Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

The Donetsk region voted 89.07% for self-determination. For Lugansk, it was 96.2%.

Ok, the question is, how many percent participated, how honest was the vote counting etc...?
This to me seems less clearcut than Crimea.
It very much appears like those who are against self determination did not bother voting. The question is how many were that?

For this particular referendum, sure it gives an indication, but I don't have the impression that it would stand for much international scrutiny, whereas Crimea would have...

Not to say it's phony or that they deliberately cheated - I wouldn't know, and clearly a lot of people are FOR.
But what precisely did they vote for? They had nothing concrete beyond "more self-determination" and after the referendum the first thing they do is call Moscow and ask for annexation.

Although I sympathise with these people it's just not as professional or convincing as it could be.
Which is why it seems ludicrous to believe that Russia is pulling the strings.

And I pity the leaders of the Donetsk and Lugansk people states.
If they can't pull something off, they are at risk of some very long prison sentences I imagine.

All of this makes me think of a REAL and genuine working class uprising situation. Even the language they use. It's not polished and it's not impressive. Remains to see what they can pull off and whether they are all alone or have friends in Russia.... I have a lot of sympathy for them.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Ok, the question is, how many percent participated, how honest was the vote counting etc...?
This to me seems less clearcut than Crimea.
It very much appears like those who are against self determination did not bother voting. The question is how many were that?

A good video about that:

Not yet,IMHO. He still needs formally postpone reject the plea to show himself as a proponent of Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Croc, remember his final goal is not DPR & LPR but Novorossia as a whole. Blessing is in disguise.))

Originally Posted by diogen_

These self-style people's republics have already asked Russia to bring them back into the fold today. Actually, it’s the ultimate sanity check for Putin now. He must unequivocally reject the request and reiterate the claim for dialog about federalization with Kiev. Otherwise, consequence for his country may be very close to dire.))

Exactly. It's a long long way to Novorossiya...

Originally Posted by Hanna

Ok, the question is, how many percent participated, how honest was the vote counting etc...?
This to me seems less clearcut than Crimea.
It very much appears like those who are against self determination did not bother voting. The question is how many were that?

For this particular referendum, sure it gives an indication, but I don't have the impression that it would stand for much international scrutiny, whereas Crimea would have...

Not to say it's phony or that they deliberately cheated - I wouldn't know, and clearly a lot of people are FOR.
But what precisely did they vote for? They had nothing concrete beyond "more self-determination" and after the referendum the first thing they do is call Moscow and ask for annexation.

Although I sympathise with these people it's just not as professional or convincing as it could be.
Which is why it seems ludicrous to believe that Russia is pulling the strings.

And I pity the leaders of the Donetsk and Lugansk people states.
If they can't pull something off, they are at risk of some very long prison sentences I imagine.

All of this makes me think of a REAL and genuine working class uprising situation. Even the language they use. It's not polished and it's not impressive. Remains to see what they can pull off and whether they are all alone or have friends in Russia.... I have a lot of sympathy for them.

Voter turnout was about 75% in both regions. In Lugansk there were 30 International Observers. None of the Observers registered for the Donetsk referendum and they were invited. But there were hundreds of journalists in Donetsk and they were watching for cheating. A journalist caught one woman cheating and reported it. Btw, voter turnout for both Obama elections was about 65%.
Also, anyone who decided not to vote chose to let the voters make the decision. Since they didnt want a choice they didn't get the choice so they have to accept the results.
The same is true in the Obama elections. The 35% of registered voters that didn't vote had to accept the results.

Because the Observers and journalists were watching for cheating - and the voter turnout was that high - I accept the results of those votes. But it could be the start of a civil war.
The leader of the Peoples Republic of Donetsk said they need to work fast and the first things on the agenda was securing the economy and re-building the military in the region. He also said that anyone that wouldn't swear an oath would be deported to Ukraine.
That's why talks are very important right now because if the Ukraine military tries to destabilize the new Republics, they will fight back and may even ask Russia for military assistance.
It's a huge level up from just being labelled terrorists.
Btw, I don't understand why they were talking about annexation either.

About Novorossiya, you can see in the list that 3 of the regions were in the Russian Federation before the conflict, not in Ukraine: Krasnodar krai, Rostov oblast, and the Republic of Adygea. Also, the slow creation of Novorossiya involved a lot of signed treaties.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Also, anyone who decided not to vote chose to let the voters make the decision. Since they didnt want a choice they didn't get the choice so they have to accept the results.
.

For that argument to be valid, the 'election' would have to be free and fair in the first place. And that would imply: "no fraud and no intimidation." - both were not given. Do you honestly think any person in this referendum could have openly been against the 'separation' and vote 'pro-Kiev' without fear for his safety? Secondly I have seen documented instances where the same person voted at different times (voted more than once); and it is common knowledge that persons were allowed to vote on behalf of others. So this hardly qualifies for 'free and fair'. Having said this, i nevertheless believe that the majority in a genuinely fee and fair referendum would have been for independence; but not 85-90% of the vote.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

Do you honestly think any person in this referendum could have openly been against the 'separation' and vote 'pro-Kiev' without fear for his safety?

I do.
It's only Right Sector that knifes people because of their opinion.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

For that argument to be valid, the 'election' would have to be free and fair in the first place. And that would imply: "no fraud and no intimidation." - both were not given. Do you honestly think any person in this referendum could have openly been against the 'separation' and vote 'pro-Kiev' without fear for his safety? Secondly I have seen documented instances where the same person voted at different times (voted more than once); and it is common knowledge that persons were allowed to vote on behalf of others. So this hardly qualifies for 'free and fair'. Having said this, i nevertheless believe that the majority in a genuinely fee and fair referendum would have been for independence; but not 85-90% of the vote.

I wouldn't honestly think that in the last Obama election people coulda been openly against Obama in a lot of cities in the US. But there were no mass executions here after the election and I haven't seen any news feeds about any mass executions of the 12% of the voters that voted against the referendum either.
Tbh, there have been lots of cases of voter fraud and voter intimidation in the US but the outcomes were still accepted. Another phrase that Americans like is "Innocent until proven guilty.". So if I don't see any proof of mass voter fraud or intimidation or both then I still stand by what I said. I accept the outcome of the referendums... until I'm proven wrong. And a few isolated cases of cheating isn't enough to prove that.

But those issues aren't as important as what the vote enabled - the rebuilding of those regions as separate, organized States with their own Military bases. And that's probably what the referendums were all about - to create a strong and accepted (by the people at least) Military front against the deadly assaults of the Ukrainian Military forces.

It seems like everyone at that school is expected to support the new government in Kiev.

But in school, as a teenager - almost nobody has the strength to go against school expectation, or against the opinion of peers. I recall going along with all sorts of manifestations - occasionally contradicting - because of peer pressure and social expectations. There's probably no group that's easier to manipulate and stir up for a cause.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I recall going along with all sorts of manifestations - occasionally contradicting - because of peer pressure and social expectations.

Were there appeals to kill someone (maybe representatives of some nation) on those manifestations????

Originally Posted by Lampada

Took them so little time to bring the "right people" in there =((

By the way, if the teacher tells them what to wear and threatens them with prison for being "non-conformant", it's her who's living in a fascist state, whether it's real or imaginary. For the definition of a fascist state is close to "absolutely oppressive totalitarian dictatorship with full control over people's will". And it has nothing to do with nazism, nazis or any past wars, fascist state prototypes still exist on this planet.

And that Magadan thing... Sounded totally horrible and disgusting in that context, but it reminded me of a soviet joke (sad one) --- "Q. What's the biggest country of the world? A. Ukraine. Its western borders are in the middle Europe, and its prisons are a strait away from Alaska." ... History repeats itself...

Originally Posted by Lampada

Очередная дочь офицера. Напоминает #sochiproblems. Вот ещё из той же серии:

Замечательные родители всегда получаются из политических активистов - готовы использовать своих детей как инструмент для любых , даже мелких провокаций, лишь бы хоть малюсенький камешек в сторону противника кинуть.

Всё, как в сказке: чем дальше, тем страшней.

Ukraine submits proof of Russian covert action


Separatists May Be Exaggerating Ukraine Referendum Turnout By 300%

I see Russian SPETSNAZ equipped 'separatists' and cities that had 30% of the normal voting stations open.

Go home Vlad, you're drunk.

Originally Posted by capecoddah

Ukraine submits proof of Russian covert action



Separatists May Be Exaggerating Ukraine Referendum Turnout By 300%

I see Russian SPETSNAZ equipped 'separatists' and cities that had 30% of the normal voting stations open.

Go home Vlad, you're drunk.

At this point I don't think anyone cares.

Would you want to be part of a country where citizens are burned alive because of what language they speak, where there are statues of known Nazis and where the military shoots into a crowd, on Peace Day?!
Where citizens are being attacked from the air by UN flagged helicopters. Where there is a coup d'etat sponsored by the USA every 5-10 years, the country is going bankrupt, and anything worth having is sold to foreign interests while the average income is a few 100 USD per month.

I'd take my chances with almost anything else, if I was them.

Originally Posted by capecoddah

Ukraine submits proof of Russian covert action



Separatists May Be Exaggerating Ukraine Referendum Turnout By 300%

I see Russian SPETSNAZ equipped 'separatists' and cities that had 30% of the normal voting stations open.

Go home Vlad, you're drunk.

(Deleted. L.) For your information "Vlad" is diminutive for "Vladislav". Diminutives for "Vladimir" are "Vova" and "Volodya". And for those who think that diminutive "Slava" is for "Vladislav" it's wrong. "Slava" goes for "Vyacheslav".
(Deleted. L.)

Originally Posted by Basil77

(Deleted. L.) For your information "Vlad" is diminutive for "Vladislav". Diminutives for "Vladimir" are "Vova" and "Volodya". And for those who think that diminutive "Slava" is for "Vladislav" it's wrong. "Slava" goes for "Vyacheslav".
(Deleted. L.)

Of us all, it's only it-ogo who belongs there, but his posts have been rarely showing up here recently...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Of us all, it's only it-ogo who belongs there,

I liked to read their Internet forum. It was a pro-ukrainian forum. It doesn't work since yesterday. There were messages about some danger for the administrator.

I didn't know it's such a different world there. Many people (not people on the forum, they were just talking about it) genuinely believe that they need DPR for protection from Pravyi Sector coming in and killing them for speaking Russian. Unbelievable. I thought it was just a pretext for joining Russia and getting bigger pensions, but no, apparently these people exist.

-------------------
Addition:
A new forum has been set up.

Originally Posted by Lampada

If that's true, it's not unusual, even in our country. Some kids in the US have been bullied by teachers and students to the point of suicide.
If it's not true then using kids as political tools is probably the worst thing a "human" can do.

@ Basil77. I'm still trying to image President Putin as a Berkut fighter on the Maidan in Kiev...

Originally Posted by capecoddah

Ukraine submits proof of Russian covert action


Separatists May Be Exaggerating Ukraine Referendum Turnout By 300%

I see Russian SPETSNAZ equipped 'separatists' and cities that had 30% of the normal voting stations open.

Go home Vlad, you're drunk.

1. The director of the CIA admitted that the CIA was working closely with the interim government in Kiev to "restore order in Ukraine". That was the same day the Ukrainian military was sent to attack ethnic Russians.
2. So if the ethnic Russians really did get any advice from Russia, good on them.
3. Ethnic Russians dressing and acting like ethnic Russians... I'm so surprised... not.
4. The RPG-27 looks a lot like the RPG-30. And I'm never surprised when weapons appear where they maybe shouldn't be. The US left a ton of weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, and other countries.
5. Forget the who's who. Their "evidence" wouldn't survive a budget-priced lawyer in court.

Forbes is a decent magazine but they do allow total nutjobs to publish commentaries sometimes... Nobody's perfect.
Btw, I bookmarked both articles and stored them in my comics folder.
Go home EurActive and Forbes, you're both drunk.