually thinking in Russian. And in this case it is indeed uneasy to remember all those quirky Ukrainian words. Moreover, there are much evidence that even the "Right sector" nationalists are not very good in Ukrainian.

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В какой-то мере я поддерживаю Пашу в его мнении. Хотя я не считаю украинский язык (или диалект) именно искусственным, но его официальный, публичный вариант (на котором говорят в новостях и публичных выступлениях) определенно изменялся последние два десятилетия с целью еще больше отдалиться от русского языка.
И все же проблема не в этом. Дело в том, что большинство украинских политиков выросло в смешанной языковой среде, и для них вполне естественно на самом деле думать на русском языке. А в таком случае это и впрямь нелегко - вспоминать все эти хитрые украинские словечки.
Более того, есть немало примеров того, что даже националисты из "Правого сектора" не так уж сильны в украинском.
rZsH3wN9Lbo.jpg

Originally Posted by Hanna

Yet another extremely embarrasing conversation caught on tape and leaked. I wonder how this happens exactly. Is it Russia listening, or do they have inside moles taping their conversations and then leaking?

Anyway, nuking Eastern Ukraine, is this woman insane?
Plus it's interesting that they are such Ukrainian patriots and still speaking Russian, how does that add up?

Interesting. The conversation looks like the common BS by the shocked people. It consists of phrases that express nothing but strong emotions and obviously have nothing to do with real planning etc. Conversations like that obviously had many simple Ukrainians just after invasion. That is why I believe it is a fake pefrormance. The woman is a cold-blooded power-hungry b@@@ch, she does not ever think like that, but easily can make a public performance (playing a common simple-minded person) to raise up her nowadays low ratings. So I believe that the leakage is intended and is an internal PR action of Julia: she wants to show that she shares the emotions of the people.

As for Russian language in Ukraine, didn't I explain? It is more common than Ukrainian. As for "8 millions of Russians" JD already commented about a "petty" misinterpretation in translation. Keep in mind that former opposition, current government, the list of killed people in Maidan ("Heavenly Hundred") etc. all are full of ethnic not-so-Ukrainians. And Julia Timoshenko herself is also ethnic not-so-Ukrainian despite of her Ukrainian last name that she took from her husband.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

The woman is a cold-blooded power-hungry b@@@ch, she does not ever think like that, but easily can make a public performance (playing a common simple-minded person) to raise up her nowadays low ratings. So I believe that the leakage is intended and is an internal PR action of Julia: she wants to show that she shares the emotions of the people.

As for Russian language in Ukraine, didn't I explain? It is more common than Ukrainian. As for "8 millions of Russians" JD already commented about a "petty" misinterpretation in translation. Keep in mind that former opposition, current government, the list of killed people in Maidan ("Heavenly Hundred") etc. all are full of ethnic not-so-Ukrainians. And Julia Timoshenko herself is also ethnic not-so-Ukrainian despite of her Ukrainian last name that she took from her husband.

It-ogo, I just want to point out that Western media makes a VERY big thing out of Ukrainian language.
Essentially they would have the rest of Europe believing that the language that most people in Ukraine speak, is Ukrainian. This didn't tally with my experience, but I only visited two cities and was really beginning to question myself, sort of "maybe they WERE speaking Ukrainian and I just didn't notice (however I can definitely tell the difference).

So there is a big campaign of mis-information going on about this, as if Russian was forced on Ukraine and people are now happy to speak their own language.

The conversation was far too muddled and fast for me to hear much at all, I only understood snippets here and there. Without the translation I wouldn't have understood what they were talking about. So I didn't notice the editing, but if it everyone is certain, I trust you on this. Very sneaky to edit the tape!

Julia Timoshenko seems very unpleasant! I liked her at first, simply because she's a woman, and I thought the braid was a cool touch.... But I understand now she is a ruthless and corrupt business woman/oligarch who wants to manipulate Ukrainian politics for her own ends.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Yes, we have an objective opinion about Ukrainian dialect. According to the rules, Ukrainian dialect can't be considered as a language. If someone doesn't agree, it's their problem. I don't need to support somebody's political decision and call white black.

If they say they have their own language, then they do! I think you should respect that.
Just because you as a Russian can understand some of it, doesn't mean it's not a separate language.
The two languages are not even fully mutually understandable, you can't understand ALL Ukrainian, can you? Nor could you speak it, could you? It has sounds that Russian doesn't have, and some different letters, as well as words that are completely different. Even I know this!

As a Swedish person I can understand ALL Norwegian, and Norway used to be Swedish territory. I could even pretend to speak Norwegian if I wanted. But it would never occur to me to claim that Norwegian is not a separate language. They say it's a different language, they have their own spelling and some words that are separate.

Saying that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian and not a separate language seems to be deliberately provocative towards [some] Ukrainians, and it gives fuel to the anti Russian sentiment in Ukraine. Is that really helpful?

Anyway, nuking Eastern Ukraine, is this woman insane?

Hanna, you should get used to that all the Ukrainian politicians are insane in a varying degree. If they were normal, we wouldn't get this crazy situation.

Plus it's interesting that they are such Ukrainian patriots and still speaking Russian, how does that add up?

Modern Ukrainian "language" which was made out of the Ukrainian dialect is an artificial language. You are not a native Russian speaker so you hardly notice how they torture themselves speaking Ukrainian in public. They must look like true patriots, but nature takes its course. Of course, no one wants/needs to speak an artificial language in a private conversation.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

...Modern Ukrainian "language" which was made out of the Ukrainian dialect is an artificial language. You are not a native Russian speaker so you hardly notice how they torture themselves speaking Ukrainian in public. They must look like true patriots, but nature takes its course. Of course, no one wants/needs to speak an artificial language in a private conversation.

Says who? Fine. You can have your own special opinion about the Ukrainian language.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Says who? Fine. You can have your own special opinion about the Ukrainian language.

Yes, we have an objective opinion about Ukrainian dialect. According to the rules, Ukrainian dialect can't be considered as a language. If someone doesn't agree, it's their problem. I don't need to support somebody's political decision and call white black.

An interesting historical analogy. Featuring Hitler again, but the point is different.

In the run-up to World War II, the Brits, in their wisdom, guaranteed the Poles that they'd defend the Polish border from Hitler for them, which Britain didn't have the power to do. This had the effect (Pat wrote) of making the Polish government idiotically self-confident and cocky. So much so, that they refused to even discuss the German territory that had short-sightedly been awarded to Poland at Versailles. And that territory was old German territory, that had been Prussian territory before the German state even existed. The thought that Hitler, or any German leader, would let that state of affairs continue indefinitely was just plain stupid.

My own thinking is that if the Brits had kept their busybody noses out of it, the Poles might very well have been sensible and prudent enough to negotiate with Germany, and have ceded all or part of the disputed territory to Germany, and conceivably even have ended up with an alliance with Hitler to protect them from the Soviets, and the war just might have been avoided entirely.

Now we have a similar situation. When the Soviet Union fell apart, things were so disorganized that Ukraine, traditionally a part of Russia anyway, became an independent country with enormous numbers of Russians in it, most significantly in Crimea.

Now we have nutcases like McCain, and draft-dodger Joe Biden, running around squawking that we'll defend any number of places from Putin. The deep-thinking neocon philosophers, also mostly draft-dodgers, are ramping up the war talk as well. Could this make the governments of these countries as adamant and pig-headed as the Poles were decades ago? Human nature being what it is, that's quite likely.

Ex-Army - Libertarian Nationalist: Pat Buchanan on the Idiotic Ukraine Mess

As wise men say 'there are two schools of thought' about it. Some time ago there was ONE language. Then, because communications between men in different regions was not as easy as it is now, they started to separate. New words were borrowed from neighboring nations. Technically, even Polish is somewhat understandable to a Russian speaking person, same with the whole Slavic family of languages. The stems of the most ancient (core) words are the same. There are rural people in Ukraine who speak neither Ukrainian nor Russian but their mix.
Similarly, my opinion is that Swedish and Norwegian are technically two dialects of the same language as well.
In Europe you can find 'mixtures' of languages like in Netherlands where they speak a cocktail of English and German. Russian immigrants in USA speak a mind-blowing mixture of English and Russian.

And finally, that's no big secret that nearly all European languages derived from the same proto-language.
The question is - where to draw the line between one language and another?

If they say they have their own language, then they do! I think you should respect that.

I respect the truth. I don't need to respect an artificial language if even the "true patriots" don't respect it. Do you know why? Because they understand its nature, although they hardly admit it.

The two languages are not even fully mutually understandable, you can't understand ALL Ukrainian, can you? Nor could you speak it, could you? It has sounds that Russian doesn't have, and some different letters, as well as words that are completely different. Even I know this!

(Deleted.L.)There are a lot of dialects based on the proto-Russian grammar. Of course, I can't speak all of them. You may find some dialects in Russia and you will not understand them fully. But it doesn't make them "languages". If you want to separate a certain territory, you create a "language" based on the local dialect you selected and then you persuade the people that they are "special", so they must use this lovely "language". That's how it works.

As a Swedish person I can understand ALL Norwegian, and Norway used to be Swedish territory. I could even pretend to speak Norwegian if I wanted.

Yes, because for reasons of policy you (your society) were forced to consider it as a "language". Although it's not true. And now you (personally) repeat it, because "it's a rule with us". Also, it's not "politically correct" to think that they have no their own language. But such reasonings are far from science, it's just a liberal fundamentalism.

Saying that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian and not a separate language seems to be deliberately provocative towards [some] Ukrainians, and it gives fuel to the anti Russian sentiment in Ukraine. Is that really helpful?

Remember, the truth is always helpful (Deleted. L.).
Modern Ukrainian "language" is an artificial language. It was made as an opposition to modern Russian, so we have to consider it as an anti-Russian tool.

I vote for Paul to become Diplomat for Ukraine! Who's with meeeee?!?!?

Тема уводится в офф-топик и перешла к персональным нападкам. Закрывается на время.

Сегодня в Ровеньках Луганской области ожидали вторжения то ли бандеровцев, то ли войск , то ли еще кого.

Сегодня весь день в редакции не умолкает телефон. Звонят разные люди, сообщают «новости» - одну невероятнее другой:
http://rovenkismi.com.ua/news.php?id=5317

Жители Донбасса 'Мы будем сжигать бандеровцев'

Первый батальон Национальной гвардии поставил руководству ультиматум : Новости УНИАН

Ребята действуют в лучших традициях своих кумиров. Напомнило анекдот:

— Куме, ти куди це?
— Та в схрони.
— А навіщо?
— Та виб'ю двох-трьох москалів.
— Куме, а якщо вони тебе виб'ють?
— Мене?! А мене то за що?!

OMG! "Не иначе, как Дядя Фёдор кота притащил."

Originally Posted by bbc.co.uk/russian/international/2014/04/140411_yatsenuk_donetsk_visit.shtml

Премьер заявил, что Киев собирается полностью ликвидировать систему государственных областных администраций в регионах и делегировать большие полномочия в местное самоуправление. Это будет записано в готовящихся изменениях в конституцию страны, отметил Яценюк. Кроме этого, он обещал продвигать в Раде и закон о предоставлении регионам страны права на проведение местных референдумов.

Други, так у вас же премьер - предатель, танцующий под дудку Кремля! Или он тряпка и его просто достали кремлёвкие речёвки? Если премьер собирается ПРОДВИГАТЬ (!) закон о праве на местные референдумы, то что это значит? Значит, в теории, и реферндум в Крыму может быть легитимным?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Други, так у вас же премьер - предатель, танцующий под дудку Кремля! Или он тряпка и его просто достали кремлёвкие речёвки?

Если бы ты следил за событиями, то знал бы, что о ликвидации назначаемых губернаторов и расширении прав регионов кричал еще Майдан, а Яценюк обещал еще до Крыма. Так что ничего нового, кроме конкретики - референдумы. Референдумы - это хорошо. Потому что надо поставить точку в этой фигне, а результаты референдумов в отсутствие зеленых человечков г-на Пу сомнений не вызывают.

Если премьер собирается ПРОДВИГАТЬ (!) закон о праве на местные референдумы, то что это значит? Значит, в теории, и реферндум в Крыму может быть легитимным?

В Крыму сейчас легитимно то и только то, что считает таковым Кремль. И теперь так будет долго.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

В Крыму сейчас легитимно то и только то, что считает таковым Кремль. И теперь так будет долго.

Это ещё что. Представление только началось. Запасаемся попкорном:

Originally Posted by bbc.co.uk/russian/society/2014/04/140409_crimea_putin_city.shtml

"Я предложил, чтобы на центральной площади Симферополя поставили памятник Путину и переименовать город Симферополь в город Путин", - призвал с трибуны не представившийся представитель крымских татар.

Ща там будут делать потёмкинскую деревню, однозначно.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Это ещё что. Представление только началось. Запасаемся попкорном:


Ща там будут делать потёмкинскую деревню, однозначно.

Деревню сделать попытаются. Хватит ли настойчивости и средств - неизвестно. Переименовывать и памятник ставить не будут - Путину это не понравится.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

OMG! "Не иначе, как Дядя Фёдор кота притащил."

Други, так у вас же премьер - предатель, танцующий под дудку Кремля! Или он тряпка и его просто достали кремлёвкие речёвки? Если премьер собирается ПРОДВИГАТЬ (!) закон о праве на местные референдумы, то что это значит? Значит, в теории, и реферндум в Крыму может быть легитимным?

Премьер у них - андроид с дистанционным управлением, а пульт - в Вашингтоне. Переговоры, видимо, привели к какому-то результату, и с пульта поступили нужные команды. Я, в общем-то, чего-то такого и ждал. +думаю, будет ещё закреплённый в новой конституции нейтралитет Украины.