Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

Originally Posted by Eric C.

The problem is, of all the people out there, it's mainly Ukrainians and Russians who are involved in endless arguments about the counter-terrorist operation in Ukraine. I can see why the Ukrainians are --- it's their country after all. But what about you, Russian guys? You may not notice that, but you're acting like you really have a share in that conflict, while even the official position of your country is that you're just observers. So you ARE involved, or still not? Or, maybe, you just like arguing so much you just can't resist using every opportunity? That is just confusing...

I think I could answer that rather easily.
Most of Ukrainians are Slavs, they also were involved with Russia economically and culturally for many decades and even centuries, until collapse of the USSR. Many Ukrainians speak Russian in every day life.
My mother was born in Central part of Ukraine, West from Kiev and has lived there for 20 years, so she is Ukrainian by blood but Russian by citizenship.
My uncle holds dual citizenship (Russian/Ukrainian).
I have two cousins in Crimea.
To me Ukrainians are no different than my mother or my uncle or my cousins.
Many Russians have relatives in Ukraine as well, I suspect they have similar thoughts.
If you have a good look on Russians and Ukrainians - we are but ONE nation, separated by political games.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

But what about you, Russian guys? You may not notice that, but you're acting like you really have a share in that conflict, while even the official position of your country is that you're just observers. So you ARE involved, or still not? Or, maybe, you just like arguing so much you just can't resist using every opportunity? That is just confusing...

The thread about Russophobia might be the best place for your insinuations and accusations regarding the possible quarrelsomeness of Russians. One new fault of them, in a long line of accusations coming from you.

And speaking about "confusing"; it's quite "confusing" that you have been a member of this forum for at least two years, AND speak Russian, yet you pretend to be unaware of Russia's ties with Ukraine, and its interests there. That's simply not credible ignorance coming from you.
What were the real motives for the question, I wonder?

So the latest fault of Russians according to you, are that they like to quarrel for the sake of it?

I'm still waiting to hear you say anything remotely positive about Russia or Russian people, two years after you joined the forum.

The insults, accusations and insinuations are clocking up on a weekly basis though, which begs the question: Why on earth participate in a forum full of such all-round awful people, by your own admission?
That's what I find "confusing".

Originally Posted by Hanna

The thread about Russophobia might be the best place for your insinuations and accusations regarding the possible quarrelsomeness of Russians. One new fault of them, in a long line of accusations coming from you.

And speaking about "confusing"; it's quite "confusing" that you have been a member of this forum for at least two years, AND speak Russian, yet you pretend to be unaware of Russia's ties with Ukraine, and its interests there. That's simply not credible ignorance coming from you.
What were the real motives for the question, I wonder?

So the latest fault of Russians according to you, are that they like to quarrel for the sake of it?

I'm still waiting to hear you say anything remotely positive about Russia or Russian people, two years after you joined the forum.

The insults, accusations and insinuations are clocking up on a weekly basis though, which begs the question: Why on earth participate in a forum full of such all-round awful people, by your own admission?
That's what I find "confusing".

If I were to assume who I would get my words twisted by, I would in no way be mistaken =)) Who else?

I said no word about the quarrelsomeness of anyone, I just presumed some guys might just like arguing, without even having to quarrel. The transition you made could not be made by mistake, it was a deliberate act of word twisting.

And what I really meant was, under no circumstances should the eastern Ukrainian operation be a war between Ukraine and Russia, right? (I think the majority of people on both sides will say yes); but by the numerous arguments about that on the web, one could say it is...

Originally Posted by hddscan

I think I could answer that rather easily.
Most of Ukrainians are Slavs, they also were involved with Russia economically and culturally for many decades and even centuries, until collapse of the USSR. Many Ukrainians speak Russian in every day life.
My mother was born in Central part of Ukraine, West from Kiev and has lived there for 20 years, so she is Ukrainian by blood but Russian by citizenship.
My uncle holds dual citizenship (Russian/Ukrainian).
I have two cousins in Crimea.
To me Ukrainians are no different than my mother or my uncle or my cousins.
Many Russians have relatives in Ukraine as well, I suspect they have similar thoughts.
If you have a good look on Russians and Ukrainians - we are but ONE nation, separated by political games.

I hope they become two friendly nations some day. But two nations can't be "one".

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I hope they become two friendly nations some day. But two nations can't be "one".

A nice example of ignorance. Go learn the basics All the way down to how and where Russia descends from?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I hope they become two friendly nations some day. But two nations can't be "one".

And that's what you believe
But I was answering your question about what Russians believe, I hope you got the picture.

Originally Posted by iCake

A nice example of ignorance. Go learn the basics All the way down to how and where Russia descends from?

I do know history. Russia chose its own way at the end of the medieval ages, and so did the current Ukrainian lands. You can't just go all the way down and restore what was 1000 years ago. If you think you can, fine --- how about making Ulan Bator your capital based on your confederation with the Mongols in the 13-14th centuries?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

how about making Ulan Bator your capital based on your confederation with the Mongols in the 13-14th centuries?

You know what you're doing right? Comparing an ass with a finger And you're the one who accused others of word twisting. I don't see how your "притягивание за уши" is better

And you do know that the Ukraine was a part of the Russian empire, don't you? Maybe, you just forgot this but I will remind you that there was no such state as Ukraine before the fall of the USSR?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

But two nations can't be "one".

Maybe. But you forgot that people in the East Ukraine and people in Russia ARE one nation (Russians) at least because those regions have always been Russian inhabited by Russian people, and only abt. 100 years ago were included in the territory of Ukraine, and it was just formal for them since it was one country anyway (USSR). Most people in the East are culturally, mentally, and ethnically Russians, and they ARE one nation with us who live in Russia.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

If I were to assume who I would get my words twisted by, I would in no way be mistaken =)) Who else?

I said no word about the quarrelsomeness of anyone, I just presumed some guys might just like arguing, without even having to quarrel. The transition you made could not be made by mistake, it was a deliberate act of word twisting.

And what I really meant was, under no circumstances should the eastern Ukrainian operation be a war between Ukraine and Russia, right? (I think the majority of people on both sides will say yes); but by the numerous arguments about that on the web, one could say it is...

This would have been a good opportunity for you to attempt to prove me wrong by denying that that you dislike Russians, and, for example saying that you appreciate Russian culture, people, the nation, the food, the literature -- anything! But you can't, can you?

Or prove that you cared enough to learn the absolute basics of Russian history, such as the fact that it has a common history with Ukraine, going back at least 1000 years. Anyone who took history in a European school would be aware of that. Else, it's one of the first things that's mentioned in any encyclopedia article on Russian history. Additionally, almost every major European country has been fighting with Russia in, or over, Ukraine at some point or another. That's certainly part of European history as taught in schools across the continent.

To know Russian and not be aware of this, doesn't add up.

It would be very difficult to think of Ukraine as being anything but Russian. The capital of Rus was moved to Kiev by Prince Oleg of Novgorod (around 862) where Vladimir the Great started the baptisms of Kievan-Rus and established ties (mostly due to his marriage to the Byzantine Princess, Anna) with Byzantium where Russian laws were ceated and the Slavonic and Cyrillic alphabets were invented. And even if all that happened in the Middle Ages, you can see what Russia was from 1533-1894.
In 1533, despite the Mongol invasions and the Lithuanians, the Russian border was still near Kiev and the NE borderlands ("Ukraine") were part of Russia (including Kharkiv). Poland and Lithuania were controlling the rest of the borderlands at that time.
Between 1533 and 1689, Russia expanded till Kiev was on it's border. And between 1689 and 1801, even the Western borderlands became part of the Russian Empire.
So my question is what is a Ukrainian? Are they the people that Prince Oleg of Novgorod conquered? But even if they are then how could somebody prove they are a Ukrainian and not a Russian? I mean mixed marriages do happen.

Originally Posted by Hanna

This would have been a good opportunity for you to attempt prove me wrong by denying that that you dislike Russians, and, for example saying that you appreciate Russian culture, people, the nation, the food -- anything! Or prove that you cared enough to learn the absolute basics of Russian history, such as the fact that it has a common history with Ukraine, going back at least 1000 years. But alas, no. What a surprise.

How about the absolute basics of the Russian language? Я могу продолжить на русском и сказать, что меряться здесь тем, у кого больше связей с русской культурой и специфических знаний, которые и только которые, по мнению некоторых, дают право находиться на этом форуме, глупо и неуместно. А вы? =))

Originally Posted by Eric C.

How about the absolute basics of the Russian language? Я могу продолжить на русском и сказать, что меряться здесь тем, у кого больше связей с русской культурой и специфических знаний, которые и только которые, по мнению некоторых, дают право находиться на этом форуме, глупо и неуместно. А вы? =))

Again you are not denying it.
You haven't got a single nice thing to say about Russia, and for whatever reason you don't know, or pretend not to know the most basic facts of Russian history.

Yet, I have to congratulate you on your excellent Russian; it seems you do not need to participate here to improve your Russian language skills, at least.
Your English is also good enough that you don't need the help that this forum could offer. Which brings me back to the question from my earlier post.

The "mystery man" act is both tiresome and silly. It undermines your credibility and reflects badly on you however you turn it. Either way, you appear like a person with a negative agenda.

Eric also appreciates epic music and when he says that Ukraine and Russia are two different countries, he's right.
President Putin said, "Only God knows why Crimea was ever given to Ukraine.". He also said the same thing about NovoRossiya. But he's wrong.
The Kremlin knows why. Kievan-Rus is where Belarus, Russia, and the borderlands were born. And it's really sad that the birthplace of Russia was neglected but it was. So now Russia and it's birthplace are 2 sovereign nations. That's why President Putin can't interfere militarily without creating an International issue. I mean, "Only God knows why..." isn't a good explanation for giving up the birthplace of a nation.
I think Ukraine will have to split now but until it does, it's still only Ukraine and I hope the new cease-fire works.
Ukraine agrees to second cease-fire as fighting worsens

Also don't forget, there's a lot of people in the US that are always critisizing the US but they're still citizens so they belong here. There's a lot I like about my country but that's not true for everyone.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

when he says that Ukraine and Russia are two different countries, he's right.

He says they are two different *nations*. This is not quite right.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Eric also appreciates epic music and when he says that Ukraine and Russia are two different countries, he's right.
President Putin said, "Only God knows why Crimea was ever given to Ukraine.". He also said the same thing about NovoRossiya. But he's wrong.
The Kremlin knows why. Kievan-Rus is where Belarus, Russia, and the borderlands were born. And it's really sad that the birthplace of Russia was neglected but it was. So now Russia and it's birthplace are 2 sovereign nations. That's why President Putin can't interfere militarily without creating an International issue. I mean, "Only God knows why..." isn't a good explanation for giving up the birthplace of a nation.
I

You strangely jump from Kievan-Rus to 21st century forgetting about Russian Empire and the USSR all together.
Ukraine is only independent for 23 years, before that were no Ukraine as a state.
Misunderstanding between the West and the East of Ukraine(excluding Crimea) however was not born in 21st century, neither it was created during USSR times. It goes back to Russian Empire times.
And "thanks" to modern politics of external influencers those misunderstandings were blown up to enormous hatred.

The US, the EU and Russia are all guilty of creating that hatred.
However when Russia protects its national security, the EU protects its economical projects and the US cherishes its goal of political and economical hegemony.
And Ukrainians are deliberately and methodically torn apart based on those misunderstandings that were created during Russian Empire times.

Originally Posted by lodka

He says they are two different *nations*. This is not quite right.

Ukraine and Russia are both Slavic and before the breakup of the USSR, Ukraine was just part of Russia. But after the breakup, Ukraine became a separate nation with it's own President and it's own Constitution. The Russian leaders should have understood the consequences for letting that happen. Well, now they do.

Originally Posted by hddscan

You strangely jump from Kievan-Rus to 21st century forgetting about Russian Empire and the USSR all together.
Ukraine is only independent for 23 years, before that were no Ukraine as a state.
Misunderstanding between the West and the East of Ukraine(excluding Crimea) however was not born in 21st century, neither it was created during USSR times. It goes back to Russian Empire times.
And "thanks" to modern politics of external influencers those misunderstandings were blown up to enormous hatred.

The US, the EU and Russia are all guilty of creating that hatred.
However when Russia protects its national security, the EU protects its economical projects and the US cherishes its goal of political and economical hegemony.
And Ukrainians are deliberately and methodically torn apart based on those misunderstandings that were created during Russian Empire times.

That's because my knowledge about the Russian Empire and the USSR is still kind of limited. I have studied a few of the Tsars and the October Revolution but there's still a lot missing. There's a lot more I need to study.
And yeah, I do know that Ukraine didn't even exist (except as part of the USSR) till around 1991. The ethnic Ukrainians did try to build a State several times during the October Revolution but they all fell apart and they never covered a huge part of Ukraine.
I also studied the Polish and Lithuanian interventions during the time of the Tsars. There was a lot of hostility then between ethnic Ukrainians and Russians. And yeah, the US and the EU are using that hostility for a Ukrainian land grab.
That won't end well since the US and the EU will do the same things to Ukraine that they did to Russia from 1991-1999. That should be enough to make the Ukrainians US/EU-hostile. Ukraine has stepped into a serious trap.

But Russia can't just say, "Only God knows why..." because they have to share the responsibility for what happened. They knew Ukraine was unstable and that Ukrainians didn't have any experience running a country. So they shouldn't have let it become a separate country. Maybe an autonomous region, but definitely not a country. Especially considering how Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazis during WW2.
I mean if Russia could really say that Ukraine and Russia was one nation then the US/EU couldn't have started a violent coup - or at least Russia could have intervened militarily. Russia should have understood that the West wouldn't see it as one nation.
That's why Russia didn't send any troops or military equipment to Ukraine and why Russia isn't flying warplanes over the Donbass to create a no-fly zone.
It was just a huge mistake to let Ukraine become a separate nation - with it's own President - after the USSR break-up.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

But after the breakup, Ukraine became a separate nation with it's own President and it's own Constitution.

"Country" and "nation" are not the same things, at least in Russian.

Originally Posted by lodka

"Country" and "nation" are not the same things, at least in Russian.

My bad. People use those words interchangeably here but they are different. So yeah, now I get what you meant. Russia and Ukraine may be 2 different Countries but they are the same Nation.

Nation: A large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory.

And Ukraine definitely has the same common descent, history, culture, and language that Russia has. They really should stress the difference here but they don't. Thanks for letting me know.

Actually, Ukraine was not "part of Russia" during the USSR era, and that is one of the main reasons there are problems now. Ukraine was a separate republic, in the USSR.

I am too fed up with the whole business to explain it though.

The USSR was a union with some similarities to the EU, but of course a closer union than the EU, and a different type of governance.
In terms of closeness between the Soviet republics, it was somewhere in between states of the USA and the nations of the EU.
Read this to understand the organisation of the USSR into Republics and Regions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republi...e_Soviet_Union

Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republics of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This system worked well during Soviet days, as far as I understand, but it lead to several wars after the breakup of the USSR, since a number of regions had been in the "wrong" Soviet republic (which didn't matter much during Soviet days, but suddenly became important when regional languages were pushed hard in the new countries, or ethnicity/religion became a big deal.

As a result these regions subsequently ended up in the "wrong" country when the USSR split up. Examples: Nagorno Karabach, Pridnestrovie, Gaugazia, Crimea and possibly Donbass, South Ossetia, Abkhazia and probably some more places that I don't know about. Hopefully the names should sound familiar - there have been wars or conflicts in all of these places, mainly in the 1990s.

In the USSR ethnicity, religion and language had been somewhat secondary to the Soviet ideal of a strong union, and the State had prevented extreme regionalism.

The problem was: Soviet leaders had transferred regions from one Soviet republic to another for, in hindsight, unwise reasons. Of course, they envisaged the USSR would last indefinitely and did not realise what a huge problem they created with their grand gestures or administrative decisions taken in Moscow... The Donbass area was given to the Ukrainian ASSR in such a gesture, in the 1950s.

As a result it ended up in the modern nation of Ukraine, despite being historically Rusisan.

(When reading Wiki, bear in mind that a lot of the edits of these types of articiles in Wiki were traced back to US gov't agencies before it was revealed and they smartened up. Now they probably use proxies and aliases.)