Thread: Why I love (and hate) dating Russian men (article)

The article has nothing to do with Russianness of men. It is about the contradiction between sexual attractiveness and other advantages.

Yeah, you can see TRENDS, in nationalities and what the men are like. But that's all.

And I think a programmer living in central Moscow would be a quite different person from an artist in Vladivostok or a policeman in a village in Siberia.

There's probably less of the (to me, unattractive) metrosexual stereotype in Russia though.
Personally I prefer to wear the skirt in the relationship, so to speak.
Men who feel the need to show off their gourmet cooking skills, discuss celebrity gossip or fret on how to find the perfect shade of cushions for the sofa are not for me!

Based on my experiences in Ukraine and Belarus, I give ex-USSR area men 8 stars out of 10 on the European gentleman chart. They will help a woman with a heavy bag, and they will not slam the door in your face. However they are not extreme flirts and do not try the Casonova tactics the minute they see you, like some Southern Europeans will.
I personally like their style, on the whole.

But my impression is that there is a lot of infidelity and men who behave like pigs towards their wives. I met several women who had to divorce their husbands because they were drinking and being unfaithful and they got to a point where they didn't want to put up with it anymore. Of course, I only heard the woman's side of the story, but I don't see how excessive drinking and infidelity can be excused.

I agree with some of what you say, Red Fox,

But this statement disturbs me:

That all is not about patriarchal society, alpha males or Russian mentality. That is about здравый смысл.
Don't get in a sauna with strangers, if you don't want to be raped.
Don't mess with gangsters.
Don't walk at night with a person you couldn't completely trust.
Don't tell your phone number to odd people.
Simple and resonable rules, whatever country you live in.

It sounds naive. And why is it always the victim's fault when things happen? For example, not all women who are raped "put themselves in the situation." In fact many of them do not. Men will rape old women coming come from church. Men will rape women wearing burkas covering their face and legs. Men will rape women in any situation, at any time, without any reason except to humiliate another human being.

So, sure, you can follow these "common sense rules" all you want, but shit still happens. Little babies get raped. Do we blame the baby for being "in the situation?"

At some point, men are going to have to take some responsibility for the violence they have inflicted, and stop blaming the women for everything bad that happens. In America, when women are raped, they are never believed. The police assume that the victim must be lying because she is female (and women lie more often than men, apparently), so they question the victim harder than they question the accused rapist.

The rapist needs to be blamed. Not the victim. And I don't care if she met the man in a sauna, or in a bar, or after church while she was walking her dog. The MAN chose to rape. He chose to behave that way. He put HIMSELF "in the situation."

I understand that anti-feminist sentiments are strong right now in Russia. If I even mention the word "feminism" I am likely to encounter a tsunami of rage from some of the Russian guys! It reminds me of the "backlash" movement America went through in the 80's, when men fought back against feminism.

My understanding of feminism has not altered from the very first definition you provided above:

As far as I can remember, feminism is about equality of rights, not about being unmannered jerks. Feminism is a result of development of our civilization: the same civilization that teaches us to be kind and respectful to each other. So gentleman's attitude does not conflict with feminism and is not "patriarchal".
In fact, any educated reasonable person in the modern world is a feminist "by default". We all grown up in the same cultural context: kindness, honesty, human rights, science, arts etc. So if a person smart enough, he/she is able to decide by him/herself that equality of rights is a Good Idea. Even if he/she has never listened the word "feminism".

My view still reflects that and I do not see where feminism turned into the "monster" you referenced above. I do think that feminism is being blamed for a variety of societal ills, because there is so much anger against women. But feminism is becoming a tired excuse, a worn out old scapegoat. Maybe we should fix some of society's problems and stop fixating on "feminism" and just try to treat each other as human beings. I'm just tired of all the whining and kvetching. Women don't want to clean house. So the guys should just get over it already, and learn to pick up after their lazy selves. Or hire a maid. Last time I checked, my pudenda didn't come equipped with a mop

As for the woman in the story, sure she could have made different choices. She sounds young, maybe in her 20's. I would not want to live with any of the men I loved in my 20's. Maybe she just hasn't moved beyond the black/white thinking yet. I dunno. I can understand some of her frustrations, certainly. It's hard being single, especially for an intelligent woman.

Originally Posted by Deborski

It sounds naive. And why is it always the victim's fault when things happen?

It is not the victim's fault. It is just some kind of misunderstanding here. Maybe I should be more clear in my statements, sorry.

I'll draw analogy:
Let's suppose, for example, you were relaxing in a park and when you were leaving it, you had forgotten your phone there. You noticed that and came back in a moment, but your phone had already been stolen. It is not your fault. The fact is a person who stole your phone is a thief from the law's point of view, and he or she should carry punishment by law.
Some weeks later the situation repeated: you left your phone or some other thing in a public place and it were stolen. And some time later it repeated again.
The facts are still the same: some people stole your stuff, so they should be punished. But also we can state there is another fact. The fact is you should probably take more care of your stuff and don't scatter it in public places all the time.

The same is about that woman. It is not her fault that people can be violent, ignorant and so on. But her fault is that instead of thinking about her strategy and taking a few steps in desired direction, she is just complaining and writing "analytical" articles.
Well, I agree, there are lots of ignorant people in Russia. But all those findings on patriarchal society where the same people are gentle and violent at the same time (really?! O_O) is just weird.

Originally Posted by Deborski

My view still reflects that and I do not see where feminism turned into the "monster" you referenced above.

Sometimes people from US and some other countries talk about such kind of problems: men are no longer men, women are no longer women, insane feminism is everywhere and so on. In Russia there are those talks too. So my "monster" is a hyperbole based on those talks. Maybe the monster is true on some small part. (At least, some number of insane feministic people do exist.) But mostly it is just because people don't tend being very responsible when choosing their friends and patrners, I think.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Last time I checked, my pudenda didn't come equipped with a mop

Great aphorism!

Originally Posted by Deborski

As for the woman in the story, sure she could have made different choices. She sounds young, maybe in her 20's. I would not want to live with any of the men I loved in my 20's. Maybe she just hasn't moved beyond the black/white thinking yet. I dunno. I can understand some of her frustrations, certainly. It's hard being single, especially for an intelligent woman.

So I think. Probably it is because of her age. We all have to get through that at certain age.

Originally Posted by RedFox

It is not the victim's fault. It is just some kind of misunderstanding here. Maybe I should be more clear in my statements, sorry.

I'll draw analogy:
Let's suppose, for example, you were relaxing in a park and when you were leaving it, you had forgotten your phone there. You noticed that and came back in a moment, but your phone had already been stolen. It is not your fault. The fact is a person who stole your phone is a thief from the law's point of view, and he or she should carry punishment by law.
Some weeks later the situation repeated: you left your phone or some other thing in a public place and it were stolen. And some time later it repeated again.
The facts are still the same: some people stole your stuff, so they should be punished. But also we can state there is another fact. The fact is you should probably take more care of your stuff and don't scatter it in public places all the time.

The same is about that woman. It is not her fault that people can be violent, ignorant and so on. But her fault is that instead of thinking about her strategy and taking a few steps in desired direction, she is just complaining and writing "analytical" articles.
Well, I agree, there are lots of ignorant people in Russia. But all those findings on patriarchal society where the same people are gentle and violent at the same time (really?! O_O) is just weird.

I dunno how bizarre it is. In my experience people are often contradictory. Good people can suddenly turn cruel. Cruel people can suddenly do something kind. People are walking contradictions, and so is the society they created. Sure, we should all be careful not to put ourselves in harms way - but (at least here in America) we have a disease called "blame-the-ictim-itis" where victims are the ones being punished instead of those who committed the crimes. And this blaming especially seems to occur when the victim is perceived as "weaker" - ie, female, poor, sick, old, etc. If poor people are robbed, it's their fault for living in a bad neighborhood. If a woman is raped, it's her fault because (insert any reason here). If sick people die, it's their fault because they should have been wealthy enough to pay for health insurance in the first place. I don't know if you have this same trend in Russia, but in America it is very pervasive. For example, in the town of Steubenville, Ohio, a little girl was brutally raped by a gang of football players from the local high school. The entire town came together to rally - not in support of the girl who was raped - but in support of the boys who raped her. They were more worried about the boys` reputations, and the boys` future, than they were about the girl. Meanwhile, the boys not only raped the girl, they video taped the whole thing and posted it on youtube. But there was no outrage about the girl's reputation or future which the boys (giggling the whole time) destroyed. And unfortunately, such events are not just limited to one town but are happening with alarming frequency.

Sometimes people from US and some other countries talk about such kind of problems: men are no longer men, women are no longer women, insane feminism is everywhere and so on. In Russia there are those talks too. So my "monster" is a hyperbole based on those talks. Maybe the monster is true on some small part. (At least, some number of insane feministic people do exist.) But mostly it is just because people don't tend being very responsible when choosing their friends and patrners, I think.

If you are talking about women who hate men, or want to dominate men, then I do not consider such women as feminists. Feminism is not about dominance or control. It's about equality, and that's all it has ever been about. The patriarchy has nothing to do with feminism. The patriarchy has been in place for thousands of years - the idea that society must be led by and controlled by men, and that it must be hierarchical - that there must be one man in charge, and he gets to order all the others around, and they get to order around the ones beneath them and so on, and women are at the bottom of that very long pecking order. Feminism has more to do with a collective society where everyone has equality. That probably sounds dangerously like communism, but Soviet The point I am trying to make here is that if a woman wants to hold on to that hierarchical system by simply placing women in charge instead of men, then she cannot call herself a feminist because she still favors dominance and a patriarchal system.

So I think. Probably it is because of her age. We all have to get through that at certain age.

Yes... and those of us who have survived it should be proud of our scars

Originally Posted by Deborski

As far as I can remember, feminism is about equality of rights, not about being unmannered jerks. Feminism is a result of development of our civilization: the same civilization that teaches us to be kind and respectful to each other. So gentleman's attitude does not conflict with feminism and is not "patriarchal".
In fact, any educated reasonable person in the modern world is a feminist "by default". We all grown up in the same cultural context: kindness, honesty, human rights, science, arts etc. So if a person smart enough, he/she is able to decide by him/herself that equality of rights is a Good Idea. Even if he/she has never listened the word "feminism".

Then don't you think that "feminism" is improper word for what you describe. The word itself contain a reference to women and that is all. The best term for equality of rights is "equality of rights". The best term for being kind and respectful to each other is "being kind and respectful" - and it is not the same as "equality of rights". Putting everything good together and mark it as "feminism" looks more like PR action rather than proper definition. You know there was a widely broadcasted slogan in USSR: "Партия - ум, честь и совесть нашей эпохи." "(Communist) party is the intellect, honor and conscience of our age." So if you also have some intellect, honor and conscience you are a communist by default even if you never listened the word "communism".

But in fact by claiming you are a feminist you just support the brand - and all those people who did different things (good and bad, smart and stupid) in the name of feminism rather then "equality of rights", "being kind and respectful" or whatever. As for me after reading press I have an impression that nowadays (unlike in the first two thirds of XX century) in the name of that brand bad and stupid things are being made more often than good and smart ones.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Then don't you think that "feminism" is improper word for what you describe. The word itself contain a reference to women and that is all. The best term for equality of rights is "equality of rights". The best term for being kind and respectful to each other is "being kind and respectful" - and it is not the same as "equality of rights". Putting everything good together and mark it as "feminism" looks more like PR action rather than proper definition. You know there was a widely broadcasted slogan in USSR: "Партия - ум, честь и совесть нашей эпохи." "(Communist) party is the intellect, honor and conscience of our age." So if you also have some intellect, honor and conscience you are a communist by default even if you never listened the word "communism".

But in fact by claiming you are a feminist you just support the brand - and all those people who did different things (good and bad, smart and stupid) in the name of feminism rather then "equality of rights", "being kind and respectful" or whatever. As for me after reading press I have an impression that nowadays (unlike in the first two thirds of XX century) in the name of that brand bad and stupid things are being made more often than good and smart ones.

I understand what you're saying IT-ogo, but the problem is that you are completely cutting off the roots of feminism and why it arose in the first place. Feminism did not come to exist because men were being oppressed. It came to be, and remains, because women were and are oppressed by men. The fact is that feminism IS about equal rights, and anyone who calls themselves a feminist should understand this. I don't know what bizarre brand of feminism has made its way to Russia and caused all men everywhere to despise the very word itself, but the feminism I embrace has nothing to do with women being "superior" and everything to do with women being "equal."

I tell you what: On the day when women actually have achieved equal rights everywhere in the world, maybe we can stop calling it the "feminist" movement but until then, that is what it is, because that is how it started.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I understand what you're saying IT-ogo, but the problem is that you are completely cutting off the roots of feminism and why it arose in the first place. Feminism did not come to exist because men were being oppressed. It came to be, and remains, because women were and are oppressed by men. The fact is that feminism IS about equal rights, and anyone who calls themselves a feminist should understand this. I don't know what bizarre brand of feminism has made its way to Russia and caused all men everywhere to despise the very word itself, but the feminism I embrace has nothing to do with women being "superior" and everything to do with women being "equal."

I tell you what: On the day when women actually have achieved equal rights everywhere in the world, maybe we can stop calling it the "feminist" movement but until then, that is what it is, because that is how it started.

You know why feminism can not be about equal rights? Because it is about equal rights of women but not about equal rights of anyone else. All humans are equal but some are more equal than others.

Feminist movement in the West nowadays is an ideological socio-political machine with giant funding, organizational structure, many people professionally involved... Such kind of machine is never able to admit "one day" that the goal is already achieved (even in a particular sphere, locally) because in fact it does not care about the so called goal. It exist to grow producing more and more nonsensial outcome and try to spread its influence to all spheres of human life even where it is absurd or even disasterous. That is what was marxism/communism in USSR. And that is what will always happen when people try to replace morals with ideology. Ideology never cares about particular people, it makes a generalization instead and ready for anything in the name of that generalization.

Roots? Yes, there are roots. A problem of mistreating women in many societies? Yes, it exists and it is a big problem. The ineffective usage of human resources due to gender limitations? Yes, it exists. But feminist ideological machine will never help against it as communist ideological machine never helped against social injustice. The morals will do, not an ideology.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You know why feminism can not be about equal rights? Because it is about equal rights of women but not about equal rights of anyone else. All humans are equal but some are more equal than others.

I completely disagree with you here. That is not my interpretation of feminism at all.

Feminist movement in the West nowadays is an ideological socio-political machine with giant funding, organizational structure, many people professionally involved... Such kind of machine is never able to admit "one day" that the goal is already achieved (even in a particular sphere, locally) because in fact it does not care about the so called goal. It exist to grow producing more and more nonsensial outcome and try to spread its influence to all spheres of human life even where it is absurd or even disasterous. That is what was marxism/communism in USSR. And that is what will always happen when people try to replace morals with ideology. Ideology never cares about particular people, it makes a generalization instead and ready for anything in the name of that generalization.

Yes, there had to be some actual working movement, or else feminism would have died with the suffragists. But what you are doing here is painting feminism like it is just some horrific movement against all of humanity, and you completely refuse to acknowledge the already existing patriarchal system which is in place in both of our societies. You act as if men are the victims here - but the fact of the matter is that men have dominated society for thousands of years, and as a result of that women were caged, beaten, enslaved and treated as property - and in fact in some countries they still are being treated in this manner completely legally. The fact that some of our societies have laws, to greater or lesser degrees, protecting women is because they NEEDED protection and they still do. If not for the feminist movement, how exactly would these laws have been put into place? It certainly did not happen out of the goodness of the hearts of all the husbands who suddenly decided to unclip their spouses' wings... A strong movement was needed, and that was feminism.

I think that you and I have fundamentally different views of feminism, and I am sorry that you see it as such a negative and evil thing. Perhaps the world prior to feminism was better? When men could legally beat their wives and rape them. When women were not allowed to own property or divorce their abusive husbands or even say "no" if they didn't want to be forced into a pregnancy.

From the way some people scream about the evils of feminism you would think that MEN are being forced to work for 70% of what women are routinely paid, and are not allowed into certain types of work because "men can't handle stress," and that MEN are constantly objectified as sex objects in movies and television - with absolutely no purpose except as eye candy for women, and that MEN are being raped, imprisoned, forced to have babies against their will, etc, etc, etc. But the very stark reality here is that men are merely being made UNCOMFORTABLE because women are stepping into their "territory." Their lives are not being destroyed. But yes, they are losing some of their power, and I suppose that must sting a bit.

Roots? Yes, there are roots. A problem of mistreating women in many societies? Yes, it exists and it is a big problem. The ineffective usage of human resources due to gender limitations? Yes, it exists. But feminist ideological machine will never help against it as communist ideological machine never helped against social injustice. The morals will do, not an ideology.

And what will "help" it? Denial? Continuing with the status quo? I don't see a lot of men lining up to battle for equal pay for women, or make sure women are treated fairly in the workplace. Although I do see a lot of men making jokes about our bodies, and about sex, and about how stupid women everywhere are, or how greedy, or how evil. I see women downgraded a lot by men who claim that they "love" women while winking at their buddies and adding "as long as they shut their mouths."

A stand had to be made. That stand was made. It was called feminism, and whether you like what it's called or not, does not change what it is about. I expect the howling and indignation of wounded males to continue well into the next century, but thankfully by then I will be long gone and won't have to go on listening to it.

I guess what it comes down to, is you yourself are not female, and so maybe you have no idea exactly what it feels like to be completely objectified and spoken about as if you are not really human but a walking, talking sex toy with no mind, no dreams, no opinions or thoughts or feelings. I've experienced this all of my life and all I can say is no human being should have to go through that, male or female. So the day I see males being subjected to all of the things I described I will be happy to take up their cause under the broad banner of feminism. I am sure we can find room for the persecuted men in our cause.

I think it-ogo's point makes sense. You can take a good thing too far. Like feminism. Once it's shoved down your throat in larger portions than you want, it's no longer attractive. Let everyone have as much of it as they want, and don't force people to go against their biological nature just because of political correctness.

Not males are victims of feminism mainly. Females are - their ability of critical thinking and decision making. And the society as a whole.

Увидел вот статью про дискриминацию в Саудовской Аравии. zyalt: Женская доля

"Superior", "equal". How about "different"? It is not possible to make men and women the same (I hope)

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

"Superior", "equal". How about "different"? It is not possible to make men and women the same (I hope)

Feminism is an excuse for 'men-bashing', bottom line. Anyone with common sense and a touch of courtesy will treat women well and don't want any harm committed but Feminism was a political movement, just another from the West in order to profit and gain 'special power.' Russians are criticized and pressured to go along but many have good sense (well, so far).

I could add a whole lot more here, because I disagree with what most of you are saying. But in the interest of maintaining peace on this forum, I am going to decline to comment more on this subject.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I could add a whole lot more here, because I disagree with what most of you are saying. But in the interest of maintaining peace on this forum, I am going to decline to comment more on this subject.

No offence, Deb. Those were nothing more then my opinions which can be changed easily with new information.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

No offence, Deb. Those were nothing more then my opinions which can be changed easily with new information.

No offense taken, It-ogo... I'm just tired of debating this subject. I don't feel like anyone really hears what I am saying, and so it's kind of like shouting in a hurricane. That doesn't mean I have given up or that I don't have an argument left. I do, and I am capable of expressing it very clearly. I just don't see the point in discussing it here in the language forum. There are plenty of political forums where I dish out my opinion regularly, where it doesn't matter to me if I offend anyone. However, I do care about offending the people here, because this is a kind of community. Controversial subjects like this one can quickly degrade, and well-reasoned opinions can give way to personal insults and attacks. I don't want that to happen, so I will bow out of the discussion now. This is just one of those subjects on which we will have to agree to disagree.

Lastly, I will just add that personally, I am very grateful for the efforts that the suffragists made in my country. Without their sacrifice, I would not have the right to vote, or drive a car, or own a house, or use birth control pills, or divorce my husband. I would not have been able to have an exciting career as a TV reporter, working in a male-dominated field. I was able to live out my dreams and I saw amazing things. Thanks to the feminists, I can look back on my life with a sense of pride and accomplishment. But not every woman gets this chance, because in some parts of society even here in our so-called "land of the free," women are still treated like cattle and they are told that careers are for men, and that they are supposed to stay home and become a broodmare. As long as little girls are raped and towns rally in support of the rapist, as long as men continue to openly degrade women, as long as women are considered inferior and objectified, as long as we are not being recognized as human beings, I will continue to be a feminist and fight the good fight. But part of wisdom, I believe, is knowing where and when to pick your battles. So I am choosing not to debate this topic here.

Originally Posted by Deborski

No offense taken, It-ogo... I'm just tired of debating this subject. I don't feel like anyone really hears what I am saying, and so it's kind of like shouting in a hurricane. That doesn't mean I have given up or that I don't have an argument left. I do, and I am capable of expressing it very clearly. I just don't see the point in discussing it here in the language forum. There are plenty of political forums where I dish out my opinion regularly, where it doesn't matter to me if I offend anyone. However, I do care about offending the people here, because this is a kind of community. Controversial subjects like this one can quickly degrade, and well-reasoned opinions can give way to personal insults and attacks. I don't want that to happen, so I will bow out of the discussion now. This is just one of those subjects on which we will have to agree to disagree.

Lastly, I will just add that personally, I am very grateful for the efforts that the suffragists made in my country. Without their sacrifice, I would not have the right to vote, or drive a car, or own a house, or use birth control pills, or divorce my husband. I would not have been able to have an exciting career as a TV reporter, working in a male-dominated field. I was able to live out my dreams and I saw amazing things. Thanks to the feminists, I can look back on my life with a sense of pride and accomplishment. But not every woman gets this chance, because in some parts of society even here in our so-called "land of the free," women are still treated like cattle and they are told that careers are for men, and that they are supposed to stay home and become a broodmare. As long as little girls are raped and towns rally in support of the rapist, as long as men continue to openly degrade women, as long as women are considered inferior and objectified, as long as we are not being recognized as human beings, I will continue to be a feminist and fight the good fight. But part of wisdom, I believe, is knowing where and when to pick your battles. So I am choosing not to debate this topic here.

Each of us are probably right in his/her own way. Нет формулы, по которой мы могли бы установить абсолютную истину.
I agree to the most of what you have been saying here. Those problems do exist and we (all the people) shouldn't turn away from them.
But some of the methods that are used to "solve" those problems look absolutely inappropriate and unacceptable for me. One cannot defeat evil with evil. The result will be just far more evil. So I agree with the most of what it-ogo said too.
Не собираюсь спорить, просто чтобы прояснить свою точку зрения.

Originally Posted by Deborski

There are plenty of political forums where I dish out my opinion regularly, where it doesn't matter to me if I offend anyone.

I see. I have some experience in such kind of forums. They are good training of our character and fighting qualities but damage our ability to listen and understand anything new.

As for me I finally came to the conclusion that educating myself and expanding my own horizon is much more worthy objective of discussion than trying to convince anyone in anything. Usually I contradict an oponent only to the point when I obtain the formulation of my position that satisfy myself. I enjoy formulations.

Read a news story today, about a Scandinavian toy catalogue.
Because of the climate in Scandinavia, the catalogue contained "reversed" gender roles for the boys and girls.
So there were girls playing with trucks and power tools, and boys playing with dolls and toy kitchens.
(and this is just ONE examples of all the stuff that kids are exposed to, on this agenda. It's almost like kids who are true to gender identity are forced towards the opposite, on principle).

The catalogue was then sent to customers in France, on a large scale and many really took offense to it - and there was a huge debate in media about whether the Scandinavian views was deluded and ridiculous, or positive. Whereby Scandinavian media claims the French are reactive sexists and what not.

Personally I think - let the kids play as they like! Truth is probably most girls prefer the dolls. To try to turn nature upside down for little innocent children is ridiculous.