USSR got "drawn into" Vietnam and Korea too. You were there fighting as well. Why? To struggle to build communism for the whole world? Not everyone wants to be ruled by US democracy, but NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE RULED BY COMMUNISM EITHER.Originally Posted by Ramil
Vietnamese did the last one pretty much alone. Millions were dead because they were too late. Japan was occupied by the US alone (and its' constitution was pretty much written by Americans).These were done internationally. Tens of millions dead.Germany'45? Japan'45? Cambodia'78?
Korea: US succeeded in repelling an aggression (foreign-inspired btw). Truman's greatest (I'd call it criminal) mistake was not using the means at his disposal to thwart the Chinese aggression once and for all, there was no reason for NK to exist to start with.Korea'53, Cuba'61, Vietnam'75
These were attempted by US alone. US failed. Hundreds of thousands dead.
Cuba? You mean, the Bay of Pigs? Don't make people laugh, the attempt itself was funny enough
Vietnam? Toby already wrote about that.
So did the Soviet Union back in the arms raceAnd it was governed by, shall we say, slightly-more-than-irresponsilbe people. Heck, the USSR had the means to kill their own citizens, and they did. You're so quick to bash the US for "starting wars" (which is, as I've said, not quite true with regards to starting them) but you don't take a look at your own country's track record, which is as bad as or far worse than that of the US. Gulags killed more people than both of the A-bombs on Japan ever did, for example, but that neevvverrrr gets mentioned on these forums.
This is starting to be funny. Yes, USSR was bad - we got your point. USSR is no more. For already 15 years. Russian Federation is a different country. Stalin died in 1953. Maybe just to humour you I'll start remembering of all those poor Afro-Americans you molested for centuries? Or the genocide of native Americans? Or the Civil War? It's 21st century now or haven't you noticed? Russia doesn't have gulag any more. You're justifying present actions of USA by facts that gulag had taken much more lives than USA did. Do you strive to settle the score or what?
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Ok so if we are talking about the current situation, this is what I think.
The war in Iraq, I would love to see the US pullout and return the troops back home. However I feel if they do that right now, then some other dictator will take over and Iraq will be back in the same place if not worse.
So hopefully by 2008 as Bush has stated, Iraq will be ready to run there own country.
For Afghanistan? I believe we need to stay there until we root all them terrorists out, its unfortunate that it has taken this long, but they can hide. And as long as terrorist are making threats then we need to put a stop to that. Not only for our lives and economy but for others too.
As for North Korea, I dont like the idea with them having Nukes, so hopefully the sanctions work and they stop that as well.
Just my opinion.
USSR didn't survive its mistakes. I just don't understand. By justifying the present course of USA do you want the same fate for it? Wise learn on mistakes of others, fools learn on mistakes of their own.USSR got "drawn into" Vietnam and Korea too. You were there fighting as well. Why? To struggle to build communism for the whole world? Not everyone wants to be ruled by US democracy, but NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE RULED BY COMMUNISM EITHER.
Send me a PM if you need me.
Geez, I know the gulag didn't exist after Stalin's death. And the Civil War? Hellooo--Russia had their own civil war at the time of the Bolshevik Revolution! Genocide of Native Americans? Yes, that was wrong but so was your genocide under Stalin. Slavery? Yes that was wrong too but most Americans did not support it, and it was abolished as a result of the Civil War. And just like the gulag, none of that stuff exists anymore.
Well everyone makes mistakes so are we all fools?
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me, Tobi!
Surely. But it was American occupation that made Japan into what it is now, removing the bunch of power-crazed lunatics that it had as its' government before then.The Japanese are wise. They seized the whole world without any bloodshed. I prefer them as my 'oppressors'.
And if all countries behaved like Japan or New Zealand are behaving, there would be a lot fewer reasons for the US to exercise (or maintain) its' force. Let's hope that happens once.
So why are you waiving the flag with the bold word "GULAG' written on it in almost all your posts? Does it bother you?Genocide of Native Americans? Yes, that was wrong but so was your genocide under Stalin. Slavery? Yes that was wrong too but most Americans did not support it, and it was abolished as a result of the Civil War. And just like the gulag, none of that stuff exists anymore.
You didn't answer the question that was in my post though.
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No I am not trying to settle the score. I'm just pointing out that although you bash the US you ignore the bad things your own country has done.
Who said you so?
We're discussing a topic here. You can read it again right now. You may open a new topic and we'll discuss bad things my own country has done.
Believe me, I know much more than you do about this. I know bad things my country did you aren't even aware of.
Although you bash Russia you ignore the bad things your own country has done. Our countries done and are doing now many bad things. That's not my fault, believe me. I'm not doing any bad things at the moment.
Are you?
Send me a PM if you need me.
You may not like that idea but this process cannot be stopped. And I'm not talking about NK alone. Nuclear technologies are not so big a secret now. Every student understands at least principles involved. I learned them back at school. Information leaks more and more. You can't have nuclear energy and at the same time be unaware about how to produce nuclear weapons. USA can slow that process a little but it cannot stop it entirely. Maybe it's better to get used to the idea and to think about how to live with it. Even if NK is stopped, some other countries would continue doing that again and again and again. Either USA will subdue the whole world wasting a great amount of efforts to buy some 10-20 years of stability or it will collapse trying.
Send me a PM if you need me.
If you've read my previous posts and posts on other threads, you'll see I've mentioned that I was against the Yugoslavia bombings and the napalm bombings in Vietnam and I've said we're not a perfect nation and that we have plenty of things wrong with our current political system. I really don't ignore the bad things about my country, and I don't mean to seem like I do.
You may not like that idea but this process cannot be stopped. And I'm not talking about NK alone. Nuclear technologies are not so big a secret now. Every student understands at least principles involved. I learned them back at school. Information leaks more and more. You can't have nuclear energy and at the same time be unaware about how to produce nuclear weapons. USA can slow that process a little but it cannot stop it entirely. Maybe it's better to get used to the idea and to think about how to live with it. Even if NK is stopped, some other countries would continue doing that again and again and again. Either USA will subdue the whole world wasting a great amount of efforts to buy some 10-20 years of stability or it will collapse trying.
The problem with that thinking is that the US gets Blamed for trying and of course blamed for NOT trying. So its never a win win situation. We are a World Power and other nations expect the USA to do something about issue such as this. However if we ignore we get blasted as well.
Somebody already mentioned about Pakistan and India having Nukes and why did the US not do anything about them? I will allow other people to comment about that.
I believe North Korea is unstable and hates the US so much that they are willing to sell a nuke to a terrorist to strike the US.
Who knows who else the North Korians will hate next year, maybe Russia? Maybe China? Who knows, but countries that like to threaten should have have Nukes!
I dont know what you mean by the WHOLE WORLD wasting efforts, right now its Mainly the US with Japan a close second and China being a distant third. When I say distant, its because they have Money tied into North Korea as well, so they have to tread lightly on the situation.
Everyone else? I dont think they have the concern or the money(economy) to even care right now.
There are not that many countries like NK though, e.g. I'd be perfectly fine with Japan and SK getting their own nukes.You may not like that idea but this process cannot be stopped. And I'm not talking about NK alone. Nuclear technologies are not so big a secret now. Every student understands at least principles involved. I learned them back at school. Information leaks more and more. You can't have nuclear energy and at the same time be unaware about how to produce nuclear weapons. USA can slow that process a little but it cannot stop it entirely. Maybe it's better to get used to the idea and to think about how to live with it. Even if NK is stopped, some other countries would continue doing that again and again and again. Either USA will subdue the whole world wasting a great amount of efforts to buy some 10-20 years of stability or it will collapse trying.
............................
No I have never thought that, where does the US intervene? I believe we have great communication with China and have not realized any issues in some time.Not necessarily. Have you ever thought that some of these countries are backwards because of US intervention? The US is doing everything it can to stop China's economic growth... if everyone in China were as well-off as in the US, then Americans would suffer.
As for the other countries, they have been here thousands of years before the US yet they still lack basic services, medicine etc.. yet there dictators have many palaces, money etc..... So show me some facts that the US is getting in there way.
I am stating that the US had no rights to intervene unless someone (like Saudi Arabia and Kuwaiti did) request assistance. Now you cant tell me that it is not being nice that we would come to the aid of a country requesting assistance from a tyrant? Yes we have some long-term benefit, no doubt, I am sure it is written in contracts that everyone always fails to see. Contracts that state, US help us and we will grant you OIL at a better price! You see, we are business people too, and if we dont see some benefit of the US taxpayers paying for a war, then hmmm something is wrong. But everyone always forgets about the facts AFTER the WAR. Who pays what, and for how long.I don't really get what you are saying here, but if you are trying to say the USA is being "nice" and "helping all these folks" then I entirely disagree. You may say that the benefits are long-term, well, that may be true, but it will be a very, very long time before the advantages finally outweigh the cost of the lives of the thousands of innocents murdered (on both sides).
Remember it was Iraq who attacked, during that WAR, If civilians died, please send a note to Saddam for not looking after them, or not understanding the consequences of attacking countries.
They have nothing to do with Iraq, not during Enduring Freedom anyway. Enduring Freedom was the war within Afghanistan NOT Iraq. So this portion of my comment was concerning the war in Afghanistan and not Iraq.What does Al Qaeda have to do with Iraq? I sort of agree with Afghanistan, but that is an entirely different story.
Well if your not going to understand that is ok too, maybe your ok with someone having a bomb living next door to you, or a threat to other neighborhoods far away. But the international community does not condone this. So just becuase it is my house, I do have rules in the community to live by.Well I wouldn't be demanding you let me search your house for bombs in the first place. It is your house after all and who am I to tell you what to do?
I know your from New Zealand, so thanks for telling me.
On another note, do you think that it was ok for Russia to "place" Nuclear weapons on our next door neighbors land? They were trying to be very sneeky and our neighbors where like, what are you talking about, we have no Nukes. So we had to prove that they did, could you imagine what could have happened all over the world? WWIII and it would not had been pretty for anyone. So yes, we do have the right to know!
unfortunately, the longer the US stays in the Middle East the more terrorists there are going to be, unless they do something to drastically change how people percieve them over there. You are not going to be able to kill them all and then wham, that's it - no more terrorists. There are always going to be new ones to replace the old. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, don't forget, and America is not very popular these days. Even if you don't agree with them you can see where it comes from. I too would probably become a "guerilla fighter" if my country (New Zealand - not Russia, btw) were invaded by some Islamic country trying to set up a religious theocracy, killing my family and friends in the process. And imagine how I would feel when I found out all they really wanted were the sheep...
I agree with you here, thats why I would love to leave Iraq, but again, we cant leave with the current situation as it is. We have to be responisble and make sure things are right before leaving. I beleive there are more folks happy then there are Terrorists. We all just look at the media who only portrays the terrorists activities. Do you not remember the day the Coalition took over Baghdad? The citizens where so happy, dancing in the streets, and dragging Saddams head all over the place. In Afghanistan the Taliban is trying to make another push, we need to show them that they cannot do this. However we need to be doing this with the local Afghanistan people, meaning more of them and less of us. Until we see that they can defend themselves of such people.
Thats the problem with Islam(my opinion) is that they believe that there Religion is above everyone elses. So until they understand that there are many others, they need to just take a chill pill. The problem is that it is huge following, but I doubt that most of them are radicals like the few we know. This also has to do with there government keeping things from them, or teaching them what they want them to be taught.
I have many friends in the Islamic community and it never seems to amaze me the way they think and the way they do things. I just have to keep telling them, sorry, I dont do it like that. Most that are in the US actually understand that now, understand that freedom to choose. Unfortunately, they only learn of that once they get to the US, or better yet, to countries outside the Islamic ones.
Do you really thing Kim Jong Il wants to die? Last I heard he was a big fan of expensive cuisine and cars etc... Why would he want to be vaporised in a nuclear explosion? Maybe the oppressed people would think differently (probably not), but Kim Jong Il has a pretty sweet life.... A nuclear attack on America would directly affect everyone (including the people making the desicions), not just the soldiers on the front line like in a conventional war. Desicions like launching a nuclear weapon are not taken lightely and these people are not stupid. Everyone knows the consequences of nuclear war these days...
I dont believe he wants to die, nor did Hitler, or Saddam or many other dictators such as him. The problem here are his threats to the US and international community (South Korea, Japan etc..) that is not acceptable. So if he wants to do the things he loves to do as stated by your post, then why threaten, why cause problems with the international community? He was doing just fine without the threats and Nuke issues. Is this because he actually believes he can cause issues with the international community? If they know the consequences then he must really be way off, because he would not think about even building a Nuke. Look at Libya, we struck Iraq for that reason, and within weeks, Libya was like, Hi US we want to work with you, what do you need from us? We need you to stand down, we need you to stop the threats, we need you to compensate the families for your bombings, we need you to NOT start any Nuclear programs etc.. etc.. etc...
Yes Sir, we will abide! Have you heard anything between the US and Libya lately?
umm NOT!
http://www.litera.ru/stixiya/authors...cam-slona.html
Иван Крылов
СЛОН И МОСЬКА
По улицам Слона водили,
Как видно напоказ -
Известно, что Слоны в диковинку у нас -
Так за Слоном толпы зевак ходили.
Отколе ни возьмись, навстречу Моська им.
Увидевши Слона, ну на него метаться,
И лаять, и визжать, и рваться,
Ну, так и лезет в драку с ним.
"Соседка, перестань срамиться,-
Ей шавка говорит,- тебе ль с Слоном возиться?
Смотри, уж ты хрипишь, а он себе идет
Вперед
И лаю твоего совсем не примечает".-
"Эх, эх! - ей Моська отвечает,-
Вот то-то мне и духу придает,
Что я, совсем без драки,
Могу попасть в большие забияки.
Пускай же говорят собаки:
"Ай, Моська! знать она сильна,
Что лает на Слона!"
<1808>
И.А.Крылов. Басни.
Москва, "Художественная Литература", 1963.
Why don't just let them boast? They do that ONLY to keep its own population under control. Koreans are isolated from the rest of the world but a certain uncomfortable questions within the population arise even there. The government cannot provide a satisfactory answers so to keep their power they need to find an image of an external foe. USA suits best for that. They may be stupid but not that stupid. South Korea will become an island after NK will attempt any hostile action against USA and only a complete fool doesn't see it. So why are they doing this? Do you really believe they are maniacs?
Because otherwise it would seem logical to establish trade and cultural ties with the rest of the world. This would only lead to him and his cohort losing his power. They have nightmares about opening borders and free trade. Their political system will collapse almost instantly. But give them a threat and they will have the ability to hold their population in an iron fist.So if he wants to do the things he loves to do as stated by your post, then why threaten, why cause problems with the international community?
I strongly suspect that CIA had already penetrated their nuclear facilities and know how things stand maybe even better than the Koreans themselves. So some five launches with 1:10 probability of a successful shoot doesn't really pose any threat. As far as I know those Korean missiles lack the range necessary to cross the Pacific Ocean. Launch one and in 30 minutes you'll die. I'll repeat they are not that stupid. Give them another 10 years and NK will collapse all by itself.
As for the probablity to sell nuke to terrorists - don't make me laugh. Radioactivity sources now are monitored so carefully that I doub't you'll be able to bring a nuke to America undetected. Frankly I think that this particular threat will be neutralized long before any real danger could present itself.
Attack NK now - USA will become really an 'Evil Empire' and thousands of Koreans will die for nothing.
Send me a PM if you need me.
I dont want to attack them either, as I do see your point, I think the tough economic sanctions are the way to go with these folks. Only becuase of the issues that South Korea is right in there path......
The reason we dont let them boast is because for the fact that they do some stupid things that involve innocent people. Example: South Korea
Funny how you bring up the CIA in NK, if you can, you should watch this movie.
Behind Enemy Lines II Axis of Evil (2006)
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/behind_ ... s_of_evil/
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