Thread: Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

There was no choice whatsoever. To fight for what? For whom? They've told everything's going to be if not better but the same at least. You really think they'd be supporting Ukrainian cause in this situation? I really doubt they were bullied into vote and I really doubt many people in Crimea now are disappointed about how the things have turned out.

Originally Posted by Ramil

There was no choice whatsoever. To fight for what? For whom? They've told everything's going to be if not better but the same at least. You really think they'd be supporting Ukrainian cause in this situation? I really doubt they were bullied into vote and I really doubt many people in Crimea now are disappointed about how the things have turned out.

As for Tatars - they can fight, for example, for not being cleaned again. You can easily see even at our forum that ethnic cleaning is not something tootally inacceptable for the most of contemporary Russian citizens. Though those few Crimean Tatars I knew personally were very peaceful people.

Yes, I beleve that most locals doesn't care about Ukrainian cause, and just want to live and hope for better. I believe even that in 1941 in territories captured by Germans situation was the same and if Hitler cared for referendum and provided some informatonal and organizational efforts, most people would come and vote for joining Reich without direct threat and being arrested etc. If people are not actually provided with a choice, the majority just do whatever current authority wants them to - just in case.

Before invasion there was a choice - and there were discussions, political life, demonstrations even a kind of quarrels and fights in Crimea. After invasion all of that stopped - there is nothing to discuss anymore, everything is quiet and even crime rate dropped down ( ), just some armed men without signs here and there. Well, the society of slaves has many pros against the society of citizens, yes.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

As for Tatars - they can fight, for example, for not being cleaned again. You can easily see even at our forum that ethnic cleaning is not something tootally inacceptable for the most of contemporary Russian citizens. Though those few Crimean Tatars I knew personally were very peaceful people.

Noone's going to cleanse them. You know it, they know it, and I know it as well. So stop bullshitting people.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I believe even that in 1941 in territories captured by Germans situation was the same and if Hitler cared for referendum and provided some informatonal and organizational efforts, most people would come and vote for joining Reich without direct threat and being arrested etc.

Then why so many people on occupied territories went underground and joined resistance?

P.S. I'm just stating my point. I'm not going to argue with you since you apparently have set your mind to stone about several things that I simply do not agree with.

P.S.S. There was NO invasion, by the way. According to treaty with the Ukrainian government Russia could station up to 25,000 servicemen in Crimea. From a political standpoint Russia did nothing wrong (I'm not questioning abstract morality of the whole situation since I do not believe there is a place for such things in politics - just the so called 'internationa law'). There was a coup in Kiev, the official government was overthrown and some political opportunists seized the power without vote. There was nobody official in Kiev to negotiate with so Russia simply took the necessary actions to protect its assets in Crimea. As for the referendum - it just happenned alongway. That is the consequence of illegal and unconstitutional actions that took place in Kiev.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Noone's going to cleanse them. You know it, they know it and I know it as well. So stop bullshitting people.

I knew that noone would attack Ukraine from the East when we experience difficult time to cut a part of territory and cause/support all kind of troubles on the rest of our territory. My knowledge was wrong. Rules are in the process of change and noone knows where it comes. Why not some cleansings? Who will mind? Will you?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I knew that noone would attack Ukraine from the East when we experience difficult time to cut a part of territory and cause/support all kind of troubles on the rest of our territory. My knowledge was wrong. Rules are in the process of change and noone knows where it comes. Why not some cleansings? Who will mind? Will you?

As I said - that's pure bullshit.

Originally Posted by Ramil

As I said - that's pure bullshit.

I know, that's pure bullshit - you will never protest against any crime of your rulers and state. That's why mr. Poo can do whatever he likes and cleanse whoever he likes.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I know, that's pure bullshit - you will never protest against any crime of your rulers and state. That's why mr. Poo can do whatever he likes and cleanse whoever he likes.

You protested much as it appears. There's no use in crying over a spilled milk. Still there will be no cleanings. I was speaking of them, not protesting against anything.

About professor Zubov once again. He is a responsible editor of a 2-volume book "History of Russia" which in the beginning was created under the guidance of Solzhenitsin, but lately he decided to distance himself from that project. The reasons for that is in his letter:

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Well, OK, I understand, you have no experience in voting during foreign military occupation. But at least you can try to think about the following questions.

1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only native Crimean ethnos. After WWII ALL of them (the whole ethnos) were brought away from Crimea with many casualities and without possessions to elsewhere (mainly to the Central Asia) by Russian (Soviet) militaries (nowadays it is called "ethnic cleaning"). The survivors came back recently and up to now they many times showed their position as anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian and were very active in public actions etc. Namely just before invasion and after the runaway of Yanukovich they were making intensive anti-Russian mass protests. Now the question: why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about 100%?

2) In the elections before the invasion the pro-russian party of contemporary Crimean "government" gained 3% of votes. What exactly made other 92% of population change their opinion so drastically? (If you say it is the revolution against Yanukovich, remember that the similar revolution in 2004 didn't cause such an effect).

You are right, I don't have any experience voting in an occupied country but I have "voted" when my safety (and maybe even my life) was threatened. When 2 college dudes attacked my friend, I "voted" to help him. I coulda just walked away and been safe but I didn't. My ribs were bruised and my jaw was fractured but I didn't stop fighting. Sometimes you have to do what's right even if it hurts.

1. I don't know anything about the history of the Crimean Tatars yet. But don't forget, the population of Hawaii is only 10% native Hawaiians because most of them were killed in the military coup staged by the US. So if the annexation of Hawaii by America was legal then how can anyone say that the annexation of Crimea by Russia isn't? At least the Crimean people had the chance to vote. The Hawaiians didn't. Btw, the native Hawaiians still want their islands back but it probably won't ever happen.
Anyway, I don't think the UN or International Laws would allow ethnic cleaning now so the Tatars are safe from that. I also read that a lot of Ukrainians work in Russia because the jobs in Ukraine don't pay them enough.So Crimeans may have a better chance to have better jobs now.

2. I don't know very much about the Orange Revolution because I haven't studied that yet. But it's also possible that their opinions were different before the pro-Russian movement because they were afraid what might happen to their families if they spoke out against the government. I do know that in American history, the revolutionaries met secretly so that the British wouldn't know who they were till they were ready to attack. So maybe the Crimeans changed their opinion because they were afraid of the Russians. But maybe they were just hiding their real opinions till they knew that Russia would back them up. I don't know but those Crimean voters seemed way too happy for people that are living in fear so I think they were just hiding their real opinions... till now.
In the military it's called "the element of surprise".

I study a lot of history (even military history) and I've even been reading Sun Tzu's book, The Art Of War. But my favorite topic is Russian history so I know I'll learn a lot more about the USSR in the future. US history was easy because it only covers less than 300 years. Russian history is more than a thousand years so that's gonna take a lot longer.

Originally Posted by Hanna

*Somebody* orderered the shooting of civilians with sniper rifles. Some yobs are in power who might very well be extreme nationalists, possibly Nazis, and the whole country is about to get into the clutches of the IMF, Washington and Brussels. .

Yes the yobs are the US/EU/Globalists. The Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs is aware and mentioned this in a phone call to a US stateswoman. The USA spent 5 Billion Dollars inciting the Ukraine riots. Don't think for a minute that they did not also provide the snipers to shoot a both the police and the protestors.

Originally Posted by DDT

... Don't think for a minute that they did not also provide the snipers to shoot a both the police and the protestors.

Привет!

Originally Posted by Ramil

Russia simply took the necessary actions to protect its assets in Crimea

Took actions and in passing the whole peninsula

Leaked EU’s Ashton Phone Tape: Kiev Snipers Were Hired by US Supported Opposition Leaders Leaked EU’s Ashton Phone Tape: Kiev Snipers Were Hired by US Supported Opposition Leaders | Global Research

Моя версия происходящего такова:

Несколько лет назад мы с женой отдыхали в Крыму, и решили перекусить в Макдоналдс. Простояв в очереди до кассы, мы заказали, помимо всего прочего, картофель-фри с сырным соусом. На что кассир заявила: «Сколько можно повторять... У нас нет сырного соуса! Здесь вам не Россия. Здесь Украина. В украинских Макдоналдсах нет сырного соуса». Вся очередь, услышав это, загалдела: «Как нет сырного соуса?!», «Как Украина?!», «Разве Крым — это Украина?!», «Почему в Украине всё так плохо?!», «А я сколько раз говорил, что Крым надо присоединять к России!». Ну и далее в этом духе.

Вот так и началась вся эта заварушка вокруг Крыма...

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Took actions and in passing the whole peninsula

No way. It was the locals who voted yesterday. Russian soldiers simply made sure there was no threats to their naval base and the civilians considering the absence of legitimate power in Ukraine.

Originally Posted by SAn

Это всё из-за сырного соуса...

Да, думаю, ты изолировал главную причину.

Есть ещё такое мнение:
Мнение: Не надо жертвовать

Originally Posted by Ramil

Russian soldiers simply made sure there was no threats to their naval base and the civilians considering the absence of legitimate power in Ukraine.

Of course

Originally Posted by Ramil

They've been simply bought. Their leaders have already received several million dollars 'for building a mosque' and I expect they will receive some extra in the near future. Putin gave personal guarantees that their current property will remain 'as is' (which means that everything they had illegally appropriated before will remain theirs de-jure). I'd say this is more than enough to change sides. I doubt they were too patriotic about Ukraine anyway. As for the rest of the population - they all know that salaries and pensions are generally higher in Russia that they had been in Ukraine during Yanukovich's rule and certainly they will be much higher now. Everybody voted by their purse and I don't blame them. I would do the same.

Yes, of course. The same way that "Yes to EU" was bought in a number of countries. Public opinion magically turning in just a few months.
I was part of it myself, using populistic arguments and expensive campaigning because I thought at the time, it was the right thing.

I understand that the Crimea vote is partly, or even largely about money, as well as language and nationalism for 40+ people. Nothing new under the sun!

Nevertheless, it DOES reflect the will of the people.

There were international observers in place, obviously not the EU "approved" ones since they would never have been allowed to go there, but political scientists from a wide variety of countries, including countries quite hostile to Russia, like Poland Estonia and Czech Republic. As well as several long standing EU countries. There is no way that whole group would have been hood winked.

Even if you account for any possible irregularities, the participation was high, and the number of votes were overwhelming.

The Swedish main paper who were there reporting, WANTED to find somebody who had voted No to interview, but had to admit they didn't actually anyone. BBC found one woman wearing a full middle eastern style hijab, who voted no. I doubt she'd be any happier in Ukraine than Russia though.

The other point to consider is that none of this would have happened if there hadn't been a coup d'etat in Ukraine. And I very much doubt the coup d'etat would have taken place if the EU and USA hadn't come to cheer it on. They created this situation, and those Ukrainians who were stupid enough to smash up their capital for a coup d'etat one measly year before the next election.

Remains to see if the situation in Eastern Ukraine can be resolved to a level that satisfies the majority, so there is no repetition of this.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Well, OK, I understand, you have no experience in voting during foreign military occupation. But at least you can try to think about the following questions.

1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only native Crimean ethnos. After WWII ALL of them (the whole ethnos) were brought away from Crimea with many casualities and without possessions to elsewhere (mainly to the Central Asia) by Russian (Soviet) militaries (nowadays it is called "ethnic cleaning"). The survivors came back recently and up to now they many times showed their position as anti-Russian and pro-Ukrainian and were very active in public actions etc. Namely just before invasion and after the runaway of Yanukovich they were making intensive anti-Russian mass protests. Now the question: why are they so quiet now and how exactly in your opinion they are distributed among those official voters? If they voted for joining Russia why exactly they are so happy to do it, and if they didn't come to vote, why exactly, and why exactly all other population came about 100%?

2) In the elections before the invasion the pro-russian party of contemporary Crimean "government" gained 3% of votes. What exactly made other 92% of population change their opinion so drastically? (If you say it is the revolution against Yanukovich, remember that the similar revolution in 2004 didn't cause such an effect).

I read up on the Crimean tatars. Don't quite get why they should be any more loyal to Ukraine than Russia though? Seems to me they ought to want complete independence for Crimea, or some kind of union with Turkey. As Russian citizens today, in modern times, they have nothing to worry about, and can join with many other minorities to make sure they get their fair share, and some, of the cake! From what I see out of Kiev, they'll have more rights in Russia, and they'll get more support for their culture and language. Maybe Russia should consider compensating them for the treatment they received under Stalin. Europe is full of minorities that were oppressed, treated poorly and had their land conquered and stolen in the past. They are certainly not the only ones. A sincere apology and solid support and commitment for their culture and language is the best that any country can do to make up for the past. My impression is that Russia will try to do that. Otherwise I would be the first to support them in complaining.

As for now, vs 2004.... Yes, it's interesting. You know I am a Pol. Science geek, and this is about as fascinating as it gets...
I think the explanation is:

• The revolution in Kiev, and the destruction.
• EU doesn't offer anything concrete if you scratch the surface. Russia does.
• Russia is much richer now than in 2004 while this cannot be said for Ukraine. Russia can actually offer them a better standard of living.
• The language issue
• Soviet inspired patriotism among over 40s, now directed towards Russia. Singing songs, waving flags and being part of something big...
• People are more confident about democratic rights and standing up for themselves.

With this, I am not saying that Russia is some perfect country, or that I would like MY country to be Russian. What I am saying is that the reasons the Crimeans changed their opinion makes sense to me, and I think this referendum reflects the will of the great majority.

Allowing the revolution opened up a Pandora's box. It seems to me, that losing Crimea is the direct result of the revolution. Areas take this opportunity when they can don't they? For example Finland took the opportunity in the chaos of the Russian revolution.

I hope the situation in Eastern Ukraine can be resolved between Ukrainians without Russia getting involved. Once is enough and I certainly took in what it-Ogo said in a previous post

Also, to it-Ogo I want to say; I totally get that this is emotional and upsetting for you. It's a real pity that it came to it.
Sure, Russia is opportunistic to take advantage of it. But I think Crimea was too big a prize to reject, when it's practically served on a platter!

I also think Crimea was one of the main reasons the EU and USA took an interest in this, but they failed to predict the turn of events. Now, all that remains is a smearing campaign and propaganda war!

They are virtually ignoring the situation in Eastern Ukraine, clearly it's not "interesting" enough, and the people of Ukraine was never their concern, it was about influence - economic and military. I think you are justified to be seriously p-d off with Russia, but I hope you also agree that the EU and USA are serious culprits in this.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

1) Now there are 15% of Crimean Tatars in Crimea. They are the only native Crimean ethnos.

I wouldn't call Tatars native to Crimea. They were invaders (as I am sure you know). The Kievan Rus, Slavs themselves predate the Tartars and have maintained their presence ever since. They the Slavs are the oldest natives of this region, whether they are Russian or Ukrainian. The very first people recorded in Crimea were Cimmerians. Even the Greeks predate the Tartars in Crimea. Also, I think 15% is a little high. Most figures tell us that it is 12% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol...ates_in_Europe