Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You asked for some new opinions and viewpoints and I provided you with one to show that there are different truths and one should partially accept each to get into situation. You could play with it and analyze the situation from that coordinates, but you preferred not to. Instead you prefer to critisize the Ukrainian govt, which is pointless because everybody see its stupidity and weakness etc.

OMG.. let's clarify my position on that matter, I was sure you got it. I think the statesmen (especially at their highest ranks) are criminals. Ukrainian government is not stupid, they are criminals and they commit criminal acts against people (of their population and of the foreign population) which they find needed to satisfy their own selfish needs. Russian government is exactly the same. EU governments are the same. The US government is the same. The Antarctic Penguins government is the same. Their weakness can only be measured against each other. Ukrainian government is way weaker than Russian government. Russian government is way weaker than EU and US governments combined.

Crimean government is also full of selfish criminals who are weaker than Ukrainian government. So, when Russian government commits criminal acts against Ukrainian government and Crimean government helps Russian government with that, I don't see ANY POINT WHATSOEVER to become 'more and more angry at the Russians'!!! So, Crimeans changed the title 'Ukraine' to title 'Russia'. Wow! Big deal! Now, Crimeans are bad bad people, Russians are bad bad people, and Ukrainians are good good people because they are victims of Russian people and Crimean people? That is nonsense! That is my point.

So, you offer me a 'different point of view' in which Russia is 'stomping with their military boots on your land'. Man.. Using your bombs analogy - how many shell pieces could you take out of YOUR building's walls? If none, then Russia does not do ANYTHING BAD to you personally, so you don't have a reason to be upset! You would still want to go places, maybe have beer with me, Ramil and Hanna somewhere near Yalta on the seashore. You probably don't want to take a storming rifle and Ramil take another storming rifle and go to the battlefield because you agree or disagree with the way some pony-tailed people behave, I guess. What makes you so upset with my point of view? You said that does not suit you and you offer your POV, which is ok by me. But, now you're blaming me for not taking your POV as a starting point. Well, that doesn't work well for me. I don't see why I should take any side in that conflict. Ukrainian government does not let you what you should be able to - go to the seashore and enjoy the Black Sea and the sunshine, oh well, what can we do? At least not to defend their criminal point of view.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, you offer me a 'different point of view' in which Russia is 'stomping with their military boots on your land'.

Nope. I offered you a 'different point of view' about revolution - it was a while ago, probably you forgot already.

As for "Russia stomping", it is different. It is a public position of my choice as the most worthy. You are not invited to share it. You see, one should support one's nation to be able to produce something of global value or just improve situation around no matter of criminals, rulers or whatever. Something good happens sometimes despite of criminals, no? Being a nation is an energy that can be put to good or bad. And I see and feel that nowadays Russian way of being a nation is strongly destructive to its neighbours and - in a long term - to themselves. I can't dictate a way to be a nation, but that is a disaster and I feel myself obliged to claim it in most provocative manner to remind that there should be rules not to break.

As for assault rifle, I can hardly be good enough with it for several medical reasons still I don't think it is so bad way to spend my otherwise worthless life. Just to remind of rules.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Nope. I offered you a 'different point of view' about revolution - it was a while ago, probably you forgot already.

I remember now. Something about believing in the spark which could set a fire and make the society a better world. I'm probably way too cynical to share that view however noble that might seem.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Being a nation is an energy that can be put to good or bad.

Yes, I got that too. You feel synergy when you connect with your nation. That's a good feeling, but the thing is that some people have a certain experience in life and they are disillusioned. I don't think you can blame them too.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

And I see and feel that nowadays Russian way of being a nation is strongly destructive to its neighbours and - in a long term - to themselves. I can't dictate a way to be a nation, but that is a disaster and I feel myself obliged to claim it in most provocative manner to remind that there should be rules not to break.

That would be way too cool had it been tried by the history and worked. Unfortunately, the history shows not once and not twice that the grandchildren could be going to fight and die for a country which formed by killing their grandparents and taking their land into the larger formation which would be considered the new Motherland from now on. And those who would disagree with that would be killed or enslaved. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

As for assault rifle, I can hardly be good enough with it for several medical reasons still I don't think it is so bad way to spend my otherwise worthless life. Just to remind of rules.

I'm pretty sure I hear sarcasm in your voice, because otherwise (as someone who spent some time with the assault rifle) I can assure you there's not a single thing in the world which is more useless and evil than that. And 'evil' in the meaning of 'destructive' (as opposed to 'good' meaning constructive or creative). And please don't ask me for details. Whatever creative you're doing in your life is good and whatever destructive is bad. Teaching somebody else the rules is good as long as it's creative. But teaching somebody else the rules with the assault rifle is bad as you will only teach them the hatred, which would lead to another destruction. That is one of my principles in life.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

That is one of my principles in life.

So finally you are not just asking question. You have some principles and don't go to overcome them. No?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

So finally you are not just asking question. You have some principles and don't go to overcome them. No?

Show me a person without any principles. I will try my best to steer clear of them...

Originally Posted by it-ogo

So finally you are not just asking question. You have some principles and don't go to overcome them. No?

Ok, ok, you got me. Do you really want my recipe for what Ukrainians should do under the circumstances? Ok, hear the peoples for the Great Crocodile will tell you exactly what to do with your lives blah-blah-blah..

First, Ukraine should recognize the annexation of Crimea. But, there's a catch - Crimea nationalized Ukrainian public property (stole that is, oh why? is the government really full of criminals?), so there are two legal things Ukraine should demand:

1. The independent estimate of the property nationalized, and
2. The independent estimate of the yearly losses to Ukraine (e.g. the excavation of natural gas deposits).

Then, once the monetary equivalent is established, Ukraine should demand contributions from Russia (and there would be plenty of room for negotiations on that). Then, if Russia does not comply, Ukraine (and other countries) have the full right according to the international law to issue seizures of Russian property worldwide as compensation.

At the same time, Ukraine should slice its army to about a third of what it is now. That would not compromise the country's security as the recent events clearly showed that Ukrainian defence forces are next to being useless furniture in case they are needed, but they eat a considerable amount of the budget pie on the regular basis. Instead, Ukraine should follow Israel's example: get free money from the US in order to purchase the old US-made weapon and only spend efforts on modernizing that. That way Ukraine's spendings would go to develop the internal IT and applied sciences market to improve on the control of the military vehicles (mainly for the Air Force). In 20 years, Ukrainian air force might become somewhat competitive with Russian air forces.

Somehow, I'm pretty sure Ukraine's initiative would be greeted with applause throughout the world.

That way Ukraine will kill two ducks in one shot:

1. Ukraine will stop its regular contribution to Crimean's budget, and
2. Ukraine will get hefty amounts which could be put in the pocket of Ukrainian politicians spent on improving Ukrainian infrastructure.

So, after hearing only one of the possible alternatives could you really support of what is happening instead?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, after hearing only one of the possible alternatives could you really support of what is happening instead?

Nope. I mainly agree to your analysis with some additions maybe. But Ukrainian society should survive the hysteria first and put it down in some way (providing that Mr. Poo will spend giant resources to keep it on the same level). Until that no politicians are able to make sane statements and actions and not lose the position. That is the downside of the notorious checks-and-balances machine that actually works in Ukraine even if in a specifis way.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

But Ukrainian society should survive the hysteria first and put it down in some way (providing that Mr. Poo will spend giant resources to keep it on the same level). Until that no politicians are able to make sane statements and actions and not lose the position.

Ok, so I think first we have agreement in principle that Ukraine has many legal options (above was just one possible, maybe not even close to be the best one). And the above scenario, however anti-Russian that might sound, might actually be very beneficial for Russia as well. Previously, the gas price agreements between Russia and Ukraine were unclear with the uncertain future. In the new situation, Moscow could just continue to pump the gas with the old prices, but now everybody will understand the fixed amounts and the purpose. So, as usual, that legal stuff could actually improve the relationship between Moscow and Kiev as opposed to what's happening today. And, like I said, the room for the price negotiation could also play well распил и откат in favour of the Russian and Ukrainian criminals in power political elites.

See? A transposition of the conflict from the domain of political ambitions into the domain of financial ambitions could play well for both sides as the transformations applied in the financial domain (when transposed back) could yield to the benefits in the political domain. The full effect of which is yet to be studied.

Just say 'no' to the assault rifle!