Thread: Crimea joining the Russian Federation and its implications?

Originally Posted by edvalais

Read also the messages posted by a Russian who says he doesn't care that Americans were banned from adopting orphans in Russia - even if it means the orphans have to stay in their (sometimes vile) care homes.

I know it's popular in the US to call the adoption ban a retaliation for the Magnitsky Act but I don't believe that. Russia's response was to ban certain Americans from entering Russia.
Did you read about the Russian baby that was abused by the American homosexual couple that adopted him? Google "Mark Newton" or "Peter Truong". Do 3 year olds really beat themselves to death? Google "Maxim Kuzmin".
Or maybe the 7 year old that was beaten to death by his adoptive parents in Texas? Google "Ivan Skorobogatov". Or maybe the 6 year old that was beaten to death? His adoptive mother was only charged with involuntary manslaughter. Google "Alex Pavlis".
It's a huge list of dead and abused Russian orphans that led to that adoption ban. If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I know it's popular in the US to call the adoption ban a retaliation for the Magnitsky Act but I don't believe that. Russia's response was to ban certain Americans from entering Russia.

Well, with respect, I believe the ban on adoption was a direct response to the Magnitsky Act. If Magnitsky had never happened, Americans would still be able to adopt. As for the ban on some Americans entering Russia, how many of these Americans hid the proceeds of illegal activities in the US in Russia? I would say roughly zero. How many of the Russian Magnitsky fraudsters hid money in the US? All of them? Half of them?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

You're kidding, right? If there is abuse anywhere the perpetrators need to be punished. I hope that anyone abusing Russian orphans is given an exemplary prison sentence. Nevertheless, if I were a Russian orphan I would pray that an American would adopt me, rather than staying in the orphanage.

В интернет попало шокирующее видео избиения сирот в российском интернате - Новости мира на 1+1 - ТСН.ua

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

...It's a huge list of dead and abused Russian orphans that led to that adoption ban. If I was a Russian orphan, I would pray that I was never adopted by an American family. The adoption ban was put in place to protect Russian orphans.

Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list? How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу.
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list? How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу.
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

You express much more eloquently what I was trying to say!

It may seem that I'm being "anti-Russian", but I'm in fact trying to be "pro-children". I would much rather that a British orphan was adopted by a properly-vetted Russian couple than remain in care in the UK. (There have been scandals in UK children's homes too.)

I'm also not being "anti-Russian" when I criticise politics in your country - I'm "pro-democracy". I equally deplore what's happening in Guantanimo etc. Democracy should have no nationality.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Well, with respect, I believe the ban on adoption was a direct response to the Magnitsky Act. If Magnitsky had never happened, Americans would still be able to adopt. As for the ban on some Americans entering Russia, how many of these Americans hid the proceeds of illegal activities in the US in Russia? I would say roughly zero. How many of the Russian Magnitsky fraudsters hid money in the US? All of them? Half of them?

Everyone has an opinion but there's no proof that the adoption ban was a response to the Magnitsky Act. But there's proof that it could have been a response to the abuse and deaths. I could be wrong but my conclusion is based on what I know about it... and that's not very much.
I know almost nothing about the Magnitsky act or the people who were affected by it so I can't comment on that.

Originally Posted by edvalais

You're kidding, right? If there is abuse anywhere the perpetrators need to be punished. I hope that anyone abusing Russian orphans is given an exemplary prison sentence. Nevertheless, if I were a Russian orphan I would pray that an American would adopt me, rather than staying in the orphanage.

В интернет попало шокирующее видео избиения сирот в российском интернате - Новости мира на 1+1 - ТСН.ua

It's good that the authorities are investigating the abuse in that orphanage. But it happens in other orphanages too.
Btw, I'm happy you feel as strongly about this issue as I do. I had a friend that was abused by his adoptive family. They moved so I don't know where he is now but I'm sure he's not happy. That shouldn't be happening to any kid anywhere.
I've never been in an orphanage and I didn't watch the video in the link. But yeah, I have heard about them and I know I wouldn't want to be in one... or be adopted. It sounds kinda scary either way.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ужасные, ужасные случаи! A huge list? How huge? Просто никогда не могла читать о подобном. Для любой нормальной матери - это, как ножом по сердцу.
И всё равно здесь я с тобой не согласна. Ты можешь нагуглить сотни, тысячи историй о прекрасных усыновлениях. Душа болит за детей, которые остаются никому не нужными. Особенно трагичны в детских домах жизни больных сирот и сирот-инвалидов.

I got dragged into a thread about the adoptions by a friend at another site. I didn't read all the articles and I refuse to watch videos about that topic. If there are hundreds and thousands of good adoptions then that makes me happy. And I agree orphanages should be a safe place for kids with people that really care about them. I'm not a girl or a mom but I'm not a monster either. It disturbs me to hear about the bad things that happen. Kids should be protected and safe.

Очень хорошее видео!

Originally Posted by edvalais

Thanks for the translation, Serge. Perhaps you could translate this for me:

"Профессора кафедры философии МГИМО Андрея Зубова уволили из высшего учебного заведения спустя несколько дней после того, как в одном из федеральных СМИ им была опубликована статья, в резкой форме критикующая возможность ввода российских войск в Крым."

For many other similar reports, simply enter "зубов увольнение" in google or yandex. However, if you still sincerely believe that the professor hasn't been sacked, perhaps you should contact him and give him the good news.

Why didn't you provide the link to your quotation? Maybe because of a fear that people with brains can read the whole article and then look at the source of the information and its date and make their own conclusion?
Well here are my reasons:
1. The URL of the article you've mentioned is here: Скандал! Профессор МГИМО Андрей Зубов уволен из вуза после публикации своей нашумевшей антивоенной статьи, в которой он резко осудил решение Владимира Путина о вводе российских войск в Крым - Газета "ВЕДОМОСТИ Урал" г. Екатеринбург
And here is the whole text:
***
Профессора кафедры философии МГИМО Андрея Зубова уволили из высшего учебного заведения спустя несколько дней после того, как в одном из федеральных СМИ им была опубликована статья, в резкой форме критикующая возможность ввода российских войск в Крым. Об увольнении сегодня, 4 марта, на своей странице в социальной сети Facebook сообщила дочь профессора Ирина Бобринская.

«Через зав. кафедрой философии моему отцу, Андрею Зубову, передано, что ректор МГИМО увольняет его из института», - написала Ирина Бобринская.
***(end of quote)
As you can see the first sentence of the article contradicts the very words of the professor's daughter. She said "увольняют" - it is the present tense which in Russian is always imperfect, so there is no evidence in her words that her father is already sacked. Go and study Russian! And don't tear words from their context. A part of the truth is not the truth, and what is not the truth is a lie.
2. Let's now read some other sources on the subject, for example this one dated a day later - 5/03/2014: http://newsland.com/news/detail/id/1333806/
Here is the text:
***
Ректор МГИМО Анатолий Торкунов опроверг увольнение профессора Андрея Зубова, опубликовавшего ранее статью с критикой позиции России в отношении Украины. Об этом сообщает «Интерфакс».

По словам Торкунова, Зубов продолжает работать в вузе, и никаких уведомлений о его увольнении со стороны администрации не поступало.

«Естественно, позицию, которую он высказывал, многие не разделяют, — и я как историк не разделяю ее тоже. Но все процедуры, связанные с приемом и увольнением на работу, осуществляются в соответствии с законом», — заявил Торкунов, добавив, что «удивлен поднятым вокруг этого шумом».

4 марта об увольнении 62-летнего профессора кафедры философии Андрея Зубова из МГИМО сообщила дочь ученого Ирина Бобринская. По ее словам, Зубову об увольнении сообщил заведующий кафедрой философии. Сообщение подтвердил сам Зубов в интервью изданию Slon. "Мне сказали, чтобы я либо написал заявление по собственному желанию, либо ждал, когда меня уволят по статье. Я ответил, что сам ничего писать не буду, пускай увольняют как хотят. <...> Мне сказали прямо, что все из-за этой заметки. Но никаких подробностей говорить не стали. Ну, всем все было понятно", — рассказал Зубов, отметив, что на следующий день он должен явиться к проректору.
***(end of quote)

So the man isn't sacked, don't lie, or else people won't respect you.

Originally Posted by edvalais

I think it's pretty unwise to refer to the Chechen wars when you insist that Russia's Anschluss of Crimea is a good thing. The wars weren't that pleasant, by all accounts. Of course Anna Politkovskaya could tell us about that, but she was murdered on Putin's birthday, as you no doubt know.

First, I didn't say that "Anschluss of Crimea is a good thing". I consider it as the lesser evil. Second, there is nothing pleasant about any war, and there is no Russian who is dreaming about war with anybody. I don't know much about the murder of Politkovskaya, all I know is that political murders have happened in different countries including the most democratic ones. Let me remind you for example about Martin Luther King.
By the way I suddenly realized that I don't know the date of Putin's birthday. And it's quite strange, because I do remember the dates of Lenin's, Stalin's and Hitler's birthdays, but I've never ever heard about Putin's one. Maybe he is really a modest man? Can a modest man be a dictator?

Originally Posted by edvalais

Let me try to explain in another way why I have real worries about the way Russia is moving. Putin, in my opinion, is at the top of a very simple, very crude "vertical of power". OK, this is inevitable if he's President. But the checks and measures which operate in other countries - the constitution, the legislature, even the courts - in Russia are controlled by Putin. The whole edifice is corrupt. At the moment, according to other people on this thread, Russians support Putin, but at some stage this whole rotten structure will fall down. What will happen to Russia then? Ironically, the best description of this was by Putin himself in his Munich speech:

"Однако что же такое однополярный мир? Как бы ни украшали этот термин, он в конечном итоге означает на практике только одно: это один центр власти, один центр силы, один центр принятия решения.

Это мир одного хозяина, одного суверена. И это в конечном итоге губительно не только для всех, кто находится в рамках этой системы, но и для самого суверена, потому что разрушает его изнутри.

И это ничего общего не имеет, конечно, с демократией. Потому что демократия – это, как известно, власть большинства при учете интересов и мнений меньшинства."

I think you demonise Putin. Russia is a huge country, it's physically impossible for a single person to check everything in such a country.

@EdValais
I really don't know why you consider it necessary to put yourself in judgment over Russia. It's really not that horrible, and it is certainly not in any way a threat against Europe.

Russia has significantly less people in prison than the USA.
Russia has not been caught out spying on the world
Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions.
Russia doesn't have drone programs to assasinate people it doesn't like in foreign countries.
Russia has no history of invading one country after another for phony reasons, in order to gain control of natural resources and strategic locations.
Russia doesn't have ~100,000 soldiers stationed in Europe and over 250 military bases across the globe, including places where they are very clearly not wanted.
Russian's lives have improved over the last decade, compare with the USA.

Serge, you seem to be saying that Zubov still has a job to go to on Monday. Personally, I doubt it.

Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

Originally Posted by edvalais

Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

"Fuck the EU". Wow, it seems they really respect us. The language about the UK is probably even more insulting. This was the tip of the iceberg.

And there are some other top class ones by everyone from Bush to either one of the Clintons.

So can you give a concrete example of something like that, by a Russian leader?

Originally Posted by Hanna

"Fuck the EU". Wow, it seems they really respect us. The language about the UK is probably even more insulting. This was the tip of the iceberg.

And there are some other top class ones by everyone from Bush to either one of the Clintons.

So can you give a concrete example of something like that, by a Russian leader?

Maks -

I could have really fun listing Putin's other crass and tactless comments, but here's just one to illustrate how he sometimes conducts himself abroad. And this matters - when people think of Russia, they think of Putin.

Get circumcised, angry Putin tells reporter | World news | The Guardian

Originally Posted by edvalais

Serge, you seem to be saying that Zubov still has a job to go to on Monday. Personally, I doubt it.

Hanna, sorry, but that post is the definition of "banal". "Russia doesn't regularly get caught speaking disrespectfully about international leaders and regions." ??? FFS!

I say you understand nothing in Russia, beginning with the language. As for Zubov, he is a pensioner, so he doesn't need to work for living. I read his article, his comparison of Putin with Hitler is a gross exaggeration and has nothing to do with reality. I think all he wants is to gain cheap popularity .

Originally Posted by Basil77

Я воспринял твою историю, как попытку усомниться в зверствах бандеровцев, ты уж извини. Я вот тоже расскажу историю, которую слышал из первых рук, от деда моей жены. В 43м ему было 10 лет и он был в немецкой оккупации. Когда немцы получили люлей под Курском и начали драпать, часть СС, которая базировалась в их селе, получила приказ уничтожить всех жителей и сжечь село перед отступлением. В селе также было много полицаев, дед их называет бандеровцами. Ну так вот, дед рассказывал, как мать их сгребла в охапку и спряталась в кустах на огороде, пока немцы жгли их дом. Потом одного немца отправили прочесать огород. Он заглянул в кусты, увидел насмерть перепуганную бабу с детьми, поводил дулом автомата, сделал вид, что их не заметил, развернулся и ушёл. Не захотел брать грех на душу. А на другом конце села зачистку проводили бандеровцы. Так вот, там не выжил никто.

Угу. Ну, если быть немного в курсе истории, к тому времени все горшки между УПА и оккупационной немецкой администрацией были побиты до состояния стрельбы on sight, а сам Бандера еще с 41-го сидел в Заксенхаузене, хотя и на особых условиях. Впрочем меня это мало трогает. Никто не обязан "разбираться в сортах г-на" - ты не обязан отличать УПА от полицаев, меня от Новодворской, а я тебя от, скажем, PaulG. B любом случае, судьбы всех героев и моей и твоей историй, скорее всего, уже давно решены так или иначе, и обвинять или оправдывать их - дело бессмысленное. Все, что мы можем - это делать для себя выводы из истории ВМВ. И я бы сделал, например, такие:
- От государства, строящего свою идеологию на шовинизме и использующего войска для защиты "соотечественников" от воображаемых кого-то там на территориях соседних государств, не следует ожидать ничего хорошего ни соседям, ни собственным гражданам.
- Всегда найдутся люди, готовые сотрудничать с оккупантами в качестве полицаев или марионеточных правителей, наличие их не означает, что от оккупации будет хорошо хоть кому-то, включая самих оккупантов.
...
Ну, насчет провокаторских и пропагандистских возможностей диктаторского государства я уже говорил.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

I say you understand nothing in Russia, beginning with the language. As for Zubov, he is a pensioner, so he doesn't need to work for living. I read his article, his comparison of Putin with Hitler is a gross exaggeration and has nothing to do with reality. I think all he wants is to gain cheap popularity .

Zubov didn't compare Putin with Hitler - in fact he is very careful to distinguish the two:

"Гитлер и Путин – это совершенно разные люди, у них совершенно разные цели и устремления. Но то, что события внешней политики конца 30-х годов в жизни Германии и в современной жизни России схожи, очень похожи институционально – это так. Я в этом абсолютно уверен и готов доказать это как профессионал."

Your comment about Zubov's age (which suggests a rather unpleasant attitude towards pensioners) doesn't seem to advance the argument, therefore let's put it quietly in the bin.

You think Zubov will return to work on Monday - I don't. We can't both be right. Let's wait and see.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Угу. Ну, если быть немного в курсе истории, к тому времени все горшки между УПА и оккупационной немецкой администрацией были побиты до состояния стрельбы on sight, а сам Бандера еще с 41-го сидел в Заксенхаузене, хотя и на особых условиях. Впрочем меня это мало трогает. Никто не обязан "разбираться в сортах г-на" - ты не обязан отличать УПА от полицаев, меня от Новодворской, а я тебя от, скажем, PaulG. B любом случае, судьбы всех героев и моей и твоей историй, скорее всего, уже давно решены так или иначе, и обвинять или оправдывать их - дело бессмысленное. Все, что мы можем - это делать для себя выводы из истории ВМВ. И я бы сделал, например, такие:
- От государства, строящего свою идеологию на шовинизме и использующего войска для защиты "соотечественников" от воображаемых кого-то там на территориях соседних государств, не следует ожидать ничего хорошего ни соседям, ни собственным гражданам.
- Всегда найдутся люди, готовые сотрудничать с оккупантами в качестве полицаев или марионеточных правителей, наличие их не означает, что от оккупации будет хорошо хоть кому-то, включая самих оккупантов.
...
Ну, насчет провокаторских и пропагандистских возможностей диктаторского государства я уже говорил.

...Наши соотечественники, хотим - защищаем, хотим - нет. Кому какое дело? А вы можете дальше сидеть и жалиться всяким богатеям, что вас опять чем-то недоодарили.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Zubov didn't compare Putin with Hitler - in fact he is very careful to distinguish the two:

"Гитлер и Путин – это совершенно разные люди, у них совершенно разные цели и устремления. Но то, что события внешней политики конца 30-х годов в жизни Германии и в современной жизни России схожи, очень похожи институционально – это так. Я в этом абсолютно уверен и готов доказать это как профессионал."

I don't know where you got this qoutation, it's not from the article, and since you're following again your good habit of not providing links to you quotation, I "quitely put it in the bin".
Actually, (and I am sorry for my mistake) there was no direct comparison between Putin and Hitler in the notorious article. Actually, there was no mention about Putin at all, there was a comparison between the political processes that took place in Germany on the eve of "Anschluss" and in Russia now, which I think is quite a gross exaggeration. You can make sure about it if you take the labour to read the article: ВЕДОМОСТИ - Андрей Зубов: Это уже было
As you can see, the text of the article is not blocked and everyone can read it freely.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Your comment about Zubov's age (which suggests a rather unpleasant attitude towards pensioners) doesn't seem to advance the argument, therefore let's put it quietly in the bin.

I don't have any unpleasant attitude to pensioners. I reminded about his age to make it clear that Zubov doesn't lose too much from his alleged retirement which is inevetable sooner or later because of his age, compared to the preferences he can get playing a role of a "martyr of conscience". Articles in respected Western magazines, lections in prestigious Western universities, maybe even full-time job in one of them - isn't the game worth the candles?
Compare this with the case of Kharkov's ex-governer Dobkin who is put under home arrest and against whome Kiev's power incriminates "encroachment on territorial integrity and inviolability of Ukraine, committed by a representative of the authorities», which is a crime that if proved means up to 5 years of imprisonment. All because of his words about federalization.

Originally Posted by edvalais

You think Zubov will return to work on Monday - I don't. We can't both be right. Let's wait and see.

I don't care about Zubov. He is a man from the "elite", his "standard of life" is incomparably higher than that of simple Russian citizens as I am. So he can care of himself without my help.
...and I will be the most friendly, kind and mild chap you can found on this forum.

Напоминаю всем, что неуважительное обращение друг с другом в дискуссиях здесь неприемлемо и против правил форума, каковы бы ни были политические позиции оппонента.

Moving on from petty squabbles... I invite Russians on this forum to consider the impact Putin's adventure in Crimea is having on your economy. Have a look at this weekend's Financial Times for a full analysis:

- yields on Russia's 10-year government bonds are now at 9.7% (compared with less than 8% in January)
- the rouble is at 36.7 to the dollar, almost a record low
- Russian equities have lost 20% since the start of the year
- $55bn in private capital could flow out of Russia this quarter alone

Add to this the very real risk that foreign banks will cut credit to Russian companies, and you get the general picture. Sad, dangerous times.

Originally Posted by edvalais

Moving on from petty squabbles... I invite Russians on this forum to consider the impact Putin's adventure in Crimea is having on your economy. Have a look at this weekend's Financial Times for a full analysis:

- yields on Russia's 10-year government bonds are now at 9.7% (compared with less than 8% in January)
- the rouble is at 36.7 to the dollar, almost a record low
- Russian equities have lost 20% since the start of the year
- $55bn in private capital could flow out of Russia this quarter alone

Add to this the very real risk that foreign banks will cut credit to Russian companies, and you get the general picture. Sad, dangerous times.

Это офф-топик. Если хочешь, открой новую тему.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Это офф-топик. Если хочешь, открой новую тему.

This week's turmoil in Russia's stock and capital markets is a direct consequence of her desire to annexe Crimea. It is a reaction to the possibility of economic sanctions against Russia. I don't see how this is off-topic, sorry. However, if you don't wish people to discuss the consequences of "Crimea joining the Russian Federation" (the title of this thread) then, being a good boy, I will desist.