Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

Thanks for that. The USSR is very confusing and what I still don't get is how it could be the Ukrainian SSR when it wasn't even a country yet. Unless it became a country after it joined the USSR.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Thanks for that. The USSR is very confusing and what I still don't get is how it could be the Ukrainian SSR when it wasn't even a country yet. Unless it became a country after it joined the USSR.

Well, it's a large place, far away from you, and you weren't even born when it existed. So no worries. You could understand modern day Russia and other ex USSR republics better from knowing that though. PS - I edit the article and added more info!


Also, it's kind of nice to show off my knowledge about this!
Finally some use for otherwise useless info.
Anything else you want to know?

I had to learn TONS about the USSR in school. What city makes tractors, cars, cotton, lamps or grew different crops..... What different dams, railroads, canals etc were built, why and by whom. How was the USSR governed, etc. Oh, and "what's the difference between a kolkhoz and a sovkhoz?". Missing that, cost me a grade. I still don't know it.

Then just as I left school, the USSR was history!

Then I went to uni and one of the subjects I took was Political science. The hot topic du jour was all the new ex USSR countries. Re-learn everything, including cities which I previously memorized, but now had new names!

I wrote a rather long paper (assigned topic) about harassment and mistreatment of women in Uzbekistan after Uzbek independence. It was very odd to AGAIN come across the same stuff, but now from the perspective of it being a new country and totally different conditions.
Central Asia was suddenly dirt poor, and extreme islam flourished.

The glimpses you got regarding the ethnical situation in the USSR was always mulitultural, happy-clappy bliss with folk costumes, cute songs and primitive people enlightened and educated. The reality might not have been quite that romantic though, and in reality there were probably lots of conflicts brewing under the lid. As the USSR dissolved and broke up, all of this came to the surface, with countries like Saudi Arabia and the US and probably others adding fuel to the flames via "humanitarian" and religious organisations.

And if this was confusing for ME, imagine for the people living through it, for real, while criminality, corruption and shortages were making every day a struggle.
Respect to those who came through all that with their heads still held high!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well, it's a large place, far away from you, and you weren't even born when it existed. So no worries. You could understand modern day Russia and other ex USSR republics better from knowing that though. PS - I edit the article and added more info!
Also, it's kind of nice to show off my knowledge about this!
Finally some use for otherwise useless info.
Anything else you want to know?
I had to learn TONS about the USSR in school. What city makes tractors, cars, cotton, lamps or grew different crops..... What different dams, railroads, canals etc were built, why and by whom. How was the USSR governed, etc. Oh, and "what's the difference between a kolkhoz and a sovkhoz?". Missing that, cost me a grade. I still don't know it.
Then just as I left school, the USSR was history!
Then I went to uni and one of the subjects I took was Political science. The hot topic du jour was all the new ex USSR countries. Re-learn everything, including cities which I previously memorized, but now had new names!
I wrote a rather long paper (assigned topic) about harassment and mistreatment of women in Uzbekistan after Uzbek independence. It was very odd to AGAIN come across the same stuff, but now from the perspective of it being a new country and totally different conditions.
Central Asia was suddenly dirt poor, and extreme islam flourished.
The glimpses you got regarding the ethnical situation in the USSR was always mulitultural, happy-clappy bliss with folk costumes, cute songs and primitive people enlightened and educated. The reality might not have been quite that romantic though, and in reality there were probably lots of conflicts brewing under the lid. As the USSR dissolved and broke up, all of this came to the surface, with countries like Saudi Arabia and the US and probably others adding fuel to the flames via "humanitarian" and religious organisations.

And if this was confusing for ME, imagine for the people living through it, for real, while criminality, corruption and shortages were making every day a struggle.
Respect to those who came through all that with their heads still held high!

Plus I will have to study the history of the USSR anyway. I've already started studying the history of the Russian Empire so I have to finish that too. US history and the history of India were tons easier. Russian history is massive!
I'm learning where the major lakes, rivers, and mountains are and I learned why the Dnieper river was so important to Kievan-Rus and how that changed to the Volga after the Middle Ages. I also learned about the nuclear test sites in NE Kazakhstan and on Novaya Zemlya and a lot about the Baikonur, Plesetsk, and the new Vostochny cosmodromes. I even learned how to read Russian street maps but that still leaves tons of questions like where important historical places are, the dams, airports, and some history for each of the major cities. I know a little of the histories for Nizhny Novgorod, Saint Peterburg, Omsk, Sevastopol, Simferopol, and Moscow but again, that leaves a lot more.
So yeah, anything you can tell me about Russia and the USSR will be very helpful and very very appreciated.
Btw, I can't even imagine what it was like in Russia from 1991-1999 but I read that it was a total nightmare.

Originally Posted by hddscan

It's politics, I don't know what you'd expect from a public speech.
But anyway if you want to see the real masterpiece of political lies, you might wanna read Jen Psaki quotes.

Actually the reasons behind that are mostly economical, I think, energy sector sanctions would be very painful for Russian economy, so Russia is holding its horses, for now.

Russia was not in a position to do anything about it, that time Russia was a broke state with no power to make any big political decisions.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about how messed up everything was when the break-up happened so yeah, it would be difficult for President Putin to explain why it happened.
Jen Psaki? LOL! She's too stupid to even be funny and she's not a very good liar. But neither are Obama, Kerry, Nuland, Biden, or McCain. They all tell so many lies that they probably can't even manage them all even with a PC. But hey, a lot of the lies are too obvious to even hide.
Anyway, I wish Russia could move in with it's army and help the Donbass. Poroshenko's pure evil and that "anti-terrorist" thing needs to be stopped! It's destroying peoples lives and killing innocent citizens, even kids. It's military political oppression.

@ Basil
good and accurate summary in my opinion
with only exception of the last sentence I agree with you (i think the state of Ukraine will continue to exist, albeit maybe not in its current form)

Originally Posted by eisenherz

@ Basil
good and accurate summary in my opinion
with only exception of the last sentence I agree with you (i think the state of Ukraine will continue to exist, albeit maybe not in its current form)

Thanks. I agree that some Ukrainian state will remain but the chances it will return to the status quo which was present until the recent tragic events are zero in my opinion.

I only see 2 possibilities for Ukraine.
1. A whole Ukriane (without Crimea) full of only ethnic Ukrainians since all the ethnic-Russian Ukrainians will be living in Russia.
2. A smaller Ukraine (without NovoRossiya).

The extreme anti-Russian violence of the new government and Poroshenko has created too much hate and distrust. Imo, nothing can ever fix that and it will never be forgotten. So if Ukrainians and Russians try to live together after all the violence then it will just lead to new revolutions. With that much violence in only 25 years, can you imagine what can happen in 50.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I only see 2 possibilities for Ukraine.
1. A whole Ukriane (without Crimea) full of only ethnic Ukrainians since all the ethnic-Russian Ukrainians will be living in Russia.
2. A smaller Ukraine (without NovoRossiya).

It's not about the conflict between Ukrainians and Russians. From 1/3 to 1/2 of population of Russian Federation have Ukrainian heritage and vice versa. Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. The conflict is more like between Russophobic Russians/Ukrainians etc. and Pro-Russian Russians/Ukrainians etc. You underestimate the current level of hysterical propaganda in Ukraine. For example my wife's mother called yesterday and asked why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians. Ordinary people in Ukraine believe that all these atrocities which currently happen made by Russian regular army by personal Putin's orders and poor Ukraine soldiers are defending these lands and trying to save civilians by the cost of their lives. But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth.

Originally Posted by Basil77

after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth.

А я боюсь, что это растянется на поколения. Потому что люди очень не любят (или даже просто не могут) отказываться от того, во что свято верили.

Originally Posted by lodka

А я боюсь, что это растянется на поколения. Потому что люди очень не любят (или даже просто не могут) отказываться от того, во что свято верили.

Да я говорю об элементарном вранье. То что женщин, стариков и детей на Донбассе сейчас убивают укро-каратели, а не российская армия и лично Путин. В тех масштабах, в которых это происходит, замолчать и свалить всё на Путина просто не получится. Другое дело, что "свидомые" ублюдки всегда найдут этому оправдание. Я же говорю про нормальных людей, для которых убийство беззащитных детей, женщин и стариков не может быть ничем оправдано.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Да я говорю об элементарном вранье. То что женщин, стариков и детей на Донбассе сейчас убивают укро-каратели, а не российская армия и лично Путин.

Так я вот и боюсь, что даже в этом многих украинцев будет невозможно убедить. Надеюсь ошибиться...

Originally Posted by Basil77

Да я говорю об элементарном вранье. То что женщин, стариков и детей на Донбассе сейчас убивают укро-каратели, а не российская армия и лично Путин. В тех масштабах, в которых это происходит, замолчать и свалить всё на Путина просто не получится. Другое дело, что "свидомые" ублюдки всегда найдут этому оправдание. Я же говорю про нормальных людей, для которых убийство беззащитных детей, женщин и стариков не может быть ничем оправдано.

А есть ли доказательства целенаправленных убийств беззащитных мирных жителей в том регионе вообще, и в частности, подобных убийств совершенных украинской армией? Вы ведь понимаете, что убийства вооруженных агрессоров никак не могут учитываться в этой статистике. Не вижу причин не ликвидировать тех с оружием в руках воюющих против украинской армии в том регионе - и чем скорее те сепаратисты будут все положены, тем скорее наступит мир.

Originally Posted by Basil77

It's not about the conflict between Ukrainians and Russians. From 1/3 to 1/2 of population of Russian Federation have Ukrainian heritage and vice versa. Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. The conflict is more like between Russophobic Russians/Ukrainians etc. and Pro-Russian Russians/Ukrainians etc. You underestimate the current level of hysterical propaganda in Ukraine. For example my wife's mother called yesterday and asked why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians. Ordinary people in Ukraine believe that all these atrocities which currently happen made by Russian regular army by personal Putin's orders and poor Ukraine soldiers are defending these lands and trying to save civilians by the cost of their lives. But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth.

That's what makes it really confusing and I didn't know there were Russians fighting on the Nazi side. So basically it's just that some Ukrainian citizens want to join with the West and the others want to stay with the East. That sounds a lot like the American civil war.
But yeah, I do know that Poroshenko has been trying to control the media and that Russian journalists are being killed. Well, I hope more people like Mark Franchetti can help get the truth to those people.

Originally Posted by Basil77

It's not about the conflict between Ukrainians and Russians. From 1/3 to 1/2 of population of Russian Federation have Ukrainian heritage and vice versa. Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. The conflict is more like between Russophobic Russians/Ukrainians etc. and Pro-Russian Russians/Ukrainians etc. You underestimate the current level of hysterical propaganda in Ukraine. For example my wife's mother called yesterday and asked why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians. Ordinary people in Ukraine believe that all these atrocities which currently happen made by Russian regular army by personal Putin's orders and poor Ukraine soldiers are defending these lands and trying to save civilians by the cost of their lives. But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth.

LOL! "Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. " Huh?

Some of you guys are good for comedy.

".....why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians....But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth" - > where did the separatists get all their artillery and tanks? Just got them out of thin air I suppose.

Putin doesn't give a **** about ethnic Ukrainians or ethnic Russians. This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians IDIOTS and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice. You are uninformed about your own country. You're not ashamed AT ALL?!? Wow. It's really fascinating.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians IDIOTS and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice.

Wtf are you even talking about.

Originally Posted by dtrq

Wtf are you even talking about.

WTF? Perhaps, this?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gat-hrgeajQ

Originally Posted by 14Russian

where did the separatists get all their artillery and tanks?

That's something new
AFAIK the rebels don't have artillery, except mortars, which they got from multiple military bases in Ukraine, there were reports that the rebels have taken control over several of those.
As for the tanks, I believe officially only three tanks were seen to be in possession of rebels, both sides confirmed that, and those tanks were T64BV models and only Ukraine has them. And Kiev's army already claimed that they have destroyed two out three of those tanks, so it is unclear what is all the fuss about?
There were also unconfirmed reports that the rebels have taken control over military repair base in Artyomovsk and got themselves over 200 tanks in semi-working conditions and several "Grad" rocket launchers, but again, it's unconfirmed

Originally Posted by Basil77

The conflict is more like between Russophobic Russians/Ukrainians etc. and Pro-Russian Russians/Ukrainians etc.

Russophobic = Soviet.

Maybe Putin is playing some kind of game, or maybe the uprising was genuinely unexpected and put him in a very hard position.

It seems to me that Russian media has taken a very strong stance in favour of the rebels, while Putin for some reason is sticking with platitudes and non-sequiteurs.
But I think Lavrov has been brilliant and said some really good things. He is an amazingly talented statesman for sure and come across as really sympathetic.

I think what President Putin is doing is very logical and it will help Southeast Ukraine more than a show of force will.
He knows it was the US that started the "Ukrainian crisis". He also knows that the EU is being influenced by the US. President Putin can't get the US on his side but he does have a chance to get the EU on his side.
If he can prove to the EU that Russia isn't arming or training the pro-Russians then they will have to accept the fact that it's mostly just Ukrainian citizens defending themselves, their homes, and their families. When the EU and European countries have enough evidence then they will have to accept the truth - that the "Ukrainian crisis" is really just Ukrainian government oppression of the Ukrainian people and that the US is actively supporting government oppression.

The truth will be revealed and when it is, Europe will know that the US supports military oppression, not democracy. President Putin is helping Europe to learn the truth and that's very important.
Imo, that will do more to help Southeast Ukraine than accusations that the US/EU would only dismiss.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

The truth will be revealed and when it is, Europe will know that the US supports military oppression, not democracy. President Putin is helping Europe to learn the truth and that's very important.