Thread: Why I love (and hate) dating Russian men (article)

Originally Posted by Deborski

I understand what you're saying IT-ogo, but the problem is that you are completely cutting off the roots of feminism and why it arose in the first place. Feminism did not come to exist because men were being oppressed. It came to be, and remains, because women were and are oppressed by men. The fact is that feminism IS about equal rights, and anyone who calls themselves a feminist should understand this. I don't know what bizarre brand of feminism has made its way to Russia and caused all men everywhere to despise the very word itself, but the feminism I embrace has nothing to do with women being "superior" and everything to do with women being "equal."

I tell you what: On the day when women actually have achieved equal rights everywhere in the world, maybe we can stop calling it the "feminist" movement but until then, that is what it is, because that is how it started.

You know why feminism can not be about equal rights? Because it is about equal rights of women but not about equal rights of anyone else. All humans are equal but some are more equal than others.

Feminist movement in the West nowadays is an ideological socio-political machine with giant funding, organizational structure, many people professionally involved... Such kind of machine is never able to admit "one day" that the goal is already achieved (even in a particular sphere, locally) because in fact it does not care about the so called goal. It exist to grow producing more and more nonsensial outcome and try to spread its influence to all spheres of human life even where it is absurd or even disasterous. That is what was marxism/communism in USSR. And that is what will always happen when people try to replace morals with ideology. Ideology never cares about particular people, it makes a generalization instead and ready for anything in the name of that generalization.

Roots? Yes, there are roots. A problem of mistreating women in many societies? Yes, it exists and it is a big problem. The ineffective usage of human resources due to gender limitations? Yes, it exists. But feminist ideological machine will never help against it as communist ideological machine never helped against social injustice. The morals will do, not an ideology.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You know why feminism can not be about equal rights? Because it is about equal rights of women but not about equal rights of anyone else. All humans are equal but some are more equal than others.

I completely disagree with you here. That is not my interpretation of feminism at all.

Feminist movement in the West nowadays is an ideological socio-political machine with giant funding, organizational structure, many people professionally involved... Such kind of machine is never able to admit "one day" that the goal is already achieved (even in a particular sphere, locally) because in fact it does not care about the so called goal. It exist to grow producing more and more nonsensial outcome and try to spread its influence to all spheres of human life even where it is absurd or even disasterous. That is what was marxism/communism in USSR. And that is what will always happen when people try to replace morals with ideology. Ideology never cares about particular people, it makes a generalization instead and ready for anything in the name of that generalization.

Yes, there had to be some actual working movement, or else feminism would have died with the suffragists. But what you are doing here is painting feminism like it is just some horrific movement against all of humanity, and you completely refuse to acknowledge the already existing patriarchal system which is in place in both of our societies. You act as if men are the victims here - but the fact of the matter is that men have dominated society for thousands of years, and as a result of that women were caged, beaten, enslaved and treated as property - and in fact in some countries they still are being treated in this manner completely legally. The fact that some of our societies have laws, to greater or lesser degrees, protecting women is because they NEEDED protection and they still do. If not for the feminist movement, how exactly would these laws have been put into place? It certainly did not happen out of the goodness of the hearts of all the husbands who suddenly decided to unclip their spouses' wings... A strong movement was needed, and that was feminism.

I think that you and I have fundamentally different views of feminism, and I am sorry that you see it as such a negative and evil thing. Perhaps the world prior to feminism was better? When men could legally beat their wives and rape them. When women were not allowed to own property or divorce their abusive husbands or even say "no" if they didn't want to be forced into a pregnancy.

From the way some people scream about the evils of feminism you would think that MEN are being forced to work for 70% of what women are routinely paid, and are not allowed into certain types of work because "men can't handle stress," and that MEN are constantly objectified as sex objects in movies and television - with absolutely no purpose except as eye candy for women, and that MEN are being raped, imprisoned, forced to have babies against their will, etc, etc, etc. But the very stark reality here is that men are merely being made UNCOMFORTABLE because women are stepping into their "territory." Their lives are not being destroyed. But yes, they are losing some of their power, and I suppose that must sting a bit.

Roots? Yes, there are roots. A problem of mistreating women in many societies? Yes, it exists and it is a big problem. The ineffective usage of human resources due to gender limitations? Yes, it exists. But feminist ideological machine will never help against it as communist ideological machine never helped against social injustice. The morals will do, not an ideology.

And what will "help" it? Denial? Continuing with the status quo? I don't see a lot of men lining up to battle for equal pay for women, or make sure women are treated fairly in the workplace. Although I do see a lot of men making jokes about our bodies, and about sex, and about how stupid women everywhere are, or how greedy, or how evil. I see women downgraded a lot by men who claim that they "love" women while winking at their buddies and adding "as long as they shut their mouths."

A stand had to be made. That stand was made. It was called feminism, and whether you like what it's called or not, does not change what it is about. I expect the howling and indignation of wounded males to continue well into the next century, but thankfully by then I will be long gone and won't have to go on listening to it.

I guess what it comes down to, is you yourself are not female, and so maybe you have no idea exactly what it feels like to be completely objectified and spoken about as if you are not really human but a walking, talking sex toy with no mind, no dreams, no opinions or thoughts or feelings. I've experienced this all of my life and all I can say is no human being should have to go through that, male or female. So the day I see males being subjected to all of the things I described I will be happy to take up their cause under the broad banner of feminism. I am sure we can find room for the persecuted men in our cause.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I guess what it comes down to, is you yourself are not female, and so maybe you have no idea exactly what it feels like to be completely objectified and spoken about as if you are not really human but a walking, talking sex toy with no mind, no dreams, no opinions or thoughts or feelings. I've experienced this all of my life and all I can say is no human being should have to go through that, male or female. So the day I see males being subjected to all of the things I described I will be happy to take up their cause under the broad banner of feminism. I am sure we can find room for the persecuted men in our cause.

It is not about equality of rights. In fact, it is not about equality at all.
I agree to it-ogo here, trying to solve any ethic problems of the society with aggressive ideological brainwashing does always lead to some kind of gulag.