Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

I think what President Putin is doing is very logical and it will help Southeast Ukraine more than a show of force will.
He knows it was the US that started the "Ukrainian crisis". He also knows that the EU is being influenced by the US. President Putin can't get the US on his side but he does have a chance to get the EU on his side.
If he can prove to the EU that Russia isn't arming or training the pro-Russians then they will have to accept the fact that it's mostly just Ukrainian citizens defending themselves, their homes, and their families. When the EU and European countries have enough evidence then they will have to accept the truth - that the "Ukrainian crisis" is really just Ukrainian government oppression of the Ukrainian people and that the US is actively supporting government oppression.

The truth will be revealed and when it is, Europe will know that the US supports military oppression, not democracy. President Putin is helping Europe to learn the truth and that's very important.
Imo, that will do more to help Southeast Ukraine than accusations that the US/EU would only dismiss.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

The truth will be revealed and when it is, Europe will know that the US supports military oppression, not democracy. President Putin is helping Europe to learn the truth and that's very important.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

"Дурак-дурак, да умный": пока всё чётко идёт по его плану, если эта карикатура в какой-то мере отражает действительность.

Originally Posted by Lampada

"Дурак-дурак, да умный": пока всё чётко идёт по его плану, если эта карикатура в какой-то мере отражает действительность.

Yes, I think the short-term goal of the US is to convince the EU to apply energy sector sanctions against Russia, killing two birds with one stone: Russia would lose significant part of its revenue and the US could supply the EU with liquefied gas, acquiring new partner in this sector. Hence all the anti-Russian propaganda and calls to decrease dependence on Russian natural gas supplies.
However so far the EU does not want to stop buying cheap Russian gas and switch to expensive liquefied gas and increase its dependence on the US.
In the face of recent events the EU might want to re-think its dependence on the US.
Here is an example of the US reach - BNP Paribas Agrees to Pay Nearly $9 Billion to Resolve U.S. Probe - WSJ
The US "fines" French bank for nearly $9 billions, I mean it is clear that the US wants to control the whole world and dictates its will even to Europe.

This is interesting. Poroshenko's Ministry of Defense is now the RAND Corporation.
President Poroshenko Uses RAND Corporation “Action Plan” for Eastern Ukraine including Ground Assaults and Air Strikes | Global Research

To make it easier for Russians to read the photographed document, I typed it up.

Confidential document prepared by the RAND corporation:

MEMORANDUM
On the advisable course of action in case the peace plan fails

In case further negotiation with southeast Ukrainian Insurgents should prove futile, the only practicable solution should be a swift crackdown on the separatists and terrorists, to be undertaken irrespective of public opinion or operation costs. Procrastination would dramatically reduce the operation's chances of success.

Possible political and material downsides of an operation should be greatly outweighed by the following probable gains:

- Activists of a pro-Russian political movement get decimated, pro-Russian voters get disorganized.
- A significant share of the region's coal industries get destroyed in the fighting, or are otherwise designated for a quick shutdown, thus relieving Ukraine's budget of the burdensome subsidy costs.
- Shutting down Donbas Industries will mean a stark reduction in gas consumption, and therefore a lesser dependency on Russian energy imports.
- Rinat Akhmetov and his clan's political and economic clout is considerably weakened.
- Ukraine's current economic and social difficulties can be explained to the public as the unwanted yet unavoidable consequences of the military operation, which the Ukrainian government has been keen yet unable to avoid due to the terrorists' Intransigence.

The Presumable Stages of a Military Operation

Stage One: Total isolation of the rebel region

Considering that any resident of the Donetsk Region and the Lugansk Region has had enough time and opportunities to leave the area of hostilities provided that they wanted to do so, anyone who has stayed behind should be regarded as complicit in the unrest, or supportive of it.

Martial law shall be introduced in the defiant regions. All local authorities shall have their competencies terminated, the Constitution shall be suspended. Direct presidential rule shall be imposed.

The region shall be encircled with troops and sealed off entirely from any flow of goods and persons, both incoming and outgoing. Special attention shall be given to areas that border on Russia. Broadcasting services, Internet connection, telephone and mobile communications in the region shall be shut down. A curfew shall be imposed between 20:00 and 06:00. International media staff working in the region shall be subject to a special procedure.

Stage two: Mop-up

The circle of troops around the rebel region shall be tightened gradually. Ground assaults shall be prece4ded by air strikes against the enemy's strategic facilities, artillery and mortar teams, and bunched-up troops. The use of non-conventional arms shall not be ruled out in certain cases in order to ensure smaller casualties among our own personnel.

Settlements shall be liberated one by one, with armor going in first and wiping out the remaining pockets of resistance, shooting to kill anyone who bears arms. Infantry shall move in next to relocate male adults into internment camps. Anyone who attempts to resist shall be executed on the spot. Children aged under 13 and people older than 60 shall be moved to specially equipped facilities in areas that are further away from the zone of the anti-terrorist operation.

Internment camps shall set up outside the settlements that have been cleared, and guarded by units who are considered to be ideologically safe. People featuring traces of combat engagement, like bruises, scuff marks, gunshot and fragment wounds, traces of gunpowder and gun oil on the skin and clothes, shall be tried in court for separatism and terrorism. After a two-month period of internment, the remaining individuals shall be allowed to return to places of their residence and be placed under surveillance by security services.

Stage 3: Back to Normal

Military specialists shall be employed to restore water, heat, power supplies and communications.

The borders shall be strengthened, with checkpoints set up to avoid possible provocations by Russia and to prepare for a massive return of refugees. Those who fled the war zone shall be allowed to return to their place of residence. However, men aged 18-60 shall be checked for possible support for separatists in internment camps. The property of convicted and displaced residents of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions shall be nationalized by the state and later awarded to the servicemen who would be distinguished for valor during the anti-terrorist campaign.

Special focus shall be made on information security, which means that the area of the anti-terrorist campaign shall be made off limits to foreign media. Stories of heroism and courage of Ukraine's armed forces, the National Guard and other armed units in saving civilians in the east of Ukraine from terrorists and armed gangs shall be spread as broadly as possible.

Note: If the active stage of the anti-terrorist operation ends no later than September 1, 2014, martial law shall be lifted no earlier than January 1, 2015.

Notice the last part about foreign media. And I thought the US Constitution supported Freedom of the Press. Hmmm.... Maybe I misread the Constitution. Maybe the White House thinks it meant Freedom of Propaganda?

Originally Posted by Basil77

It's not about the conflict between Ukrainians and Russians. From 1/3 to 1/2 of population of Russian Federation have Ukrainian heritage and vice versa. Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. The conflict is more like between Russophobic Russians/Ukrainians etc. and Pro-Russian Russians/Ukrainians etc. You underestimate the current level of hysterical propaganda in Ukraine. For example my wife's mother called yesterday and asked why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians. Ordinary people in Ukraine believe that all these atrocities which currently happen made by Russian regular army by personal Putin's orders and poor Ukraine soldiers are defending these lands and trying to save civilians by the cost of their lives. But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth.

LOL! "Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. " Huh?

Some of you guys are good for comedy.

".....why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians....But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth" - > where did the separatists get all their artillery and tanks? Just got them out of thin air I suppose.

Putin doesn't give a **** about ethnic Ukrainians or ethnic Russians. This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians IDIOTS and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice. You are uninformed about your own country. You're not ashamed AT ALL?!? Wow. It's really fascinating.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians IDIOTS and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice.

Wtf are you even talking about.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

where did the separatists get all their artillery and tanks?

That's something new
AFAIK the rebels don't have artillery, except mortars, which they got from multiple military bases in Ukraine, there were reports that the rebels have taken control over several of those.
As for the tanks, I believe officially only three tanks were seen to be in possession of rebels, both sides confirmed that, and those tanks were T64BV models and only Ukraine has them. And Kiev's army already claimed that they have destroyed two out three of those tanks, so it is unclear what is all the fuss about?
There were also unconfirmed reports that the rebels have taken control over military repair base in Artyomovsk and got themselves over 200 tanks in semi-working conditions and several "Grad" rocket launchers, but again, it's unconfirmed

Originally Posted by Lampada

"Дурак-дурак, да умный": пока всё чётко идёт по его плану

Да что ты говоришь. В его планах было занять крымские военные базы, а потом главной целью стало спровоцировать военное вторжение России на территорию Украины (этого некоторые и сейчас добиваются, устраивая прилеты осколков от снарядов на российскую территорию) и устроить всемирную истерию по этому поводу.
Ни то, ни другое не удалось. "Вигвам называется".

Originally Posted by 14Russian

... Where did the separatists get all their artillery and tanks? Just got them out of thin air I suppose.

The 3 tanks are T-64BV's, a Ukrainian military upgrade of the old Soviet T-64. The fact that they were seen crossing into Ukraine doesn't exclude the possibility that they coulda crossed into Russia first. The Ukrainian army has been caught driving APC's into Russia. The rest of the artillery coulda been taken from any Ukrainian base or warehouse. It's also common practice to take artillery from captured enemy troops... or maybe even the ones that surrendered and changed sides?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Putin doesn't give a **** about ethnic Ukrainians or ethnic Russians. This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians IDIOTS and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice. You are uninformed about your own country. You're not ashamed AT ALL?!? Wow. It's really fascinating.

1. Putin doesn't care about ethnic Ukrainians. (emotional language isn't required in any debate)
2. Putin doesn't care about ethnic Russians.
3. This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians idiots...
4. and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice.
5. You are uninformed about your own country.

You've made 5 completely unsupported claims. If you don't back them up with concrete evidence, they will be summarily dismissed.
Also, tell me how much you knew about the PRISM surveillance system, the international wiretapping, and the deaths of the Reuters journalists (by friendly fire) before the Manning/Snowden leaks.
If you can't provide an answer and proof of your early knowledge of those events, then I will have to conclude that "You are uninformed about your own country.".

I saw the RAND document on RT. Flabbergasted!

I am very propganda conscious so I immediately read it looking for signs that it was fake. I.e. dodgy English. But as far as I can tell, it's got every sign of being compiled by a young think-tank employee with legal training "shall this, "shall that".

I noticed no non-native English grammar mistakes, missed definite articles, incorrectly used words or expressions or anything to indicate that anyone other than a young, reasonably educated think tank employee, with some limited legal background wrote this. Exactly as you would expect if it was genuine.
Native English speakers, do you agree with my assessment of language?

If it was a plant, it's very unlikely that it would be in native English with the exact type of tone you'd expect from the type of employee who'd write something like that.

Also the fact that it doesn't seem well aqcuainted with real conditions in Ukraine, is probably a further confirmation that it's genuine; a Ukrainian or Russian who hypothetically created this for propaganda reasons would be better informed about the real situation in Ukraine.

The fact that RAND denies writing it, means nothing.
This is exactly how the US does these types of operations; through instructions provided by privately or gov't funded think tanks.
It's how the flower and colour revolutions are planned.

Obviously now that it's been revealed, they'll have to re-rig the plan so it's not too obvious when it's later implemented.







@14Russian: I'll let your rant slip because I assume you were drunk when you wrote it. Feel free to clarify what you mean when you sobered up because it made no sense whatsoever.

@hddscan: You are a breath of well needed fresh air in this forum for sure. Keep it up!

Originally Posted by Hanna

the RAND document

Regargless of is it fake or not, it's pretty predictable, not surprising and quite boring.
These plans were pretty obvious from the very beginning.

Originally Posted by hddscan

Yes, I think the short-term goal of the US is to convince the EU to apply energy sector sanctions against Russia, killing two birds with one stone: Russia would lose significant part of its revenue and the US could supply the EU with liquefied gas, acquiring new partner in this sector. Hence all the anti-Russian propaganda and calls to decrease dependence on Russian natural gas supplies.
However so far the EU does not want to stop buying cheap Russian gas and switch to expensive liquefied gas and increase its dependence on the US.
In the face of recent events the EU might want to re-think its dependence on the US.
Here is an example of the US reach - BNP Paribas Agrees to Pay Nearly $9 Billion to Resolve U.S. Probe - WSJ
The US "fines" French bank for nearly $9 billions, I mean it is clear that the US wants to control the whole world and dictates its will even to Europe.

Unfortuntely we are "hooked" on the USA in Europe.

If the USA is heroin, we are junkies.

It will take a long time to 1) admit the problem, 2) kick the habit, 3) start a new life with sound relationships.

The USA spies on us, tricks or bullies us into its idiotic and consistently failed wars and is responsible --- deliberately or not --- for some very disturbing cultural and moral developments in Europe.

Yet we continue coming back for more. We are guilty of this ourselves and NOTHING seems to be able to snap most people out of it. Wikileaks and Snowden changed little.

“We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Most people in Western Europe and lately also Eastern Europe grew up surrounded by:

American food
American beverages
American style clothing
American music
American films
American TV
American computer games
American military bases
American culture
American values
...and more

When Europe did this to Asia, Africa and South America we called it by its rightful names: Imperialism and colonialism. But this is on a grander scale and not acknowledged for what it is.

If a German person puts on tracht he's considered a backwards nerd. But nobody thinks twice if he wears jeans and a T shirt with an American slogan, in English.

In England, people dancing traditional English dances are often accused of being racist. But nobody thinks twice if they dance to hip-hop or disco.

In Sweden, kids nowadays are swearing in English. They'd choose a McDonald's Happy Meal over a traditional healthy meal of fresh fish and newly picked mushrooms.

Every kid on the European continent knows Disney's characters. But the traditional fairytales are being forgotten. The kids can sing the tunes to these films, but not traditional songs that existed for hundreds of years.

I could go on forever with examples like this.
I'm not saying this is America's fault exclusively or that all of it is deliberate. We are guilty for allowing it to happen.

Americans, please don't take this as an insult on your culture, it isn't. American culture in small doses, or in the country where it belongs is an amazing thing that I greatly appreciate.

But all this has created a situation where America can get away with ANYTHING in Europe. We are US zombies! I doubt if a massacre perpetrated by the US in central London, Paris or Berlin would make people snap out of it. It would be justified as anti-terrorist or a tragic accident in the US controlled media and people would get back to their Cokes, computer games and Hollywood films.

The US energy plan will fall on geographical and economical realities though.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Regargless of is it fake or not, it's pretty predictable, not surprising and quite boring.
These plans were pretty obvious from the very beginning.

To you maybe, to me they weren't, and what's more its proof that might convince English speaking people who believe that the Kiev gov't is conducting an anti-terrorist operation.

Some good news coming, (in case it's not fake, of course) :

Ukraine claims victory as rebel fighters reportedly flee Slavyansk - Telegraph

Ukraine claims victory as rebel fighters reportedly flee Slavyansk
Rebel fighters abandoned their most important stronghold in the Donetsk region, according to reports in local media

Yes, what they called it was a "tactical retreat", but according to some news sources, it's just an euphemism for defeat. I hope Ukraine gets back its integrity pretty soon!

Now, this statement of one of the separatists should get you, Russians, really angry:

“Kutuzov also retreated, as was the plan,” he said, In an apparent reference to the 1812 battle of Borodino. “Russians only retreat before a decisive victory.”

They intentionally use every opportunity to boast about their alleged links to your country, deliberately making an international deal out of a local criminal gang thing. What do you say?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Now, this statement of one of the separatists should get you, Russians, really angry

Wow, where is a moderator when you need one?

Originally Posted by hddscan

Wow, where is a moderator when you need one?

Originally Posted by hddscan

Wow, where is a moderator when you need one?

Why? If I were Russian, what that idiot said would get me real pissed off...

I mean, they're trying to get your country into their criminal gang stuff, isn't that enough???

Originally Posted by Eric C.

what that idiot said

Лампада, ты же ж напишешь же ж, что называть людей идиотами is not nice, правда ж ведь?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

А есть ли доказательства целенаправленных убийств беззащитных мирных жителей в том регионе вообще, и в частности, подобных убийств совершенных украинской армией? Вы ведь понимаете, что убийства вооруженных агрессоров никак не могут учитываться в этой статистике. Не вижу причин не ликвидировать тех с оружием в руках воюющих против украинской армии в том регионе - и чем скорее те сепаратисты будут все положены, тем скорее наступит мир.

Украинец, пытающийся пропагандировать русского, — всё равно, что папуас, пытающийся пропагандировать этнолога. (c)

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I hope Ukraine gets back its integrity pretty soon!

When you asked us "But what about you, Russian guys? So you ARE involved, or still not?", we answered here (although you seem to not care about our replies). Now I have a question to you, "What about YOU? Are YOU involved? What is YOUR interest if you HOPE something will happen in Ukraine?" Your position is Russophobic, still you can write a very good Russian, and you *hope* about some events in Ukraine. I'm beginning to have a guess...