Thread: London terror attack, yo. :O

Everyone has their own version of history, haven't they? And sadly it looks to me like most people are condemned to always see the world in terms of 'them' and 'us' whether defined by religion or nationality. It's not surprising the world is awash with human blood while people are trapped into these narrow ways of defining themselves. The smallest misunderstanding or incident can snowball into a major conflict when different communities regard each other with such suspicion, distrust, and ignorance of each other's common experiences. I'm not posting on this topic anymore either, it's just too depressing

Exellent posts Партизан. I was appauled at the way Serbs were portraied on western media. The Serbs had always been friendly towards the USA. You were allied with us against Hitler. Then one day President Clinton annouces that he is going to bomb you. CNN reported only what they wanted us to believe. Most American people had never even heard of your country and believed whatever they were told. I was disgusted. You are right. You have been subjected to a double standard.

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Pioner

Do you want I give you quotas from Bible declaring exactly the same thing? About killing unbelievers and wrong believers? Or that raping a woman is totally acceptable thing? There are many of them in the Bible.

You're stepping in a deep hole here buddy boy. Yes I do want you to give quotes. And while you're looking for them I will have time to become fluent in Arabic and Chinese because you won't find any.

Well, what always amazed me is that so many religios people are totally ignorant about their own religion. Here we go:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

here is the exact quotes I told you, will you consider Bible as evil as Koran now?

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Here is a nice ones:

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Here is murdering all population of a town who worship to wrong God (new borns included, I believe):

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Here is more on killing followers of other religions:

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

Here is about killing helpless children and raping women:

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

is that enough?

ooops, sorry, I promised to give quotes about rapings:

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

Sex slavery approved by Bible:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

And Gods approves raping again:

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Find similar quotes in Koran for raping. Just to equal that out. I am not sure if you find any. But I did not study Koran as deeply as you did.

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

Originally Posted by DDT

It has been reported that muslim communities had prior knowledge of the 9 11 attack. Just one example: A week before the attack one muslim kid, in a school in New York told his teacher and class, as he looked out the window towards The Twin Towers, “See these buildings? I tell you they won’t be there in a week.” After the attack his teacher went to the FBI but the boys father had already disappeared unexpectedly back to the Middle East.

Could you please direct me to the source for this information. Just casually saying 'It has been reported...' isn't good enough for a story like that.

I can give sources for DDT, I hope he appratiate my help. I did not find anything about arab kid, but I personally heard stories about Bulgarians who worked in WTC and none of them came to work on 9/11, Jewish the same way, and just now I found about cabs in NY:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/israel.htm
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/taxi.htm

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Pioner

[
who? Iraqies were killing americans? on 9/11, or there was other terroristic attacks I am not aware of? Most of hijackes on 9/11 were saudies, why we attacked Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia?

.
Who? Muslims. Muslims have been killing us who are not Muslims for long before 911. Suicide bombers are quite common in Isreal or did you forget? It has always only been a matter of time before bombs went off in Britain, Australia and USA.

Oh, them, muslims. Well, let's look into history. Shall we start with Crusades? When they slaughtered whole muslim cities? Or with Afganistan, where them, Russian Christians were killing muslim? Or with Chechnya, starting in 1991 when they murdered whole vilages? Or shall we remember 1945 when Christians dropped 2 nuclear bombs on resident areas of large Japanese cities murdering hundreds of thousands inocent people at once?

Or British invasion into India, where Christians were killing thousands of muslims?

Or shall we remember a little bit about torturing people in inquisition in Wesrn Europe?

Not that I say that muslims are good and christians are bad. But if we categorize people like that, by their religion, I am afraid, no one look nice.

Now there are more volunteers to join Al Queda. They go to England, Europe, USA and kill inocent people. then we go back and kill not those who kill our people, but just inocent people as well. What is that? Holy Revenge?

It's war . What's your solution? ......or did you just want to use this London Bombing as an opportunity to bash Bush?

Its time for us to get over political differences and find a way to put an end to terrorism.[/quote]

The way you propagade is totally wrong. We invaded Iraq for no reason. We got pay back, and terrorism will increase if we do not stop and go other countries.

Originally Posted by Pioner

[ terrorism will increase if we do not stop and go other countries.

That is the only thing that you said that makes any sense. The rest is not worth responding to. I don't have time time anyway. I will be away from a computer for a few days.

However I think that the west should completely leave the Middle East as soon as Iraq is somewhat stable. I mean completely get the hell out of their affairs.

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

You said earlier you agreed with DDT. Do you still agree with DDT and his opinions on Muslims in general? I'm afraid that many people in America do, I think people with those views are making the wrong decisions in these difficult times.

What??

No, I fear you misunderstand what I tried to say. Or I did not make it clear. I agree with DDT that the terrorists will kill anyone, for no reason, no matter how nice we treat Muslims. Terrorists don't care. And there could have been Muslims killed in these bombings...just as there were many Muslims killed in the 9/11 Twin Towers attack. So, I don't think the terrorists care about the Muslim majority.

Muslims in general? I'm not sure what you mean. I do not think the Al-Queda terrorists are true Muslims. They are crazy sociopathic/brainwashed zealots, similar to other militant factions that have popped up in most religions during history. Name me one major faith that has not had a militant faction, or a group of crazies, in human history.

And regardless of what is heard on the Press (I don't believe everything the American press says)...I think most Americans are comfortable with Muslims and the Muslim faith. We should be, because many Americans ARE Muslim.

Most Americans are educated and smart enough to know that the terrorists DO NOT represent Muslims or Islam.

Anymore than the the Ku Klux Klan represents Christianity (which is a very peaceful faith...trust me, it truly is about peace and kindness). The KKK does NOT represent Christians. LOL

There are intelligent Americans that think for themselves.

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by Pioner

[ terrorism will increase if we do not stop and go other countries.

That is the only thing that you said that makes any sense. The rest is not worth responding to. I don't have time time anyway. I will be away from a computer for a few days.

However I think that the west should completely leave the Middle East as soon as Iraq is somewhat stable. I mean completely get the hell out of their affairs.

On first place we should not be there at all. And yes, we need to leave.

But what about Bible? Or you learned Chinese already?

Pioner...

You're quoting old Judaic Law...but some of it is out of context.

Interestingly you're not quoting anything from the New Testament...which is what Christianity is all about...and which releases humans completely from the old Law you're quoting.

Not sure why you're Bible/Christian bashing, but I think I understand that you're countering DDT's observations of the Quran laws, in a fair debate.

Anyway, no need to, because I think you're point has been made. And I hope you don't believe literally that the Judeo-Christian God approves of any of the activities you've illustrated.

What happened in London yesterday was awful. When I heard about it, shortly after I woke up, I was deeply saddened. These terrorists should be stoped. They have NO right to kill a bunch of innocent people to spread whatever it is that they want to impose on people. Hopefully England won't meet their new demands to stop fighting terrorism or else...

Dobry, I am a non-believer in any religion, so Christianity and Islam look quite similar to me.

I understand that the main one is New Testament, but the old one is still a part of Holly Bible. But I can find some "nice" quotas from New Testament as well, not that extrime, but still not quite acceptable by modern life.

I do respect religious people, regardless their religion, as long as they do not try to convert me, or as long as they say that they are better then other religion people or atheists. And I interacted a lot with both Christians and Muslims. Not with many Budda people.

Pioner,

I understand. And I understand your counter-argument to DDT. He "threw down the gauntlet", and so you answered logically, and with reason.

But, you will get no conversion attempt from me! *laughs out loud*
That's another principle for me...I don't proselytize. Everyone has the freedom to believe (or not believe) what they wish.

But I will defend my faith when questions are raised in an argument. I hope you understand.

I would be a worthless minister/priest! *laughs*

Dobry, just respect to you.

Pioner,

Thanks. And respect to you.


And "Friends, Romans, Countrymen"....I think perhaps this is a good time to end this thread. It has grown way beyond the initial thoughts of the first poster.

That is, about the bombing, and feeling bad for the victims. I think we all feel bad for the people who were injured and died.

Yes, I agree, it is a good time to close the topic.

I came too late for some real action

So come on everybody: Koombaya, my lord! Koombaya!

Run while you can.
-Runs-

Ok, I’m Back.
I am well aware of all the quotes you gave, Pioner. I could have told you not to waste your time using coming back at me with those Old Testament quotes. They have little to do with Christian doctrine compared to Koran doctrine.
Firstly, Dobry is correct when saying that your quotes come from Mosaic Law (not Judaic because Jews didn’t exist apart from the Tribe of Judah at that time) and many, if taken in context, make a lot of sense. The others you quoted actually are prophecies set in a future time, some of which have already happened. And prophecies are simply telling people what will happen. Same thing for one of your rape scenarios. It was a prophecy and not the bible telling us to rape. The other one about rape does not condone rape but does exactly the opposite. A girl who had been raped in that day and age would never have found a husband. She would have lived a lonely and shunned life. The Mosaic Law forcing the rapist to marry the girl was a victory for her. You don’t know the first thing about that which you have posted. These laws, at the time that they were written, were extraordinary and they were humane, written for a hard people in a barbaric time. These laws were also for a people who had submitted themselves to them by a covenant and were not to be subjected on those who lived out side of Israel whereas, Islam was to be spread by the sword to all lands. Israel was given specific borders and God did not tell Israelites to spread their religion outside their land. Those inside Israel that were destroyed to the last child (everything that breathes) were specific cases and not the general. These people were burning alive their babies and children in rituals, among other savage practices. Perhaps 3,000 years ago these drastic measures of annihilation just needed to be taken in order to set up a civilized people. It seems pretty harsh to me but we don’t have all the details anymore. We don’t know what life was truly like so long ago. Who’s to say, now? In any case it should not be taken that God was ordering his people to convert with the sword as is the case in Islam.
And Jesus never condoned any of this but Mohammed did:-

Mohammed, at age Twenty-five married his boss, a forty year old rich woman named Khadijeh, after she proposed to him. They had four daughters together but we know a lot about one daughter named Fatemeh. When Khadijeh died Mohammad at age fifty-six asked to marry Ayesha, daughter of his friend and first follower Abobakr. She was just a seven years old baby.
Abobakr requested from Mohammed to wait till she reached the age nine before consummating their marriage. So at age fifty-Eight the great “Prophet”, raped a nine-year-old child. This is a sick act of an animal today and it was back then also.
That is the reason for marriage age for girls age is nine years old (and sometimes younger in Islam).
Mohammad even asked his own adopted son, Zaid Ebn Hares, to divorce his wife, Zeinab, so that he could marry her. When the members of tribe protested this marriage, because the daughter-in-law was considered like one's daughter, Mohammed answered that he received a revelation from God, that "A Moslem man cannot adopt another man's child." Hence Hares was not his real son, therefore he could marry his adopted son's wife.
When Mohammad and his wife Khadijeh adopted Zaid they were not Moslem. Prophet must obey God's word and therefore, Zaid is not his son and Zeinab is not his daughter-in-law (according to Mohammad). That is why adoption is prohibited in Islam.



If you really wanted to slam Christianity or equate it to Islam you should have been looking for quotes in the New Testament since this is the basis for Christianity. But you did not look there did you? Then you would have found that Jesus had taught respect for women (unheard of until then) while 700 years later Mohamed is treating women like animals.
You would have found that Jesus taught to turn away from violence when possible by “turning the other cheek”, whereas Mohamed 700 years later was still killing anyone he did not like.

And your ridiculous equation of terrorism and the Crusades? Islam had already killed their way all across the Middle East and then up into Europe and you are upset because Europeans fought back with crusades? Duh!

Now, in the year approx. 30 AD a teaching spread across the known world teaching respect for women, monogamy, do unto others as you would have them do to you, help the poor and give help to strangers who are in need. These were radical ideas back then, spread by Christians many of whom were killed for their efforts.

Now I’ll contrast this with the teaching of Mohammed 700 years later (when he should have known better} This is from Koran. It is a war manual from start to finish, provoking Muslims to kill Christians and Jews.



"Forbidden to you are...married women, except those you own as slaves." (Surah 4:20-, 24-)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliate by breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosques of God..." (Surah 9:17)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
“for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22)
It is acceptable to break treaties and obligations with pagans and make war on them whenever strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3).
http://craom.net/comparedtothebible.htm
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftrut ... anual.html

Koooooooombayaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!