Thread: London terror attack, yo. :O

Then you would have found that Jesus had taught respect for women (unheard of until then) while 700 years later Mohamed is treating women like animals.

Have these women complained to you in person? According to many surveys, Arabic women are among the happiest in the world. Perhaps Mohamed taught men to be men, not sissies, and treat their women as women? Maybe that's the reason why so many of them are happy in their marriages?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Have these women complained to you in person? According to many surveys, Arabic women are among the happiest in the world. Perhaps Mohamed taught men to be men, not sissies, and treat their women as women? Maybe that's the reason why so many of them are happy in their marriages?

It's not good when faiths get into a pi**ing contest. But, I think there are many established accounts of severe abuse and neglect of Muslim women by their husbands, fathers, society. Afghanistan, Iraq, as examples. "Beneath the Veil" by Saira Shah (from an Afghani background), which details many neglects and abuses of Muslim women in that society. Iraq...I won't even go into some of the horror stories, but I know a few Muslim men from the Middle East, and yes, they've verified that some of these things did happen. And no, these women are not happy, but they are unable to do anything about it, or even communicate because of their husbands' draconian treatment.

But it's not the Muslim faith...anymore than abuses of Christian women are part of the Christian faith. There are men, and cultures, that develop what we in the West would consider an abusive nature. Lack of medical treatment, refusal of books or an education, physical abuse. There are men who do bad things, and men who do good things. In every culture, and in every religion.

The men who do good things are often inspired to do good by their faith and their holy texts. The men who do bad things often try to find some justification in, or twist the meanings of, their holy texts, to relieve their guilt, or persuade/propogandize/control others.

The Muslim men I know would never consider doing some of the abuses seen elsewhere, or perhaps interpreted from the Quran. They respect their wives and treat them with dignity and love. They are good men. And, there are good Christian men also. Just as there are unfortunately bad men, from every faith and from no faith.

Maybe the most enlightened view of respecting and honoring women came from an obscure faith, that grew out of ideas of Hinduism, Christianity, and Islam...women became equals, and given the same respect as men...Sikhism. Over 500 years ago.

Can we get back to language study now??

Originally Posted by Dobry

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Can we get back to language study now??

Study language on the other threads, this thread is supposed to be about the London Bombing.

Originally Posted by DDT

Study language on the other threads, this thread is supposed to be about the London Bombing.

Sorry, DDT. Just trying to inject a bit of light-heartedness into an otherwise painful thread. No disrespect intended.
I'm going to my local for a pint.

And where did I say that, DDT? That quote's been fabricated!

I'm sorry, Dobry, you must have been misinformed - Arab women are the happiest in the world in their marriages. Arab men know how to look after their wives. The West's got a lot to learn from them.

Well chingas du madra mate! I have no flamin' idea how that quote got attributed to you, the venerable Vendingmachine. Must have been a glitch down at the headquarters of Master Russian as it is quite obviously a Dobry quote.
Please accept my sincerest apologies for the mixup. I am already sending you six lovely Middle Eastern ladies ( who are used to first class treatment) as a gift who are experts in the art of apology. So, there will be no need to have your ex KGB turned mafia buddies pay me a visit now, will there?

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I'm sorry, Dobry, you must have been misinformed - Arab women are the happiest in the world in their marriages. Arab men know how to look after their wives. The West's got a lot to learn from them.

Time for another pint! Must have walked into the twilight zone...or a Dali painting...actually no!!!

It's a Goya firing squad!

Originally Posted by DDT

... as it is quite obviously a Dobry quote.

A добрый quote! Oh, thank you, DDT. That is so kind of you to say so.

Originally Posted by DDT

Ok, I’m Back.
I am well aware of all the quotes you gave, Pioner. I could have told you not to waste your time using coming back at me with those Old Testament quotes. They have little to do with Christian doctrine compared to Koran doctrine.

Well, you said that Bible does not contain such statements. Is the Old Testament not a part of Bible?

And I can see that you are an expert in Koran and interpretation of it. What part of Koran contains any mentioning about raping women?

You probably did not read my quotas carefully, there are a lot of statements there where God APPROVE raping.

Pioner, could you please give me the verses in the Bible where "there are a lot of statements there where God APPROVE raping." I'm interested in reading them.

Sure, Pioner there is much killing in the Bible but there is nothing mentioned about the "conversion of infidels by the sword" in it, or in your quotes. Those are the words that originally inspired out debate. The Israelis were the only people required at that time to obey God. They kept to themselves and did not spread out of the small piece of land along "the fertile crescent".

Yes they killed people inside their own lands. The instance with the Israelite men and the Moabite women was when one where the Israelites had partaken in Moabite ceremonies of the murder of babies by burning them alive in a sacrifice to Baal. That’s why the Israelites who partook in this and the entire town was destroyed.

The quotes from the Koran clearly advocate the killing of Christians and Jews, by name. Mohammed was kicked out of Mecca so he went to Medina. There he preached in the streets. The Jews who already peacefully lived there mocked him and his sayings. He made war on Mecca and was repelled so he made a peace treaty with them which he later broke with a sneak attack and killed many Meccans. He went to war with Jews in Medina . The Jews fled to another city. Mohammed asked them to send a peace delegate to Medina. On their way back to Medina Mohammed had them slaughtered In the Koran Mohammed defends his treachery by saying it is acceptable to do this to “unbelievers”. All I am saying is that is easy to see how some Muslims want to plant bombs in London after reading Koran doctrine. Whereas the christian Bible tells us to "Love your enemies".

I don't see anywhere in your Quotes where God condoned rape. Again, your quotes of rape are bogus. You quoted from Isaiah in one instance. It was telling of what would eventually be done to the House of Israel after they had been captured by Babylonians and set free by the Medes. This actually happened after Isaiah wrote it. The other is telling what will be done by others to the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the future. Much of the Bible is simply someones writing of Israeli history which includes good things and bad things. And there was much bad! God allowed customs of the day to prevail. In instances he allowed for the capture of the women after a battle. But there were restrictions placed on the Israelites, unlike other peoples of the day. The women were not to be taken as slaves. They were treated as wifes and were not to be humiliated any further.

The Koran is written in a different way by one man over relatively short time. Much of it the sayings of Mohammed. It reads more like a war manual.

Originally Posted by Haksaw

Pioner, could you please give me the verses in the Bible where "there are a lot of statements there where God APPROVE raping." I'm interested in reading them.

Well, I already did give quotes on the 3rd page, I believe, here them one of them again:

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

and this one is about sex slavery (which is a form of raping I believe):

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Please, do not bring all that nonsense that it is Old Testament, Old Testament is a part of Bible.

Your quote from Zechariah is not an order from God. It is Simply a prophecy of future events.

Your quote from Exodus is Mosaic Law for Israelites only. It is not about rape. It is against Ten Commandments to rape or even have sex outside of marriage.
In that day it was quite common for people to sell themselves into "slavery" . Though it was not what we would call slavery today. It was sevantude in exchange for protection. The fact that an Israelite man must treat his servant girl with the full benefits of a wife if he marries her, is a step above the customs of non-Isrealites.

Originally Posted by DDT

Sure, Pioner there is much killing in the Bible but there is nothing mentioned about the "conversion of infidels by the sword" in it, or in your quotes. Those are the words that originally inspired out debate. The Israelis were the only people required at that time to obey God. They kept to themselves and did not spread out of the small piece of land along "the fertile crescent".

Well, I gave them before and you answered that you already knew them, and you already forgotten? Man, it should tough for you to learn languages with such short term memory problems. Here coupla of them again:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

The quotes from the Koran clearly advocate the killing of Christians and Jews, by name.

Please, give me quota from Koran supporting what you said. I never heard of such thing in Koran.

Mohammed was kicked out of Mecca so he went to Medina. There he preached in the streets. The Jews who already peacefully lived there mocked him and his sayings. He made war on Mecca and was repelled so he made a peace treaty with them which he later broke with a sneak attack and killed many Meccans. He went to war with Jews in Medina . The Jews fled to another city. Mohammed asked them to send a peace delegate to Medina. On their way back to Medina Mohammed had them slaughtered In the Koran Mohammed defends his treachery by saying it is acceptable to do this to “unbelievers”.

All I am saying is that is easy to see how some Muslims want to plant bombs in London after reading Koran doctrine. Whereas the christian Bible tells us to "Love your enemies".

What book people who droped A-bombs on Japan read?

I don't see anywhere in your Quotes where God condoned rape. Again, your quotes of rape are bogus. You quoted from Isaiah in one instance. It was telling of what would eventually be done to the House of Israel after they had been captured by Babylonians and set free by the Medes. This actually happened after Isaiah wrote it. The other is telling what will be done by others to the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the future. Much of the Bible is simply someones writing of Israeli history which includes good things and bad things. And there was much bad! God allowed customs of the day to prevail. In instances he allowed for the capture of the women after a battle. But there were restrictions placed on the Israelites, unlike other peoples of the day. The women were not to be taken as slaves. They were treated as wifes and were not to be humiliated any further.

Taken a woman as a wife without asking her is a rape. Did God change with time? It was OK to him those days and something changed now?

The Koran is written in a different way by one man over relatively short time. Much of it the sayings of Mohammed. It reads more like a war manual.

Who was the man who wrote Koran? You are such a laughable expert of Koran, the best I ever contacted to.

Originally Posted by DDT

Your quote from Zechariah is not an order from God. It is Simply a prophecy of future events.

Your quote from Exodus is Mosaic Law for Israelites only. It is not about rape. It is against Ten Commandments to rape or even have sex outside of marriage.
In that day it was quite common for people to sell themselves into "slavery" . Though it was not what we would call slavery today. It was sevantude in exchange for protection. The fact that an Israelite man must treat his servant girl with the full benefits of a wife if he marries her, is a step above the customs of non-Isrealites.

what is "prophecy" in your understanding of this word?

In prophecy God is telling his people what will happento them. Or what it will be like to be living in the time that the prophecy will take place. This is not something that the people are ordered to do. This is what will happen to the people if they continue down the path they have chosen.

The House of Isreal ( the Ten Norethern Tribes) had turned away from God and even elected their own king. God was telling them what would happen to them, in one instance. That their women would be raped by invaders from Babylon and that the people would be carried away into slavery. He was telling them that if they left his covenant with him they would be leaving his protection from invaders also.

Originally Posted by DDT

In prophecy God is telling his people what will happento them. Or what it will be like to be living in the time that the prophecy will take place. This is not something that the people are ordered to do. This is what will happen to the people if they continue down the path they have chosen.

The House of Isreal ( the Ten Norethern Tribes) had turned away from God and even elected their own king. God was telling them what would happen to them, in one instance. That their women would be raped by invaders from Babylon and that the people would be carried away into slavery. He was telling them that if they left his covenant with him they would be leaving his protection from invaders also.

yep. I got it. It is like mafia boss speaking. "You know, if you do not pay me that contribution, I am afraid I will not be able to protect your people, to protect you famaly, and horrible things can happen, like strangers broke in your house, raping your wife and daughters etc."

Right?

Originally Posted by Pioner

yep. I got it. It is like mafia boss speaking. "You know, if you do not pay me that contribution, I am afraid I will not be able to protect your people, to protect you famaly, and horrible things can happen, like strangers broke in your house, raping your wife and daughters etc."
Right?

Not exactly. Your mafia boss is going to send those rapers to the house and God is not.
You got the whole idea wrong. Sorry.

Originally Posted by CTPEKO3A

Not exactly. Your mafia boss is going to send those rapers to the house and God is not.
You got the whole idea wrong. Sorry.

How do you know? Both about God and mafia boss?