Thread: Статус женщины в России

Originally Posted by Starrysky

Originally Posted by Johanna

I guess that it is not really realistic to expect a man to be both "sensitive, understanding" and "good at discussing feelings"... and macho and attractive in *that* way at the same time. (....anymore than there are "sexy" women who are interested in Formula 1 and icehockey....)

No, it's not. No one's perfect, so it's better not to expect that there'd ever be full understanding between men and women. John Grey (I swear I haven't paid been paid to advertise him ) talks very interestingly about it, but his book is basically a few good ideas which are repeated over and over again for 300 pages.

I read the first book in the "Men are from Mars" series a few years ago when I was engaged to somebody and didn't understand him very well at times. I also read an American book (forgotten title) that was a massive best-seller. It was rather shamelessly about how to manipulate men to get what you want... I tried the "tricks" and they work amazingly well. A woman who can behave like those books suggest for the rest of her life will have no trouble with men at all..

The trouble is that it's *really* hard to keep up the act, and after a while you start feeling very dishonest and uncomfortable, since you are essentially acting, not being yourself... Lying and tricking somebody you love. I can't handle that. Well, maybe I should reconsinder my approach.. I am single while most of my friends are getting married or even having babies. (although that's mainly because I've been working too much...)

In Russia the housewife's role is more socially acceptable than in the Western Europe. From the other hand, nobody objects against a working mother. Motherhood is just taken for a job, and a hard one. Parental leave may last up to three years by the law.

Most men regard family supporting as their duty, no matter if their spouse helps or not.

Frankly that seems like a good situation - each woman/man/family can choose what suits them.

Originally Posted by Ленивец

In Russia the housewife's role is more socially acceptable than in {the} (no article, it's a name) Western Europe. On the other hand, nobody objects to a working mother. Motherhood is just taken for a job, and a hard one. Parental leave may last up to three years by {the} law.

Most men regard family supporting as their duty, no matter if their spouse helps or not.

Thank you for the corrections, bitpicker! I understand all of them, but one - "by law" against "by the law".

The reason is that the Russian law was meant, and I've also found an article in 'The Guardian' which uses 'the law' in the headline "Should Roman Polanski be above the law?" http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2009/...nch-government

Could you expand more on the reasons?

'By law' is an expression which means 'guaranteed by existing laws'. You can use 'by the law' in reference to a specific, identifiable law. In your case I would prefer something like 'according to Russian law'. Here, again, there's no article because it refers to the whole body of law instead of a specific law which is part of that body.

But here it is not so much a question of rules but of fixed expressions. 'To be above the law' is such an expression, you can't have it without the article. Likewise, 'by law' without an article means 'has a legal basis', for instance 'married by law' = married in a way which is recognized as a legal obligation as opposed to just a cultural or religious act. Yet there are other expressions with an article, such as 'to abide by the law'.

Robin

Starrysky mentions in an earlier post how men tend to start wars while women leaders might be more peaceable. One paradox that occurs to me, is that when women have equality with men they tend to have fewer children, so that some European countries are shrinking with regard to population. The population of Russia, even, is getting smaller every year by 700, 000. That's 11 million fewer Russians by the year 2025. So, serious wars, started by men, reduce the population temporarily, but emancipated women not having enough children has a similar, possibly worse, effect. Take your pick.


Ramil, you misrepresent my opinion if you say I ascribe everything to hormones.

I read some things about problems with the declining population of Russia. Apparently:

1) There are some financial incentives for families to have children (extra govt stipend every month and increasing regulated time off after having a child to a year.)

2) People from Central Asia and the Caucasus are still having lots of children - allowing more immigration from there "solves" the problem in a fashion.

3) There has in fact been a small baby boom during 08-09.

The debate in the UK right now is that it is the "wrong" people that are having children... The government want well-educated married people to have children. But those who have many children tend to be low-income, young single people who later might end up with problems.

Same story across the world I think.

The league table of international fertility rates makes interesting reading. In the top ten, with around 7 births per woman are mainly African countries along with Afghanistan and East Timor. Towards the bottom of the list are mainly Western European countries where women are emancipated. The average Italian woman has 1.2 children. The Russian rate is 1.35. Couples there are just not replacing themselves. Someone asked: When will Europeans realise the seriousness of the problem? When they are all in their wheelchairs and there is no one to push.

Immigration seems to be a solution, but there is strong feeling against immigrants in Russia, мне кажется. And I could be wrong, but I don't think the attitude of other Europeans is too different. If you say that you want only highly skilled migrants then you can be accused of promoting underdevelopment in the countries these people are coming from. Что делать?

Who cares what her status is. (Deleted. L.)

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Immigration seems to be a solution, but there is strong feeling against immigrants in Russia, мне кажется.

There is, unfortunately. I think it's digusting but yes, skinheads/nationalists/neo-nazis, or whatever they are called, are spreading in Russia... In my city they were allowed to organize a demonstration on the 4th of November...
http://forum.academ.org/index.php?sh...5&st=0&start=0

Women don't have a lot of children as they used to not only because of having to go to work but also because contraceptives have only recently (in Russia) become available. In the Soviet Union they were much harder to come by, like many other consumer goods. So today women are saying that they can't afford to have more children and they're able to control this side of their lives. Our government has been trying to make women give birth to more babies. Various financial incentives have been put into practice and even at my uni we had a propaganda course for half a year all about "babies." And you know, it works. There was a sort of a baby-boom these last two years. Whether this policy is going to prove successful or not in the long run, I don't know. I suspect it might not. In Europe the standards of living are much higher yet there's the same problem.

Originally Posted by starrysky

So today women are saying that they can't afford to have more children and they're able to control this side of their lives.

Originally Posted by starrysky

In Europe the standards of living are much higher yet there's the same problem.

I do not believe that the real reason why emancipated women are having fewer children is because they can't afford to have more. If the cost of raising a child was the deciding factor, you would expect the rich to have more children than the poor; in fact, the opposite is true. Westerners are much better off than 100 years ago, but when they were poorer, they had more children.

Probably emancipated women don't want to endure the discomfort of carrying a child for 9 months. Plus bringing up children also requires the input of time and energy. Maybe that's what they really mean when they say they can't afford it, but I don't think money is the real problem.

Women should have rights over their bodies, but at the same time they shouldn't complain about being swamped by immigrants who are helping to solve a problem that has been created by the emancipated women themselves.

I have been doing some reading about Russia's population problem as well. It seems as though the small baby boom of the last two years is due to the fact that in the 80s the Soviets had a drive to increase births, the extra girls born then are now having children of their own hence the bump. Demographers say that state efforts to increase births should be implemented when the number of women of childbearing age is declining, not increasing as it is now. Furthermore, the problem in Russia is more acute than in Europe because Russia has a much higher deathrate (mainly due to alcoholism; life expectancy for men is about 60).

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Plus bringing up children also requires the input of time and energy.

And money. Money for food, clothing, education, medicine, all sorts of toys, books, I'm not even talking about high-tech gadgets. Women of the past had a lot of children but they couldn't always provide them with decent living conditions. They just had no choice. Today it's quality rather than quantity which is first and foremost in parents' minds. I don't think that it's absolutely necessary to be able to provide your offspring with a new cell phone every month but there are certain ... eh societal expectations to be met with... No one would want their kid to have a poverty complex, or something.

Yes, it's a complex problem which stems from many factors, not only money; some of them have nothing to do with emancipation, like the mother's health -- having children is extermely costly for the health. For example, the growing fetus takes away all mother's calcium which it needs to build its bones, which results in great problems with teeth for the mother. If she doesn't want these problems she has to take all sorts of vitamins and calcium, which also costs money, btw.

Time is an important factor, as well, and it is related to emancipation. Women have to work, ergo they don't have enough time to be with their children and can't afford to have more kids. But I'm pretty sure that that's down to men -- the majority of women would only love to sit at home and care for children, if their husband brough enough money... I'll not answer for all women, of course...

In Russia it's almost all about money at the moment, I believe, or lack thereof, to be more precise. Women are often paid less than men. Maybe not always intentionally, especially if we talk about government organizations -- everyone's equal there. But it's mostly women who work in the least paid spheres -- they're teachers in schools and kindergartens, nurses, shop assistants. There's still this notion that man is the main bread-winner and employers know that. For example, no man will agree to a salary less than 20.000 rubles (this is just an exampe, many wouldn't agree to less than 30.000, 40.000 and so on). "I have a family to provide for!" they'll say. Whereas it's all right to pay a teacher in a kindergarten 7.000. If you get this much money you can do nothing with it, especially if you don't have your own corner and have to rent a flat/room. All that money will go just to pay for one room. Even if a woman has a husband who brings money, where's the guarantee he won't leave her some day or start drinking? Why would she have a lot of children in such conditions if she is able not to?

Women should have rights over their bodies, but at the same time they shouldn't complain about being swamped by immigrants who are helping to solve a problem that has been created by the emancipated women themselves.

I'm yet to hear of a woman who has a problem with immigrants. It's skinheads who do complain, or rather, beat up innocent foreigners to death, and they usually don't yet have any children and don't understand the true meaning of words such as love, family, and peace, because they've barely left puberty age.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Women are often paid less than men. Maybe not always intentionally, especially if we talk about government organizations -- everyone's equal there. .

.[/quote]
I think it is intentional! Women are not equal when it comes to salary in Russia. My wife is a better teacher than I yet she is paid 2 to 3 times less than me. This in turn has changed the cultural values of Russians. Men are expected to pay for everything for a women when in their company. Every one knows that woman have little money, so a man is considered "scum" if he leaves the bar bill etc for the woman to pay.

Originally Posted by starrysky

Yes, it's a complex problem which stems from many factors, not only money;

Agreed.

Originally Posted by starrysky

There was a sort of a baby-boom these last two years. Whether this policy is going to prove successful or not in the long run, I don't know. I suspect it might not. In Europe the standards of living are much higher yet there's the same problem.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by starrysky

I'm yet to hear of a woman who has a problem with immigrants

No comment.

I hope never to see the day when Mother Russia becomes страна бабушек, but experts say it's heading in that direction.

Very interesting to read the different perspectives on this.
It's sad that people view children as an expensive "accessory".

I read an English papers' rundown on what it "costs" for a middle class family to give their children the "right" kind of upbringing. It was listing the cost hiring a nanny/au-pair. private schools, ski holidays, extra language and music tuition, sports equipments, designer wardrobes and much more.

After reading that, a lot of people (particularly from that background) might conclude that they simply can't afford to have children because the can't pay for all of the things listed... Or both parents work themselves half to death to be able to afford it..

In reality most people in the UK can afford all the basics that a child needs to reach adulthood - just not the glamourous and prestigious extras.

Pretty sick in my opinion. If I had children I think I'd prefer to live somewhere where there is no pressure on them to become perfect little geniuses and consumers.
Ideally not in a large city either.

One more thing; I have been invited many times to go to clubs or bars with Russian girls but they don't ask to go with them because they like me as much as they know that if they are with a man they will have everything paid for. A stupid man can be broke quickly in Russia!

Татьяна Голикова: "Пора вернуть мужчинам роль главы рода".
http://www.izvestia.ru/obshestvo/article3136164

Что вы думаете?

Originally Posted by DDT

One more thing; I have been invited many times to go to clubs or bars with Russian girls but they don't ask to go with them because they like me as much as they know that if they are with a man they will have everything paid for. A stupid man can be broke quickly in Russia!

This is strange. I can understand the situation where it is the one who invites that pays the bill but vice versa... Personally, I don't usually let anyone to pay for myself because I don't like to feel indebted to a person I hardly know. But it is true that it's standard practice for the man to pay in Russia. I think I have described on page one of this topic an awkward situation my friend got into in the US because of this difference.

Originally Posted by Martin Miles

Что вы думаете?

Ничего хорошего.

As much I'd like to have traditional family values promoted, I'll not side with those dames. They are anti-abortion and anti-juvenile justice. I like abortion no more than the next person but I think a woman has the right to decide for herself what to do with her own body.

председатель думского комитета по вопросам семьи, женщин и детей Елена Мизулина призвала запретить аборты и пообещала не допустить создания ювенальной юстиции по западным образцам.

Yeah, right. I think I'll show this article to my mum, she'll be irate. We live in a secular country, yet the church is getting too cheeky and trying to meddle more and more, introducing religious subjects at school, proposing anti-abortion laws, and so on. There has been a lot of discussion on my local forum lately and the majority of the forum population is vehemently against any such ideas, especially when it comes to abortion.

"Почему мы не можем ограничить аборты только медицинскими показаниями?" - под аплодисменты зала заявила народная избранница. Второй раз депутат Мизулина вызвала восхищение, когда пообещала не допустить создания в стране системы ювенальной юстиции по западным образцам. Мизулина сообщила, что прямо разъяснила в Европе - их система противоречит российским традициям и культуре: "У нас дети - это послушание и уважение, а родители - любовь и забота. Разрешить нашим детям жаловаться на родителей - это причинить огромный вред обществу".

Yes, we'll just look on as loving parents beat their children to within an inch of their life. Children don't even know sometimes that this is not normal parent behavior and that they should tell somebody.
http://academ.info/node/12453