Thread: Latest from Ukraine

Originally Posted by Basil77

Я обещал Кроку не реагировать на твои реплики, так что промолчу.

Да что тут скажешь, когда попал пальцем в небо.

Imo the only reason the Russian troops were in Crimea was to keep order and prevent violence. NOT to control the vote.
I saw videos and the voters looked really happy. I didn't see any guns pointed at the voters.
But the real question is this - When was the referendum of the Crimean people to join Ukraine? Khrushchev did NOT have the authority to give part of Russia to Ukraine. So how can giving Crimea to Ukraine be legal? It's NOT legal to give part of Russia to another country without even a referendum.

If the US gives lethal aid to Ukraine then that shames America. There's already way too much killing in Ukraine. Instead of offering lethal aid, our country should be supporting the peace plan in Minsk.
The Secretary of the Russian Security Council - Nikolai Petrushev - said that if the US gives lethal aid to Ukraine that Russia would retaliate. But not military, only diplomatic measures. He believes that the US offering lethal aid to Ukraine was just a method for provoking war with Russia and I agree. The violent provocations from our country need to stop.
Imo, it's a Russian-Ukrainian problem that should NOT be solved by the US. It can only be solved by diplomacy and the peace plans in Minsk.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Я обещал Кроку не реагировать на твои реплики, так что промолчу.

Да, лучше сберечь бисер. Но если мы всё-таки получим адекватный ответ на простейший вопрос http://masterrussian.net/f16/latest-...tml#post269171 тогда, может быть, можно будет обсудить снятие крокоморатория.
Израилю Европа и Америка обычно дают провести свои переодические АТО пару-тройку дней, не больше. Ну, максимум НЕДЕЛЮ!! А украинское АТО с благославления той же Европы и Америки идёт уже почти год, И поскольку, очевидно, эта АТО никак не собирается заканчиваться разгромом ВСН, то, хмм, не пора ли подкинуть ВСУ ещё оружия? И это вместо того, чтобы судить преступный режим Украины и заставить его выполнить свои международно-заверенные обязательства принятые им 21 февраля 2014 г о прекращении насилия. Посеешь ветер - пожнёшь бурю.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Да, лучше сберечь бисер. ...

За публичное прозрачное приравнивание модератора к свиньям Crocodile получает предупреждение.

Originally Posted by Lampada

А тебе б только потрепаться.

Za prozrachnoe priravnivanie Crocodile k flagam i parusam moderator poluchaet preduprejdenie.

Ukrainian "freedom of speech". All hail democracy.

Ukraine considers jailing anyone who denies or justifies Russian aggression

https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/02/11...ian-aggression

I really hope that would not be made a law by the Supreme Rada. On the other hand, there was a forum member (profoundly-respected by me), who used to seriously say that a law in Ukraine means nothing unless real people were prosecuted by that law. So, we'll see, I guess ...

Originally Posted by hddscan

Ukrainian "freedom of speech". All hail democracy.


https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/02/11...ian-aggression

You are sure balanced. What about laws in Russia which more or less are anti-freedom? They will jail anyone who advocates splitting up Russia or allowing republics to separate. That's just one example. I didn't read any posts from you about that - criticizing it. That's what we call hypocrisy.

Anyway, does anyone have any direct evidence other than a pro-Kremlin article? I believe it - I just thought there would be something in the Russian or Ukrainian language. Btw, there is also mainstream news about Poroshenko being prepared to declare martial law. I think ordinary Ukrainians are the victim in all this. Both Poroshenko's regime and the Eastern regime (Donetsk and Lugansk republics) only care about fighting and conflict - some 1000s of people can die - it doesn't matter as long as they achieve their ends. Putin doesn't care. Russia is going broke. Ukraine is already broke. I don't see how Russia funds Novorossiya as things get worse. They cannot sustain themselves on their own. Apparently, you cannot criticize the conflict publicly - I was told. But, I think that's another lie. I've complained to Ukrainian nationalists and they disagree with me but there doesn't seem to be a law against it. They just think anyone sympathizing with the rebels or Russian aggression are Putin stooges. But, it is not against the law.

If the Rada want to make the bill a law, it is not surprising. The EU is full of laws against freedom of speech. Ukrainians just don't realize (yet!) that the values and principles are only popular speech. Yet, one cannot forget that you don't have freedom of speech in Russia. It is the same mentality - you have freedom of speech if it is accepted and supported by the Kremlin. These factions might be in conflict with one another but they both have common ideals. They just get there, in different ways.

Итак, зачем же идёт война на Донбассе? Слово Пушилину: ТАСС: Международная панорама - Пушилин: решение конфликта с Украиной возможно только в случае ее внеблокового статуса

Полное и всеобъемлющее урегулирование конфликта с Украиной возможно только в случае ее внеблокового статуса и нейтралитета по отношению к любым военным союзам.

Это то, за что воюет ДНР. Очевидно, Украина не согласна на это и, получается, хочет вступить в некий блок и военный союз, но вот беда - мешает война с ДНР. А теперь, господа, давайте-ка подкинем побольше оружия ВСУ, чтобы Украина додавила ДНР и вступила в блок и военный союз! Нда..

Originally Posted by hddscan

Ukrainian "freedom of speech". All hail democracy.


https://meduza.io/en/news/2015/02/11...ian-aggression

That will be a very effective tool for controlling the media in Ukraine. Since it includes "Russian propaganda" then it's very open-ended too. If nobody in Ukraine can support the Russian narrative then the only interviews reported will be pro-Kiev. It will also give Ukraine the power to arrest journalists working inside their borders.
It totally is an aggression against freedom of the press in Ukraine.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You are sure balanced. What about laws in Russia which more or less are anti-freedom? They will jail anyone who advocates splitting up Russia or allowing republics to separate. That's just one example. I didn't read any posts from you about that - criticizing it. That's what we call hypocrisy.

Calls for splitting up a country is not the same as jailing for having an opinion. If the law passes then anybody who would not agree that Russia is aggressor could get jailed, please not that no proof needed to prove that Russia is aggressor, anybody could get jailed for just disagreeing with it.
If somebody says that those two things are the same, I would call it hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Anyway, does anyone have any direct evidence other than a pro-Kremlin article? I believe it - I just thought there would be something in the Russian or Ukrainian language.

There are Russian and Ukrainian articles, but I was looking for English translation for convenience of members of this forum.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

... But the real question is this - When was the referendum of the Crimean people to join Ukraine? Khrushchev did NOT have the authority to give part of Russia to Ukraine. So how can giving Crimea to Ukraine be legal? It's NOT legal to give part of Russia to another country without even a referendum.
...

i suppose you are saying the sowjet union acted illegally at the time

Originally Posted by eisenherz

i suppose you are saying the sowjet union acted illegally at the time

No. I'm saying that Nikita Khrushchev acted illegally at the time. The hammer and sickle represent the working people and the most important principle of communism was to give the power to the working people. So if Crimea was to leave Russia and become annexed to Ukraine then it should have been the decision of the working people in Crimea.
Giving part of a country to another country with only a decree is something a Tsar would do, NOT a communist leader. The act of one man giving Crimea and Sevastopol to the Ukraine defies the principles of communism. It also defies the principles of self-determination.

Who really annexed Crimea? Кто на самом деле аннексировал Крым? | Красноярское Время

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Who really annexed Crimea? Кто на самом деле аннексировал Крым? | Красноярское Время

Мне это напомнило статью с "Цензора" пятилетней давности:

Греки хотят выращивать мидий и устриц в Крыму | Новости Крыма









Крымчанам предлагают скинуться на строительство Керченского моста | Информационно-новостной портал 'Час Пик'

"Генподрядчиком в строительстве моста через Керченский пролив назначена компания «Стройгазмонтаж», российского бизнесмена Аркадия Ротенберга. Окончание строительства моста определено в срок не позднее декабря 2018 года."

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Who really annexed Crimea? Кто на самом деле аннексировал Крым? | Красноярское Время

Thanks for the link. You are the first person who ever answered my question. And yeah, the "Big Contract" has obviously been violated and it is no longer valid. And now I understand the Russian-Ukrainian relations much more.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Греки хотят выращивать мидий и устриц в Крыму | Новости Крыма


Крымчанам предлагают скинуться на строительство Керченского моста | Информационно-новостной портал 'Час Пик'
Генподрядчиком в строительстве моста через Керченский пролив назначена компания «Стройгазмонтаж», российского бизнесмена Аркадия Ротенберга. Окончание строительства моста определено в срок не позднее декабря 2018 года.

That's all really good news! I know that Turkey was doing business with Crimea but I didn't know about Greece wanting to grow mussels and oysters there. And I definitely can't wait to see the new bridge over the Kerch strait. I read there would also be a railway track on the bridge. Totally cool!

Ok, so the cease-fire was established, but IMHO it's no different from the previous cease-fires. All Ukrainian military wants is to re-group and get prepared for another assault, just like the previous times. Nothing is agreed upon, really, and no warranties has been given. Everywhere it is "possible" and "possibly". No concrete and long-term measures to establish the peace. You wouldn't normally purchase a car or a house on these types of conditions.

Просрали, а потом ещё по пьяне и узаконили это

Тут он прав, увы. Хрущёв мог делать что угодно, но настоящее преступление на совести Ельцина. С такими президентами "волостей не напасёшься".

Думаю, что договорённости при Ельцине были более-менее удовлетворительные. Самое важное - ядерное разоружение Украины было достигнуто. При сохранении автономии Крыма в реальности, а не на бумаге, государственная принадлежность, ИМХО, не так уж и принципиальна для людей (и для военных баз, вспомним хотя бы английскую военную базу на Кипре и американскую военную базу на Кубе). Но, скажем так, "имперские амбиции" Киева привели к постепенному упразднению крымской автономии. Вспомним, что первый крымский президент был уволен Киевом в 1995 году, а затем выгнан из Крыма и из страны (ему запретили въезд). Так, что не нужно всё валить на Ельцина (хоть он и не ангел), тем более, что есть прямые виновные. Вообще, меня удивляет как украинская пропаганда 20 лет кричала, что Россия полнится имперскими амбициями, и упорно не хотела признавать свои имперские амбиции. Соринка - бревно, однако. Курим википедию https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C...B2%D0%B8%D1%87

Вскоре после избрания на пост президента, в интервью газете «Крымский курьер» Мешков заявил:

«Крымчане сделали свой выбор, проголосовав за единение с Россией, за восстановление экономических отношений, за восстановление военно-политического союза с Россией, за всё то, что было провозглашено РДК ещё в августе 1991 года. Это позволит прежде всего спастись всем гражданам Республики Крым от окончательного краха того, что раньше называлось экономикой. Естественно, этого достичь невозможно, если следовать курсу, предложенному киевским руководством на отрыв от России»^[2].