Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

th sunday times - charges for every article to read online. Even old ones.

BTW. If Franchetti doesn't lie in that report, i can say that there was no one respetively trained and experienced. NO ONE!

The actual paper copy is really nice - as thick as a book, with lots of magazines and things included. But the online version seems terrible.

But really, Ukrainians would have to kill several Western (as opposed to Russian) journalists before they admit that they are anything other than a friendly peace-keeping anti-terrorist squad.

I think something like 3 Russian media people were already killed in Ukraine by the way.

There ARE Western people who understand that the newspapers are not reporting truthfully. But unless they speak Russian or can sit glued to RT there is no source of alternative info.

Originally Posted by Hanna

No, no - I don't think that's necessary. It's readable. I was just surprised that Sunday times would publish something of that quality. Personally, I can never follow descriptions of battles anyway, so it's lost on me, at least.

The narrative for this has already been set in the West. Most people only take in the headlines of what's right under their noses. Here is what English speaking people, and Europeans now believe:

• Euromaidan were freedom fighters who overthrew a Moscow puppet dictator
• Russia invaded Crimea militarily against the will of many in the population, after a fake/rigged referendum.
• Everything bad that happened since then, particlularly in the East, is Russia's fault.
• The Eastern rebels are terrorists supported logistically from Moscow.
• Putin is doing this due to "Russian imperialism" and/or dreams about resurrecting the USSR.
• All this proves Russia is a threat to Europe and must be stopped from meddling in other countries.

We have at least two people participating in this thread, who believe exactly this.

Also: Ukraine is "old news" now - ISIS and Iraq is the latest story. Another country f-cked up by Western intervention.

I don't understand this rant. You are speaking for all English speakers and Europeans as to what they believe. You say most poeple only read certain headlines and don't read beyond that. Do you think that all people beyond a certain line drawn on the European continent have no ability to read and you know exactly what they are thinking?

Anyway who cares what some parties think; the general feeling in Ukraine is:
Maidan movement was a fight against corruption. The people who died there are mourned.
Russia took Crimea, but someday Crimea will be returned to Ukraine
Language is not really that important as most people speak both (although, and this is just my opinion, there's more emphasis on Ukrainian language compared to a few years ago, which is ironic since Yanokovich poked fun at it yet during this time more stuff was written in Ukrainian)
Russia was supporting rebels in the East (people even 200km from border say this)
The idea that there are fascists running around and disrupting the lives of ordinary people is a deliberate lie

Based on the above, it's not possible to align with Russia.

In the end, it doesn't matter what BBC, Fox, or RT says

Originally Posted by bytemare

Maidan movement was a fight against corruption. The people who died there are mourned.

Yes it was against corruption. Do you know who Poroshenko was in Yanukovich's govmnt? Minister of economy - Irony. or...
There one more question - what neo-nazism has to do with anti-corruption movement. (Deleted. L.) And these started long before january 2014.
But besides all these, the main point is - it's so freaking familiar!!!!! The copy of russia in 90s!!! Exactly the same schedule : Protest => Some die and become heroes => coup detat =>extreme corruption growth => extreme poverty growth => war

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Trolling. Вытерто. Л.

The problem is, of all the people out there, it's mainly Ukrainians and Russians who are involved in endless arguments about the counter-terrorist operation in Ukraine. I can see why the Ukrainians are --- it's their country after all. But what about you, Russian guys? You may not notice that, but you're acting like you really have a share in that conflict, while even the official position of your country is that you're just observers. So you ARE involved, or still not? Or, maybe, you just like arguing so much you just can't resist using every opportunity? That is just confusing...

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

this is the actual report in the Sunday Times.

Pinned to the ground by blizzard of bullets | The Sunday Times

My face is pressed so hard into the ground I can taste the dirt. I am wearing a brand new flak jacket and helmet, but I feel completely exposed.
Around me a fierce battle is raging between Ukrainian soldiers defending a border crossing with Russia and pro-Moscow separatists fighting to capture it. Dmitry Beliakov, a photographer for this paper, and I are caught in the middle.
Bullets whizz around us, cutting the air with a distinctive whistle and a metallic ping as they repeatedly hit an armoured personnel carrier (APC) a few yards away from us already riddled with holes

Thanks! I saw that before you deleted and I copied & pasted it. That was a very interesting article and it's something I've never seen in the other news medias. All the media ever wants to discuss is the politics, not the war. I don't think they want anyone to know what war is really all about.

Btw, I thought it-ogo is a him. Just so everyone knows, so am I.
Anyway, I think this whole crisis will end badly. I think the Ukrainian army will probably fall apart and start another revolution because I don't think those people in Kiev know how to run a country. Has Ukraine ever been stable for more than a few years without pro-Russian leadership?

Fine bytemare. So please link to an article in a mainstream English speaking newspaper or news site that tries to explain both sides of the story, or be nuanced about the events in Eastern Ukraine. Or can be neutral when reporting about Russia or Putin. I challenge you.
Meanwhile I can link to 100 that are about as nuanced as black wall.

How are people going to get both sides of the story, if only one is shown to them?
For people who only read English and don't make a major there is only one official narrative.

Alternatively; try arguing the point of view of the rebels, in an English speaking forum and see how far you get before you are either banned or turn the whole forum against you, and get accused of being a Russian psy-ops agent. They hardly have a balanced or deep understanding about it - but no lack of prejudiced comments and opinions!

The debate will quickly move on from Ukraine to Stalin, Pussy riot, homosexuals, communism, Khodorkovsky, Litvinovsky, gulags..... etc! No stereotyping :irony: ..(if you ask me, they've been brainwashed on the matter of Russia and can't think rationally about anything relating to Russia).

People like 14Russian is a fairly average representation of what the average continental European person believes about what's going on in Ukraine, or Russia in general and its history.

If you take UHox, not only does he read basic Russian and has gone to great lengths to inform himself. He is definitely not a representation of regular Americans, quite the opposite. The average person skims through the headlines and a few paragraphs of an article at best. Or watch the 5 minute slot about this on some news channel.

The anti Russia stance at the moment in Europe is particularly bad in the UK, Scandinavia and parts of Eastern Europe. Plus of course the USA. Southern Europe, I think is less biased and more open minded.

But I think elsewhere in the world: Africa, Asia, Middle East South America... Russia is actually winning A LOT of sympathy and respect recently. I came across a few articles in Asian and African papers - they are less prejudiced and make judgement based on facts not on propaganda, stereotypes or wishful thinking.

And remember: Russia did not start the series of events in Ukraine, AT all. It's reacted to it: Somewhat opportunistic in the case of Crimea, but not against the wishes of the locals there. And it has behaved a bit ambigously and mysteriously in relation to Eastern Ukraine - but it's right in Russia's backyard, and many of the people involved are more or less Russians. So it's virtually impossible for Russia to stay completely detached.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Fine bytemare. So please link to an article in a mainstream English speaking newspaper or news site that tries to explain both sides of the story, or be nuanced about the events in Eastern Ukraine. Or can be neutral when reporting about Russia or Putin. I challenge you.
Meanwhile I can link to 100 that are about as nuanced as black wall.

How are people going to get both sides of the story, if only one is shown to them?
For people who only read English and don't make a major there is only one official narrative.

Alternatively; try arguing the point of view of the rebels, in an English speaking forum and see how far you get before you are either banned or turn the whole forum against you, and get accused of being a Russian psy-ops agent. They hardly have a balanced or deep understanding about it - but no lack of prejudiced comments and opinions!

The debate will quickly move on from Ukraine to Stalin, Pussy riot, homosexuals, communism, Khodorkovsky, Litvinovsky, gulags..... etc! No stereotyping :irony: ..(if you ask me, they've been brainwashed on the matter of Russia and can't think rationally about anything relating to Russia).

People like 14Russian is a fairly average representation of what the average continental European person believes about what's going on in Ukraine, or Russia in general and its history.

If you take UHox, not only does he read basic Russian and has gone to great lengths to inform himself. He is definitely not a representation of regular Americans, quite the opposite. The average person skims through the headlines and a few paragraphs of an article at best. Or watch the 5 minute slot about this on some news channel.

The anti Russia stance at the moment in Europe is particularly bad in the UK, Scandinavia and parts of Eastern Europe. Plus of course the USA. Southern Europe, I think is less biased and more open minded.

But I think elsewhere in the world: Africa, Asia, Middle East South America... Russia is actually winning A LOT of sympathy and respect recently. I came across a few articles in Asian and African papers - they are less prejudiced and make judgement based on facts not on propaganda, stereotypes or wishful thinking.

And remember: Russia did not start the series of events in Ukraine, AT all. It's reacted to it: Somewhat opportunistic in the case of Crimea, but not against the wishes of the locals there. And it has behaved a bit ambigously and mysteriously in relation to Eastern Ukraine - but it's right in Russia's backyard, and many of the people involved are more or less Russians. So it's virtually impossible for Russia to stay completely detached.

Why do you want me to link to English mainstream articles? This crisis has been going on for months, actually with origins going back several years. In any language it would take an encyclopaedia to explain all the nuances. You again generalize all people west of an imaginary line in Europe as not being able to read full articles or search for news on their own that interests them.

So what if there's a bias in some places against Russia? In Russia there is some recent bias against parts of Europe and the USA. Who cares? My post wasn't concerned with that though, my post was a reaction to you writing that people in the west are unable or unwilling to read full news articles. I also just wanted to point out that your generalizations about what English speaking people doesn''t really make any difference, true or not. On this topic, it's about Ukraine, and what I posted above seems to represent the general thought there (but there are deviations, like "what do we need the European Union for?") . So while Russia might be gaining sympathy in some parts of the world (I have no evidence of this, I just read it from your post), quite the opposite, unfortunately, is happening in Ukraine.

А мне интересно, что там за грязные лозунги были.

Thanks for the correction Aha! Now I get it, with his name....

Well, I am a bit of a chocoholic, so I always notice what the local chocolate brand is if I travel somewhere. It looks very nice, but I didn't like the taste.. I have seen it here in the UK, in a Polish store, lol. I guess Poles like it then.

Alex_krsk, people get banned for such posts here, especially with pro-Russian point of view, I would suggest to calm down a bit.

Originally Posted by bytemare

Why do you want me to link to English mainstream articles? This crisis has been going on for months, actually with origins going back several years. In any language it would take an encyclopaedia to explain all the nuances. You again generalize all people west of an imaginary line in Europe as not being able to read full articles or search for news on their own that interests them.

Because Western leaders require public approval when they stage violent coups against legitimate governments. Without public approval, they are committing political suicide.
Let's level-up to reality: Public approval = most people in a Western nation support their leaders' plans. To get that much approval, they have to control the media.
I have lots of time to learn Russian and explore the reality of what's really happening. But most Americans don't. I've read that the majority of Americans have to deal with multiple jobs, their families, taxes, daily chores, etc etc. And they want some free-time to chill or have fun. That leaves very little time for reading or watching the media. But hey, if you've read one American media source then you already know what every other American media source is saying.

Originally Posted by bytemare

So what if there's a bias in some places against Russia? In Russia there is some recent bias against parts of Europe and the USA. Who cares? My post wasn't concerned with that though, my post was a reaction to you writing that people in the west are unable or unwilling to read full news articles. I also just wanted to point out that your generalizations about what English speaking people doesn''t really make any difference, true or not. On this topic, it's about Ukraine, and what I posted above seems to represent the general thought there (but there are deviations, like "what do we need the European Union for?") . So while Russia might be gaining sympathy in some parts of the world (I have no evidence of this, I just read it from your post), quite the opposite, unfortunately, is happening in Ukraine.

That's a dangerous statement. It could also be read, "So what if there's a bias in some places against Ukraine?". That bias supports political decisions that have invaded and destroyed other nations.
And btw, any recent Russian bias towards parts of Europe and the USA is understandable, considering the massive Western bias towards Russia. I'm only surprised that the Russian bias didn't start a lot sooner than it did.
Trust me, the majority of people in the US aren't extremely intelligent, aren't willing to take time out to explore foreign affairs, and are the same majority that supported illegal and questionable wars.
That's why Hanna's generalizations are very important. The West couldn't make the decisions and policies it makes without them.
Never underestimate the power of people or the power of governments to control their opinions. Suggested reading, Sun Tzu, The Art of War:
Sonshi.com | Original Sun Tzu's Art of War translation (not Giles) It's a lot about the power of disinformation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

....If you take UHox, not only does he read basic Russian and has gone to great lengths to inform himself. He is definitely not a representation of regular Americans, quite the opposite. The average person skims through the headlines and a few paragraphs of an article at best. Or watch the 5 minute slot about this on some news channel.

Thanks. Btw, I'm getting very proficient at typing Russian too on my English keyboard. And you're definitely correct. Most Americans believe anything the American media tells them and they don't really care. But the American media is only there to support politicians and oligarchs and thinking out of the box is not considered politically correct in the US. Atm, it would be very easy for American politicians to get the support they needed to start saturation bombings of Germany or France. It's basically anything that the politicians and the oligarchs want. All they need is their media and a believable story-line.

Originally Posted by Hanna

And remember: Russia did not start the series of events in Ukraine, AT all. It's reacted to it: Somewhat opportunistic in the case of Crimea, but not against the wishes of the locals there. And it has behaved a bit ambigously and mysteriously in relation to Eastern Ukraine - but it's right in Russia's backyard, and many of the people involved are more or less Russians. So it's virtually impossible for Russia to stay completely detached.

When Ukraine rose up against Russia, Crimea became a serious National security threat to the SW. It's very fortunate that the Crimean people supported the annexation. Also, Russia will never give up Crimea. If Ukraine wants it back, it will have to fight the Russian military and that wouldn't end well for Ukraine or Europe.
About SE Ukraine. I think what President Putin is trying to avoid is another Yugoslavia. The US is already involved militarily and the government obviously supports geonocides. So does Western Ukraine.

And about Roshen chocolates. They were added to our boycott list when Poroshenko deployed the military against it's own people. There's just too many other amazing chocolatiers out there to ever consider buying it again. Btw, I love Belgian chocolate, especially with hazelnuts!

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

They were added to our boycott list when Poroshenko deployed the military against it's own people.

Who REALLY are you?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Who REALLY are you?

I'm a frustrated American 16 yo with an extremely high IQ and a strong Christian conscience. I'm all over alternative rock, metal, shoegaze, post punk, skramz, club, and hardstyle music - you may have noticed that my avatar has everything to do with Wasted Penguinz. I'm also very much into rollerblades, tech, experimental styles (for example, Pinn Panelle), robotics, aeronautics, gaming, hockey, and cooking. I'm 5'3", weigh about 100 lbs, my natural hair color is strawberry blonde, and I have green eyes. Oh, and I'm an active swimmer and diver...
Your turn. Who REALLY are you?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I'm a frustrated American 16 yo with an extremely high IQ and a strong Christian conscience. I'm all over alternative rock, metal, shoegaze, post punk, skramz, club, and hardstyle music - you may have noticed that my avatar has everything to do with Wasted Penguinz. I'm also very much into rollerblades, tech, experimental styles (for example, Pinn Panelle), robotics, aeronautics, gaming, hockey, and cooking. I'm 5'3", weigh about 100 lbs, my natural hair color is strawberry blonde, and I have green eyes. Oh, and I'm an active swimmer and diver...
Your turn. Who REALLY are you?

I'm a not-so-much-frustrated-yet earth resident, 25 y.o. with a high enough IQ and a liberal conscience, though Christianity is my native religion too. I'm into different sorts of metal, and hard rock too. My majors are programming, both online/offline gaming (FPS mostly), and quite often --- useless web surfing like this. =)) My activities mostly imply the indoor way of life, though I also like and do swimming and bike riding. I'm 5'8'', weigh about 150 lbs, my natural hair color is black, my eyes are blue. Oh, and I use the pronoun "my" when talking about myself, not "our". =))

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I'm a not-so-much-frustrated-yet earth resident, 25 y.o. with a high enough IQ and a liberal conscience, though Christianity is my native religion too. I'm into different sorts of metal, and hard rock too. My majors are programming, both online/offline gaming (FPS mostly), and quite often --- useless web surfing like this. =)) My activities mostly imply the indoor way of life, though I also like and do swimming and bike riding. I'm 5'8'', weigh about 150 lbs, my natural hair color is black, my eyes are blue. Oh, and I use the pronoun "my" when talking about myself, not "our". =))

Cool. 25 yo isn't that old so basically we're just 2 young people with different ideas that don't get too personal about our opinions. I mean, discussing politics is new so it's very interesting but no way it trumps checking out new bands or new rollerblade tricks or even trips to the water parks. And yeah, I noticed that a lot of 21+ people are all over hard rock or classic rock but I like hearing new stuff (like the new Of Mice and Men album, totally does pwn, btw!).
Anyway, when I said "our boycott list", I meant me and my family's. My parents are boycotting Nestle too. I would never call myself "our", lol!
Btw, since you like metal, check out Of Mice and Men, Bones Exposed. Highly recommended. Highly evolved.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Btw, since you like metal, check out Of Mice and Men, Bones Exposed. Highly recommended. Highly evolved.

That thing is pretty cool, such a melodic thrash core, kinda reminds me of how I used to listen to Slipknot everyday as a student, lol ; but here every part seems to be much more intense, both the thrash core and melodic solo; the music vid rocks, btw --- looks just like my 1000th date in the town xDDD

Well anyone young would be wise to bear in mind that the average age among the Russian fully English speaking participants here, is a lot higher than both Eric and UHox.

Many of the people here have personally lived through Soviet socialism, perestroika, the wild and destructive 90s in Russia, and the modern era with Putin.

They are people who managed to learn a quite different foreign language to full fluency either because of hard studies or due to moving country - which in itself is an experience that teaches a person a lot.

So in light of what I that, it's well worth listening carefully to what people like Alex, Lampada, SergeMak, Basil77, Crocodile (although he's taking a vacation from the forum), diogen(?), Iodka(?) and many others have to say (there are others, I think, but i am less sure of their age ranges, or they are less frequent participants).

They don't represent one unanimous viewpoint, but a spectrum, hence giving a broad but trustworthy source of information.

You don't have to agree with everything they say, but you should certainly respect that they are likely to have a much more relevant and well-founded view than somebody who doesn't live in the region, isn't a native Russian speaker and is too young to have a broad and mature perspective on the political, economic and social changes that Russia and the other USSR countries went through!

So take the opportunity to learn from people who had some very unique and interesting experiences and have been around on this planet a while longer than yourselves, instead of being prejudiced and hostile. If you do not agree with somebody, try to understand what causes that person to have a different viewpoint.

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

having to emphasize an 'extremely high IQ' more often than not points to the opposite being true ...and if not then at least to a lacking level of maturity

Originally Posted by Eric C.

That thing is pretty cool, such a melodic thrash core, kinda reminds me of how I used to listen to Slipknot everyday as a student, lol ; but here every part seems to be much more intense, both the thrash core and melodic solo; the music vid rocks, btw --- looks just like my 1000th date in the town xDDD

Thrash metal FTW! And yeah, their style's a lot like The Devil Wears Prada, The World Alive, or maybe even Attack Attack (well, without the pop elements mixed in). There's so many cool bands out there. I hear a lot about Slipknot at the music forums and total props for that band. I really need to check them out more. Lol @ the 1000th date but yeah, that vid pwns too.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well anyone young would be wise to bear in mind that the average age among the Russian fully English speaking participants here, is a lot higher than both Eric and UHox.
Many of the people here have personally lived through Soviet socialism, perestroika, the wild and destructive 90s in Russia, and the modern era with Putin.
They are people who managed to learn a quite different foreign language to full fluency either because of hard studies or due to moving country - which in itself is an experience that teaches a person a lot.
So in light of what I that, it's well worth listening carefully to what people like Alex, Lampada, SergeMak, Basil77, Crocodile (although he's taking a vacation from the forum), diogen(?), Iodka(?) and many others have to say (there are others, I think, but i am less sure of their age ranges, or they are less frequent participants).
They don't represent one unanimous viewpoint, but a spectrum, hence giving a broad but trustworthy source of information.
You don't have to agree with everything they say, but you should certainly respect that they are likely to have a much more relevant and well-founded view than somebody who doesn't live in the region, isn't a native Russian speaker and is too young to have a broad and mature perspective on the political, economic and social changes that Russia and the other USSR countries went through!
So take the opportunity to learn from people who had some very unique and interesting experiences and have been around on this planet a while longer than yourselves, instead of being prejudiced and hostile. If you do not agree with somebody, try to understand what causes that person to have a different viewpoint.

Yeah, that's why we have the 89er's day parade every year - to commemorate and learn about the Oklahoma land rush in 1889 (our State's only 125 years old). But we don't have a Perestroika day parade so this is the best place to learn about that. But don't forget, we weren't even alive when all that happened so it's easier for older people to discuss - We have to learn the history first before we can even post.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

having to emphasize an 'extremely high IQ' more often than not points to the opposite being true ...and if not then at least to a lacking level of maturity

It's true but it was only a defensive statement. And I really hope you don't believe that learning curves are more important than who somebody is. I think me and Eric just proved that they aren't.
And you do know that a lot of important scientific discoveries were made by people with average IQ's, right? So no, it's really not an epic issue.

@ UhOh - ok, fair enough...