Thread: Статус женщины в России

Originally Posted by starrysky

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Если это всё не регулировать, то начнётся "социалистический капитализм", когда работаешь как папа Карло, а зарабатываешь так, как будто работаешь на общественных началах.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Ну в Китае-то проблемы с низкой зарплатой не из-за иммиграции, а ровно из другой области -- перенаселенности. И их экономика наоборот на подъеме. Потом, я так понимаю, что "социалистический капитализм" это то же, что "капитализм с человеческим лицом" или "социальная демократия"?

Если вы сомневаетесь в пользе регулирования вопросов связанных с трудовой миграцией, попробуйте получить разрешение на работу в любой из стран Евросоюза или в Великобритании, или в США. Совершенно точно, что это будет сделать нелегко. А теперь задайте себе вопрос: "Почему эти страны поддерживают у себя такое законодательство?". Я верю, что Вы сможете на него ответить, и тогда Вам станет понятно зачем нужно регулировать эти вопросы не то что на уровне города (Москвы, например), но и на уровне государства. Причем это регулирование просто обязано быть достаточно жестким.

Перенаселенность Китая отнюдь не единственная причина низкого уровня заработной платы/уровня жизни в этой стране. Проанализируйте историю СССР, США (причины Депрессии) и тогда Вам станет понятно что к чему.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Только у нас такое вряд ли когда будет, наверно.

Заметье, что ни один иностранец не высказывает таких сомнений в отношении своей страны.

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Если вы сомневаетесь в пользе регулирования вопросов связанных с трудовой миграцией, попробуйте получить разрешение на работу в любой из стран Евросоюза или в Великобритании, или в США. Совершенно точно, что это будет сделать нелегко. А теперь задайте себе вопрос: "Почему эти страны поддерживают у себя такое законодательство?". Я верю, что Вы сможете на него ответить, и тогда Вам станет понятно зачем нужно регулировать эти вопросы не то что на уровне города (Москвы, например), но и на уровне государства. Причем это регулирование просто обязано быть достаточно жестким.

Я и не сомневаюсь в том, что миграция должна регулироваться законом (а не скинхедами ). Собственно, вроде законы-то у нас есть, может и недостаточно жесткие. Я всегда слышу, что в Россию, наоборот, сложно попасть -- много бюрократии и волокиты. Типа, не любят у нас иностранцев. Не знаю, может, неправда. Основная проблема в нелегалах.

P.S. Можно на "ты". По-моему, тут как-то больше на "ты" народ общается, нет?

Originally Posted by starrysky

Я и не сомневаюсь в том, что миграция должна регулироваться законом (а не скинхедами ).

Вообще-то я про законы и про систему нормативных актов которые бы навели порядок в этой области раз и навсегда. Скинхеды - это совсем другая "песня" (если конечно можно это "явление" назвать таким поэтичным словом ) я о ней даже не упоминала, и честно говоря - нет желания упоминать.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Собственно, вроде законы-то у нас есть, может и недостаточно жесткие.

Законы у нас очень даже неплохие, но не всегда подготовлена база для их исполнения и отслеживания их исполнения. Но я оптимистично смотрю на это, наша страна движется вперёд и есть много изменений в лучшую сторону.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Я всегда слышу, что в Россию, наоборот, сложно попасть -- много бюрократии и волокиты. Типа, не любят у нас иностранцев. Не знаю, может, неправда.

Иностранцев у нас очень даже любят. Везде по-другому смотрят на эммигрантов и иностранцев. Россия в этом плане на высоте.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Основная проблема в нелегалах.

Причем в огромном и никак неконтролируемом их количестве. У нас полно людей, которые могли бы выполнять такую работу. Кстати, чем плоха работа сантехника (правда хороший сантехник - это действительно ценный работник!), дворника, рабочего??? Почти всегда рядом с домом, это как минимум одно преимущество - бежать по утрам никуда не надо! Если человек, например учится, или он приближается к отметке того возраста, когда работадатель предпочтет ему более молодого работника, ну чем плохо поработать в собственном дворе, благоустраивая его, за пусть небольшие, но всё же деньги? Кстати в городском хозяйстве полно таких рабочих мест!

P.S. Можно на "ты". По-моему, тут как-то больше на "ты" народ общается, нет? [/quote]
Здесь нет жесткого правила на этот счет. Кому как удобней. Учту твоё пожелание в будущем.

Ekaterinak, I don't abhor emancipated women. If I did, I would not have started a topic asking why Russian women seemed not to have the same status as their western sisters. And starrysky, I am not trying to change history. Female emancipation has benefits for both men and women. What I was saying, was that in addition to the benefits it also has at least one less favourable consequence, namely, for whatever reason, emancipated women tend not to have enough children to maintain the size of the national population which then creates a need for imported labour. Earlier in the thread, Ekaterinak, I talked about the situation in some other European countries, so i was never trying to single out one country for special blame. If we discuss this question in a serious, mature and unemotional way, no one's feelings will get hurt.

The question of overpopulation is important. Some economists believe that if you have more mouths to feed, you also have more hands to produce food and so on with. I would also note that, as far as the environment is concerned, the 1.2 children of the average Italian family have a larger carbon footprint than the lets say 4 of a Bangladeshi family. They are fewer, but they use up more of the world's resources.

Olya, I am not the one who is self-important. You clearly tried to shut down this discussion when you wrote

Originally Posted by Оля

LET'S TAKL ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEMS IN THE UK!!!

(Or maybe Russians who don't have as much money as Berezovsky are not humans for you Brits?)

When I ignored you the first time, you tried again...and failed. If you want to tell people what they should and should not talk about, and where, and how, then you should try to become a moderator. Until that time, I will be guided by people who actually have authority. As for your attempts to contradict me at every turn, if it was just the Petersburg question, I might forgive you, but you know very well what you have done and the evidence is available.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

...why Russian women seemed not to have the same status as their western sisters.

By the way, Martin, can you clarify what particular 'status' do you have in mind? What do you mean by this word anyway? The answer of your original question depends on that.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

What I was saying, was that in addition to the benefits it also has at least one less favourable consequence, namely, for whatever reason, emancipated women tend not to have enough children to maintain the size of the national population which then creates a need for imported labour.

Hmm... the less people a country has the less services it needs, therefore having less demand for the jobs, and hence less imported labour.

I would agree with others who see a need for imported labour in people seeking more comfort for themselves (=better pay, working conditions, etc.) Whether that imported labour is legal or illegal that's another story...

Originally Posted by sperk

all of a sudden this belongs in culture and history??

Если судить по названию ("Статус женщины" я поняла как "положение женщины"), то дискуссия на такую тему вполне могла бы быть об истории женского вопроса в России и культуре отношений между полами. А так как тема приобрела какой-то размашистый характер, то я уже не знаю, где ей лучше быть.

[quote=Martin Miles]You clearly tried to shut down this discussion when you wrote

Originally Posted by "Оля":7gzio9lr

LET'S TAKL ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS PROBLEMS IN THE UK!!!

[/quote:7gzio9lr]
Dear Martin, you are so funny, really. It was 'clearly' for you, but not for others. I had no intention to shut down this discussion (and why sould I?). That sentence, and in that form, was just a joke which was, by the way, provoked by your incorrect Russian sentence (больше людей нуждаются в России) that meant, more or less, "More people want to live in Russia". So my sentence was a playful reply to your remark (as I understand it). And if you don't know, I can tell you that it's very hard for many Russians to visit the UK even as tourists (and at once you say 'more people want to LIVE in Russia', not just visit it), and that was the point of my reply. If you want people to understand you better, use the language you know better or add the English version to your post.
Actually, big letters meant 'addressing to all'. "Hey, all, I want you all to hear me, let's do such-and-such thing!.." And my 'shouting' was followed by a smiley, and it's strange that you didn't pay any attention to that.
Also, remember that Russians are more emotional and less bound by etiquette people than the English. If we shout or use big letters, it does not mean rudeness yet at all. If we don't intersperse our posts with remarks like "your post was brilliantly interesting, but...", "sorry for expressing my opinion which can be a bit harsh, but..." and so on, it does not mean that we have intention to contradict, offend or to be rude, either. If you want to learn Russian and are interested by Russia conditions and Russian society, you need to be less touchy and also more patient and open-minded then. You need to learn to understand if someone really meant to offend you or maybe has no idea that you feel offended about his remark/acts/behaviour. Otherwise you will always misunderstand people around you and be misunderstood yourself (as it often happens on this forum, let me tell you a secret, and not only because of your Russian).

As for your attempts to contradict me at every turn, if it was just the Petersburg question

If you call that 'contradicting', you are very strange, indeed...
I was actually trying to answer your question. It was rather you who contradicted me in that thread (and not only me, and see now what starrysky has written above about the Petersburg weather) and then, in addition to all, called me a liar. By the way, you didn't answer my question in that thread, about the singer's name. I see now that this question of mine was a crime, too.

then you should try to become a moderator.

Actually, I think it wouldn't be any problems, if I tried.

you know very well what you have done and the evidence is available.

Listen, stop this arrogant tone which is ridiculous. I haven't "done" anything for which I should justify myself before you. You seem to be a person with too many hang-ups who likes to seek out enemies and ill-wishers even in places where there are only friends. You wanted to see me as your enemy here, while I didn't even know that, so now you almost turned me into one. Who is next?

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Но я оптимистично смотрю на это, наша страна движется вперёд и есть много изменений в лучшую сторону.

Слава Богу, есть еще оптимисты в этой стране! А то что-то поднадоел весь этот негатив про то, как у нас все плохо.

Originally Posted by ekaterinak

Кстати, чем плоха работа сантехника (правда хороший сантехник - это действительно ценный работник!), дворника, рабочего??? Почти всегда рядом с домом, это как минимум одно преимущество - бежать по утрам никуда не надо! Если человек, например учится, или он приближается к отметке того возраста, когда работадатель предпочтет ему более молодого работника, ну чем плохо поработать в собственном дворе, благоустраивая его, за пусть небольшие, но всё же деньги? Кстати в городском хозяйстве полно таких рабочих мест!

Я считаю, что всякий труд нужен и благороден и должен хорошо оплачиваться, но тенденция почему-то такая, что менеджер в офисе (который полдня висит в интернете, пьет кофа и перекуривает) зарабатывает в разы больше, чем продавец в магазине или уборщица или дворник. Т.е. в плане часов и усилий, человек работает так же, или даже меньше, а получает больше. В результате кто ж захочет работать дворником? Не знаю, как в Москве, а у нас тут дворники 25 тыщ не получают.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Если судить по названию ("Статус женщины" я поняла как "положение женщины"), то дискуссия на такую тему вполне могла бы быть об истории женского вопроса в России и культуре отношений между полами.

Кстати, хорошая идея. Кое о чём тут уже упоминалось, но вообще эту тему можно развить. *думает чего бы такого умного сказать* Будет время, погуглю.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

What I was saying, was that in addition to the benefits it also has at least one less favourable consequence, namely, for whatever reason, emancipated women tend not to have enough children to maintain the size of the national population which then creates a need for imported labour.

Maintaining the size of the national population is the last thing a woman would consider when planning her family. I would like to have, let's say, three children, provided the circumstances are right and health permits. But if it is to be the life of an average Bangladeshi family, no thank you.

Concerning the initial question, whether women in Russia are emancipated enough and enjoy the same rights and liberties that Western women do, yes, women here became quite emancipated during the Soviet times already, so nowadays I'd say there's almost no difference (I suppose this was already said at the beginning of this discussion). But feminism in Russia isn't quite so strong and there remain some vestiges of the older kind of men--women relationships. I do think it would be quite interesting to delve into the history and traditions as Lampada suggested.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Hmm... the less people a country has the less services it needs, therefore having less demand for the jobs, and hence less imported labour.

If all age groups of the population declined at the same rate that might be true. When the birth rate declines, what happens is that the workforce contracts in relation to the sum of retired people. The pensions of retirees are, in effect, paid by the workforce, so if there are not enough people working, then pensions can't be paid. Furthermore, a population in which old people predominate is heading for eventual extinction. That's not my opinion, it's the view of leading Russian demographers.

Btw, I have a personality of my own, so I am accustomed to being misunderstood. The Russian people, I am told, say that they too are often misunderstood. They should be glad, therefore, when anyone attempts to learn their language. But I would really prefer to talk about the status of women in Russia.

Ramil, my question was prompted by an article in 'Izvestia' (the link is on page one) which said that Russian women are not as well represented in politics and big business as women in the West. So by 'status' I meant their degree of participation in the leadership of the country.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

So by 'status' I meant their degree of participation in the leadership of the country.

I don't see any problem then. Medvedev may complain about small number of women in politics, but in reality a rare woman would want to choose a political career. It's not discrimination of any sort but a simple fact that women in general do not want to go into politics. And I don't think anything should be done to change this situation, but this is my personal opinion.

Originally Posted by Ramil

It's not discrimination of any sort but a simple fact that women in general do not want to go into politics.

So be it. Russia is different, as they say. And if Russians are often misunderstood, whatever others might think, I would not say that they are "strange", "funny" or "paranoid" .

Originally Posted by Ramil

It's not discrimination of any sort but a simple fact that women in general do not want to go into politics.

How easily you decide for all women. Not so long ago it was thought that a woman is 'man's best friend' and nothing should be done about it.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Not so long ago it was thought that a woman is 'man's best friend' and nothing should be done about it.

I suspect that the ambiguity of this phrase is missed in translation.

I'd say that a woman is man's second worst enemy. After himself.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Originally Posted by Ramil

It's not discrimination of any sort but a simple fact that women in general do not want to go into politics.

How easily you decide for all women.

Have you perchance noticed me mentioning the words 'in general' and 'personal opinion'?
I've polled all women I work with about whether they want to make a political career, I've polled my wife and all her female friends. The universal answer was 'NO'.

And a woman is a man's best friend, after all.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

starrysky wrote:
Not so long ago it was thought that a woman is 'man's best friend' and nothing should be done about it.

I suspect that the ambiguity of this phrase is missed in translation.

Пожалуйста, объясните.

I get it now. In English, "Man's best friend" (the dog) and "the best friend of a man" are different in form and meaning, but a Russian would say something like "лучший друг человека" to translate both phrases. Хм...

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

but a Russian would say something like "лучший друг человека" to translate both phrases. Хм...

Well, actually, in Russian "the best friend of a man" would be "лучший друг одного человека" (if you mean a certain man). Technically, you can translate it just as "лучший друг человека", but the context always dictates the exact phrase.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

I get it now. In English, "Man's best friend" (the dog) and "the best friend of a man" are different in form and meaning, but a Russian would say something like "лучший друг человека" to translate both phrases. Хм...

человек (a human) vs. мужчина (a male) - both these words can be translated as 'man' in English.

Originally Posted by Оля

Well, actually, in Russian "the best friend of a man" would be "лучший друг одного человека" (if you mean a certain man).

Actually, "the best friend of a man" in English would not refer to a certain man, the article is indefinite. A man can mean one as opposed to two or three or men in general. The real distinction is between a man (any male person) and Man (a human being, humanity in general). My understanding is that человек can cover both meanings, but I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong .