They beat only weak ones. They don't interfere with China, for example.Originally Posted by basurero
Well, they aren't suffering much retaliation from messing with North Korea and Iran's nuclear programs, at least not from any nations that matter. They are just brainwashing the western world to believe their propaganda about the "axis of evil" and "people who hate freedom" and all the rest of that nonsense.
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First of all, the western world doesn't believe that at all--Europe is for the majority anti-US. And it's not like you guys aren't messing with Iran and NK's nuclear programs--how many times do I have to keep saying you're selling them fuel?! And how can you not say that NK and Iran are not evil governments? They kill their citizens for crying out loud. If you speak out against Kim Jung-Il or the Iranian leader, boom--you're in jail or you're executed.
Saudi Arabia is selling you fuel also (i mean oil). What do you have against it? I think that only energy can help country to become prosperous. No energy = no industry. No industry = no money. Why don't you want Iran (or any other 'third-world country' for that matter) to become a modern industrial state and get rid of medieval religious fanatism? Industrial countries tend to have citizens live in cities which makes them more tolerant and cosmopolitan. Keeping them in villages and denying them their own energy produces more antagonism against you.First of all, the western world doesn't believe that at all--Europe is for the majority anti-US. And it's not like you guys aren't messing with Iran and NK's nuclear programs--how many times do I have to keep saying you're selling them fuel?!
How much do you know about nuclear fission?
Do you realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE to make bombs out of fuel we're selling. Moreover - as it has been already said here - every gram of that fuel is returned to us after it produced energy in reactors that are UNABLE to produce U-235 or Pu-239.
FACTS PLEASE?And how can you not say that NK and Iran are not evil governments? They kill their citizens for crying out loud.
It's a big overstatement. People of these countries doesn't have freedom of speech but what that has to do with the subject of the discussion? And what makes you think that civilian rights are above all? As far as I know about eastern civilizations they don't pay much attention to a personal achievements but to achievements of the whole nation instead.If you speak out against Kim Jung-Il or the Iranian leader, boom--you're in jail or you're executed.
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I would have nothing against Iran becoming an industrial state if it weren't lead by a bunch of psycho radical jihadist Muslims who want to send the world up in flames. And before you say Israel wants to do the same thing, why are YOU against the US selling them nuclear fuel? Don't you want them to become a modern industrial state?
Only when they do their government will become less radical. And not the other way around. You're confusing reasons and consequences.I would have nothing against Iran becoming an industrial state if it weren't lead by a bunch of psycho radical jihadist Muslims who want to send the world up in flames. And before you say Israel wants to do the same thing, why are YOU against the US selling them nuclear fuel? Don't you want them to become a modern industrial state?
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And how can you prove that? How does having more money and power and resources make you less radical?
I could substitute a few of the words in that statement for other similar terms and say pretty much the same thing about the US.
If they could find a way I'm sure they wouldn't hesitate.They beat only weak ones. They don't interfere with China, for example.
Of course they are not great, no government is, but America hardly has the right to claim the moral high ground. They roam the globe starting illegal wars and killing thousands of innocent civillians, yet they still preach about how great they and their wonderful values are (what values? McDonalds?). We want democracy to spread the globe, just like in America... and who cares what anyone else wants.And how can you not say that NK and Iran are not evil governments? They kill their citizens for crying out loud. If you speak out against Kim Jung-Il or the Iranian leader, boom--you're in jail or you're executed.
Economic conditions dictate the rules. When the majority of population is relatively poor, they seek changes and those whom they may consider as the main reason of their misfortunes.And how can you prove that? How does having more money and power and resources make you less radical?
Never, and I'll repeat never any population will think badly of their government when some external force gets involved. They unite instead.
When people become more and more rich, when they have a good job, a house and some other benefits of civilization they become interested in keeping their wealth. The educational level increases and in this case, any government that will try to interfere with that will be overthrown.
So in order to change a political situation in any given country you should decide what do you want to have at the end. Whether it would be a poor country with some hostile and xenofobic populace or a rich country with open-minded people.
Every nation has the government that suits best the current political and economical situation in the country. If you want to change the government - change those conditions. If you change the government by external military force - all you'll get is even more radical and hostile government at the end.
History shows many examples of that. Pity US government hasn't discovered their way to a library yet
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Hey, I didn't write that. It's RusskiSlav's
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Germany'45? Japan'45? Cambodia'78?
I never said the US had the moral high ground. In fact we have tons of internal problems of our own that I don't approve of. However let me set this straight: The only wars I can think of that the US has started are Desert Storm and Iraq/Afghanistan. (And Yugoslavia bombings but I didn't agree with that so don't blast me). We did not start WW1 or WW2, you can thank Gavrillo Princip and Hitler for that. And we did not start Vietnam, we entered later. It was originally between France and Vietnam.
And speaking of killing thousands of innocent civilians, how do you have room to talk about that when your own country, under Stalin, killed MILLIONS of innocent civilians?
I dont know of any war that did not involve the killing of innocent civlians, so can you please enlighten me on one?
Iraq, Iran, and North Korea have been around way longer then the US has, however they are still a "poor" country? Why is that, is it because the dictators get rich and the people get poor? Why dont they have advanced medicine? How about plumbing, heating, in there homes? How about food for everyone? I just dont understand that especially for
those folks in Iran/Iraq where they do have Oil as a major income in there country.
And someone states we only pick on the week ones?
Come on Russia was involved in Afghanistan as well. Are you saying Afghanistan is a powerful country? What about Chechnya are they strong too? Lots of civilians dying there too, or am I reading into too much American Media?
Here are some others just to jog your memory:
Latvian Partisan War
Lithuanian Partisan War
Hungarian Rebellion
Warsaw Pact Invasion of Czechoslovakia to terminate Prague Spring
Sino-Soviet Border Clash
Osh Riots, Kyrgyzstan
South Ossetian Rebellion (Secesion from Georgia)
The list goes on and on, so talking about picking on the week or "illegal" wars, maybe you need to look at your own back yard.
Here are the Wars America was involved in starting from WWII
WWII - Not started by US, we were attacked. But sure damn finished it, many historians all over the world believe that the US saved MILLIONS of people by ending this war with the 2 Nukes and with the aid in the European front. MILLIONS!
Note: Japan was at WAR with Russia as well!
Korean War - North Korea attacked South Korea - The US went to the UN council to vote on a resolution to furnish assistance to the South Koreans.
We are too nice.
Vietnam War - Started by the French attacking Vietnam. This of course was a huge impact to Russia as well, because this as well as other wars had to do with Communism! With the effect that if one country falls to communism the country next to him would be next.
Talk about trying to get all countries to follow a government! All about communism!
The US was involved because of that reason and that reason alone.
Desert Storm - Started by Iraq invading poor week Kuwait.
US could NOT do anything unless request for assistance was issues.
King Fahd of Saudi Arabia requested the assistance and approved of the plans to kick
Iraq back to where they came from. Again, we are just too nice. Helping all these folks.... What you think if we did not that Iraq would NOT sell us OIL. Come on thats what they wanted, all the money from the oil. Not to mention that the US also protected many other countries from missiles being sent by Saddam to Kuwait, Saudia Arabia and Israel.
Enduring Freedom - Started by Al Qaeda by using planes to attack the US. Killing 1000s of innocent civilians and damaging our economy.
Maybe we should have just sat back? Yeah right!
Iraqi Freedom - Started by Many Countries against Iraq for possible Nuclear Weapons, they had plenty of time to let in the folks to visit the sites etc.. instead they played games. This was with Many Countries not just the US. Here is just a note for some of you. If I had a bomb and you gave me 6 months notice before coming and checking my house, do YOU really think I would keep that bomb in my house? Hmm.... I know they still have not found evidence, but again, here is a dictator
with a long history of killing his own people and not only making threats but coming through with them. Ie.. Attacking Kuwait/Iran in the last 20 years to name a few.
These were done internationally. Tens of millions dead.Germany'45? Japan'45? Cambodia'78?
Korea'53, Cuba'61, Vietnam'75
These were attempted by US alone. US failed. Hundreds of thousands dead.
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Yay, thank you Tobi! That's exactly the point I wanted to get across, but you said it a lot better than I could have!
Ramil, if I may use your line, I am too much of a realist to believe that bullsh|t. We did not start the Korean War, we entered later. YOU started the whole Cuba thing with your missiles, and we did not start Vietnam, we entered later. And the USSR was in Vietnam and Korea too, so by your logic you're guilty too. Between Stalin's gulags and the Soviet invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Finland, and Afghanistan, hundreds of MILLIONS died.
Firstly Caucasus has been conquered more than two hundred years ago and was a part of Russia since then.
You're right of course. By pointing at USSR and saying that it was wrong. You did that back during the Cold War and you keep doing that still. But why are you doing the same things yourself now? USA shows imperial ambitions. That's only natural for a country at its stage of development. It's not good or bad. It's just a natural process. Empires rise and empires fall.
Attitides that are flowing from the White House frighten more and more. US has power and ability to exterminate the whole world. People are frightened that such mighty a power is in hands of such ... irresponsible people. (I put it as mildly as possible).
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I am not saying that the USSR is wrong, just stating that folks cannot point to the US for starting or creating wars when they have done the same if not more.Firstly Caucasus has been conquered more than two hundred years ago and was a part of Russia since then.
You're right of course. By pointing at USSR and saying that it was wrong. You did that back during the Cold War and you keep doing that still. But why are you doing the same things yourself now? USA shows imperial ambitions. That's only natural for a country at its stage of development. It's not good or bad. It's just a natural process. Empires rise and empires fall.
Attitides that are flowing from the White House frighten more and more. US has power and ability to exterminate the whole world. People are frightened that such mighty a power is in hands of such ... irresponsible people. (I put it as mildly as possible).
I can see your point that attitudes are flowing from the White House that actually frighten countries. However I dont see where Russia is Frieghtened or China, thats because they too understand the issues with dictators and unstable governments. The only thing they do is Veto their right. Yes we are one of the few powerful countries but we dont over run a government and call it the US. Look at Japan, it really should be called part of the US for there efforts in attacking us and having us waste Billions on the war effort and not to mention many lives. But we did not, we actually helped them rebuild and look at them today! Where would we all be without Sony!
How do you all just love that argument. USA didn't start. It just got drawn into it. Why?Ramil, if I may use your line, I am too much of a realist to believe that bullsh|t. We did not start the Korean War, we entered later. YOU started the whole Cuba thing with your missiles, and we did not start Vietnam, we entered later. And the USSR was in Vietnam and Korea too, so by your logic you're guilty too. Between Stalin's gulags and the Soviet invasions of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Finland, and Afghanistan, hundreds of MILLIONS died.
I won't believe that bullsh|t about human rights and democracy either. It was about resources and influence. USA DID want to get involved in any of those wars otherwise it wouldn't participate at all.
USSR was subduing rebellions AFTER territories had been captured. USA didn't even bother to actually capture that territories.
USSR had collapsed. You continued that race.
You'll finish the same way then, you know.
USSR at least 'struggled' to build communism in the whole world. People believed in it and lived on that dream. I know it because I saw and still see those people who ruined their lives for a dream. America struggles for democracy... or what? Who believes that sh|t, by the way? We're not talking about or mutual gloomy past now. We're talking about the present situation. I don't care who was right in the past. I only see who's doing what now.
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So did the Soviet Union back in the arms race
Don't point your nukes at Basurero, he is from New Zeland, after all. He's completely innocent in the whole situation.I am not saying that the USSR is wrong, just stating that folks cannot point to the US for starting or creating wars when they have done the same if not more.
If USA will step in some sh.t, we all will find ourselves in that sh.t. It's a price for being 'nuclear country'.I can see your point that attitudes are flowing from the White House that actually frighten countries. However I dont see where Russia is Frieghtened or China, thats because they too understand the issues with dictators and unstable governments
USA has showed already that UN don't impress it any more. 'A sandbox for African kinglets' as someone called UN once.The only thing they do is Veto their right.
The Japanese are wise. They seized the whole world without any bloodshed. I prefer them as my 'oppressors'.Yes we are one of the few powerful countries but we dont over run a government and call it the US. Look at Japan, it really should be called part of the US for there efforts in attacking us and having us waste Billions on the war effort and not to mention many lives. But we did not, we actually helped them rebuild and look at them today! Where would we all be without Sony!
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