Thread: Sochi Olympics and the Law against Gays in Russia +

Unfortunately, even in America, gays continue to be persecuted, bullied, murdered and raped.

Iowa Youth Pastor Rapes Boys To 'Cure' Them Of Homosexuality, Won't Spend One Day In Prison -

And, at least in this particular case, there has been no justice.

"Rape the gay away" was also a popular idea among far-right conservatives in some African countries, where young lesbian girls were being raped by thugs who claimed it was "for their own good"... and they got away with it too, until the girls decided to fight back with this nifty little invention:

Just to make my previous post more clear: I am not denying that Russian LGBT activists are getting some help from foreign sources. Sometimes this help comes in the form of "strategic advice" (for example, suggestions on how to organize an email campaign efficiently); sometimes it comes in the form of money. I know quite well from reading gay newspapers in the States that some LGBT groups here have asked for monetary donations to assist Russian activists with the payment of police fines, for example.

But donations from abroad do not make Russia's gay-rights movement "non native."

И это -- своего рода "рекламирование гетеросексуальности":



И сегодня, даже кодга на автобусах в некоторых западных городах радужные флажки появляются -- на всего 1-2 недели в июне -- гетеросексуальность всё таки уважают, рекламируют, и "водружают на пьедесатал" как социальный идеал, ВЕЗДЕ и ВСЕГДА.

И всё-таки, примерно 1 из 40 детей окажется геем или лесбиянкой! А мы тоже с детства смотрели такие к/ф, как "Спящая Красавица" -- также, как вы гетеросексуал(ист)ы!

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

И это -- своего рода "рекламирование гетеросексуальности":

...
И сегодня, даже кодга на автобусах в некоторых западных городах радужные флажки появляются -- на всего 1-2 недели в июне -- гетеросексуальность всё таки уважают, рекламируют, и "водружают на пьедесатал" как социальный идеал, ВЕЗДЕ и ВСЕГДА.

И всё-таки, примерно 1 из 40 детей окажется геем или лесбиянкой! А мы тоже с детства смотрели такие к/ф, как "Спящая Красавица" -- также, как вы гетеросексуал(ист)ы!

Где-то я читала, что гомосексуалистов гораздо больше чем 1 из 40, просто понятно, что большинство скрытых. Ой, какие смешные вопросы народ задаёт! "Откуда у нас в стране столько геев и лезбиянок?", "Почему среди геев столько талантливых людей" и т.п. Вот тоже смешно: 10 вопросов П

Originally Posted by Lampada

Где-то я читала, что гомосексуалистов гораздо больше чем 1 из 40, просто понятно, что большинство скрытых. Ой, какие смешные вопросы народ задаёт! "Откуда у нас в стране столько геев и лезбиянок?", "Почему среди геев столько талантливых людей" и т.п. Вот тоже смешно: 10 вопросов П

Ссылка прикольная -- спасибо! (I've downloaded the page to read at my leisure... alas, I'm a lot slower in Russian!)

Originally Posted by Lampada

Вот тоже смешно: 10 вопросов П

I enjoyed reading this, but I certainly don't agree with everything the author said!

Regarding the percentage of the population that is bisexual, Kinsey and his disciples argued that sexual orientation can be mapped onto a standard-looking bell curve something like this:



That is, with a small number of "total homosexuals" on the left, an approximately equal number of "total heterosexuals" on the right, and a huge mountain of "equal-opportunity bisexuals" in the middle.

But other researchers have claimed that the actual bell curve for orientation is shaped more like this -- it's upside-down, and also asymmetric from left to right:



Here, there's a small mountain of homosexuals on the left, a larger mountain of heterosexuals on the right, and a VALLEY of bisexuals in between -- in other words, bisexuals are RARER than homosexuals. (Although in reality, the "hetero peak" is possibly ten times as tall as the "homo peak" -- not twice as tall, as in this example.)

If Kinsey was correct, then there is possibly a huge number of "hidden bisexuals", like the enormous mass of an iceberg underneath the water, though we can only see the tip of the iceberg. But if the "inverse bell curve" model is correct, then the 2-5% estimate for the number of homosexuals represents most of the non-heterosexual population -- in other words, there's NOT a gigantic number of bisexuals who are waiting to come out of the closet as soon as same-sex marriage is legalized, and thereby cause a demographic catastrophe.

As to which bell curve more closely represents reality -- honestly, I have no idea.

PS. I'd heard some of the author's points made by other people in English, but two things from the link that were totally new to me: First, the funny-but-disgusting neologism гетераст -- obviously meant to be an equivalent to the rude slang word "breeder" used by English-speaking gays, but to me it sounds even worse!

Second, the author implies that King Saul may have felt a homoerotic attraction to David: ""Он [Давид] был белокур, с красивыми глазами и приятным лицем. [...] и очень понравился ему [Саулу]" (1 Samuel 16:12 and16:21). I have certainly heard the hypothesis that David and Jonathan (Saul's son) may have had a "chastely homoerotic" affection between them, or that D & J were even lovers. But this is the first time I've seen the suggestion that there was a "triangle of jealousy" between Saul, Jonathan, and David. The Bible makes clear enough that King Saul envied David because he knew that David was destined to be a greater king, but of course зависть (envy) and ревность (jealousy) are two different things. And, honestly, I think that the author misquotes the verses to make it seem that Saul took special notice of David's good looks.

PPS. If you're looking for an "ancient gay romance", I think the textual evidence is much stronger for Gilgamesh and Enkidu than for Jonathan and David. (Even Gilgamesh and Enkidu can be interpreted as platonic heterosexual friends, not male lovers -- but the "hints" of homosexuality are a bit louder in that case.)

Короче -- the one most important thing I wish that Юрка and Eledhwen and Hanna and others would understand is this: these Russian LGBT people holding the "From Russia with Love" posters are very much ВАШИ.

Они "рекламируют" свою ориентацию, потому что...
...им надоело жить в подполье.

Им надоело жить во тьме, ради чужого суеверного утверждения, что любовь не может быть чистой, истинной, и достойной, если у влюбленных половые органы одного типа.

Им надоело менять местоимения -- "он" за "она" или "она" за "он" -- когда речь идёт о своей "лучшей половиной".

Им надоело смотреть молча, пассивно и бессильно, как других ЛГБТ-людей обижают.

Короче, им всё это надаело, и эти молодцы готовы "играть в мутанты-супергерои" и говорить гомофобным землякам: "Знаете, из-за таких людей, как вы, мы боялись идти в школу..."

Неужели вы думаете, что без американцев, ЛГБТ-россияне никак не могли бы прийти к очевидному выводу, что провести всю жизнь в подполье -- это totally sucks???

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Короче -- the one most important thing I wish that Юрка and Eledhwen and Hanna and others would understand is this: these Russian LGBT people holding the "From Russia with Love" posters are very much ВАШИ.

Они "рекламируют" свою ориентацию, потому что...
...им надоело жить в подполье.

Им надоело жить во тьме, ради чужого суеверного утверждения, что любовь не может быть чистой, истинной, и достойной, если у влюбленных половые органы одного типа.

Им надоело менять местоимения -- "он" за "она" или "она" за "он" -- когда речь идёт о своей "лучшей половиной".

Им надоело смотреть молча, пассивно и бессильно, как других ЛГБТ-людей обижают.

Короче, им всё это надаело, и эти молодцы готовы "играть в мутанты-супергерои" и говорить гомофобным землякам: "Знаете, из-за таких людей, как вы, мы боялись идти в школу..."

Неужели вы думаете, что без американцев, ЛГБТ-россияне никак не могли бы прийти к очевидному выводу, что провести всю жизнь в подполье -- это totally sucks???

Unfortunately, I think that Russia will have to follow its own path with regard to gay rights. I say "unfortunately" because we have already been down this road in America and we have seen what happens when homophobia is condoned and accepted by society. Innocent people have been persecuted, bullied, killed, raped, tortured and so forth. I tried to share the Matthew Shepard story earlier, not because I am trying to spread "propaganda" but because I wish Russians would just look and see what has already happened here, so that they could save themselves the same heartache and suffering.

But I believe that in the end, goodness and love will prevail. I know that Russian mothers love their children as fiercely as American mothers love theirs, so when gay teenagers are bullied and murdered, the mothers of these children will eventually protest for the lives of their babies - just as Matthew Shepard's mom did. She and his father were both mildly homophobic themselves, but their son's horrific death forced them to come to terms with their own prejudices. It was a long and bitter process, which Russia will simply have to experience on its own.

As far as that goes, the fight for gay equality is far from over in America, where gay kids are still bullied to the point where many of them commit suicide because they cannot change what they are, and life simply becomes too painful to go on. I will continue to fight for their right to be who they are without fear of persecution, but we have a long way to go even if we have managed to declare DOMA unconstitutional and allow gay marriage in some states.

Russia's battle will be its own. I only hope that the good people will condemn those who are so hateful that they would propose things like publicly humiliating and whipping people for being gay. I cannot fathom how anyone except the most ignorant of souls could support something as barbaric as that. But then, those who are ignorant are often the last to realize it, and it often takes a deep personal loss before they can finally learn empathy.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Unfortunately, I think that Russia will have to follow its own path with regard to gay rights. I say "unfortunately" because we have already been down this road in America and we have seen what happens when homophobia is condoned and accepted by society.

Well, as I've said, it could be fortunate if Russia follows its own path, because we've ALSO seen in America what happened когда ЛГБТ-Сообщество "выплеснуло и ребёнка вместе с водой".

The "bathwater", in this case, being homophobia, and the "baby" being some elementary sense of self-restraint and sexual boundaries.

For every Matthew Shepherd, there are thousands of young gay men who will be on expensive and toxic anti-viral pills for the rest of their lives because they believed that "it's more loving and intimate and exciting without a condom" -- and they chose to believe this because OTHER GAY MEN told them it was so.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Well, as I've said, it could be fortunate if Russia follows its own path, because we've ALSO seen in America what happened когда ЛГБТ-Сообщество "выплеснуло и ребёнка вместе с водой".

The "bathwater", in this case, being homophobia, and the "baby" being some elementary sense of self-restraint and sexual boundaries.

For every Matthew Shepherd, there are thousands of young gay men who will be on expensive and toxic anti-viral pills for the rest of their lives because they believed that "it's more loving and intimate and exciting without a condom" -- and they chose to believe this because OTHER GAY MEN told them it was so.

If Russia can figure it out with less suffering, and get it better than we did, then I hope they succeed. I would be the last person to claim that America has done everything right.

One other point for Hanna, Юрка, Eledhwen, et al. Do you know what the word "marranos"/"марраны" means? If you don't know the term and its history, it might be worth your time to read the links.

Historically, in Spain, a certain category of people were forced to live as "marranos" for one reason only -- because their very presence made the majority of other people emotionally uncomfortable. They weren't a threat to the lives of the majority; they weren't harming the majority in any REAL way; the only thing they offended were the sensibilities of the majority.

That was their offense: they didn't quite fit into the worldview of the majority. But why should the majority have the right to play at being Прокруст?

I was reading an article about Soviet discotheques when I stumbled upon the fascinating Soviet performer Sergey Minaev:



In reading a little about him, apparently he was known for performing very avant-garde and even wearing skirts, as he does in this video, and yet he had a huge following even in Soviet Russia. In later years, he became known for championing gay rights, but he was criticized as a hypocrite for never coming out of the closet himself.

It makes me wonder how the Soviet climate with regard to gay rights compares to the modern Russian climate. Thoughts, anyone?

Meanwhile, in Texas:

Public erections at Dallas pride will be charged as felonies, police say | Gay Star News

Originally Posted by Deborski

Meanwhile, in Texas:

Public erections at Dallas pride will be charged as felonies, police say | Gay Star News

GOOD!

Russian video reportedly shows gay student beaten and raped at gunpoint | The Raw Story

This story is making the rounds in the US right now and unfortunately, it is causing a lot of people to react very negatively to Russia. American perceptions of Russian homophobia are a big reason why there is so much anger and hatred towards Putin in the US right now.

I am not saying I agree with them, in fact quite the opposite. But these kinds of stories are not helping Russia's image in the world.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Russian video reportedly shows gay student beaten and raped at gunpoint | The Raw Story

It should be noted that this was apparently an "Uzbek-on-Uzbek" crime, which adds another dimension to it. Or, then again, maybe it's just the same "dimension" -- straight Russians are particularly offended by Russian gays, and straight Uzbeks are particularly offended by Uzbek gays, etc. (And before anyone protests, I DON'T MEAN TO COMPARE THE RUSSIAN "GAY PROPAGANDA" LAW WITH RAPE!!! I'm only comparing the "you're bringing shame upon our people" part.)

I am not clicking on that.

Originally Posted by Lampada

I am not clicking on that.

I didn't watch it either. The description was revolting enough. I don't need to actually see it happening. Я тебя хорошо понимаю )))

Закон о пропаганде гомосексуализма - Большой город

Закон подлости.

"...Закон направлен против гомосексуалистов, даже трансгендеров — бедные, эти-то тут вообще ни при чем, и так несчастные. Против транссексуалов. Раньше во всем были виноваты евреи, теперь во всем виноваты геи. ..."

Do you believe that stripping away these tiny signs of respect (which are probably the only things that keep the life on the Earth), by applying them to all the others who want to behave the same way but are not ready in any way to provide newly born human beings, will encourage the female humans to give more births?

Speaking as a woman, I do not feel in the slightest that my "signs of respect" have been "stripped away" by gays finally being allowed to experience the same marital hell which heterosexuals "enjoy." So if gays want to get married, and bicker and quarrel and get divorced and have custody battles and legal drama - by all means let them!

My "respect" as a female has been stripped away more by a society which praises all that is male and masculine, and shames all that is female and feminine.

Aggressiveness, toughness, ambition, power - these are masculine traits which society glorifies

Passiveness, gentleness, sensitivity, compassion, cooperation - these are feminine traits which society only pays lip service to, but does not really honor.

I do not believe that granting equality to another minority group in any way hurts my own fight for equality as a woman. And I also do not believe that my value as a human being who happens to be female, should be relegated to being a vessel for a man's sperm and incubating baby humans, either.

I spent long years as a journalist and witnessed so many things in my life that I could never describe all of them even if I wrote a thousand books. But I never had children. Some people look at me and think that is sad and shameful, but I do not feel ashamed for my life. Why should every woman consider it her "duty" to have children? There are already eight billion human beings on this planet. That number is so vast it is almost impossible to calculate. We are already overgrazing our planet and yet people are screaming "let's have MORE babies!" as if we had a whole other planet to unleash our population on.

There is nothing wrong with choosing not to have babies. And I do not believe that my entire value in the world is summed up in a wedding ring or a white dress.

If those are the only tokens of appreciation society can bestow on a woman, then the problem is not gays, the problem is SOCIETY and its backward and male-identified view of women as sex objects, brood-mares and cleaning maids.