Thread: Latest from Ukraine

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Our troops had to force the deputies into the Oblast Council hall so that these representatives would vote in favor of our initiatives.

Ok, so the deputies were forced to enable a vital question so that the people could vote. Why is the referendum a farce? I'm honestly not getting it.
Here's an example. The province of Newfoundland joined Canada after the WWII as a result of the referendum. The decision was made in a very narrow margin.
The majority of people, as you might know, wanted to join the US, but the Britain-appointed government did not even ask that question.
I honestly think the Newfoundland's referendum was a farce. Do you?

Cargo 200. Part 5

BBC News - Ukraine 'can't stop Russian armour'

Originally Posted by Lampada

BBC News - Ukraine 'can't stop Russian armour'

ну вот и BBC опустилось до фейков
разберем
подпись под фотографией из вышеприведеннной статьи

Reactive armour covers this Russian tank used by the rebels

Вот это танк полностью (кликабельно)
6bd8a89fa2a267537a8632de1e8e80ad6f74f28c794e7180a9418655cacea42b.jpg
Это танк Т-72Б
Здесь можно посмотреть почему
ЛИКБЕЗ: Учимся различать танки Т-64, Т-72 и Т-80! Пособие для чайников.

а вот танки Т-72Б в Украине

С украинской "боевой раскраской"(кликабельно)
t72-dnepr.jpg

На стоянке в Харькове(кликабельно)
t72b.jpg

С какого перепугу это Russian tank я так и не понял, наверное для пущей убедительности статьи

На мой взгляд статья лоббирует интересы некоторых американских деятелей, в частности мистера МакКейна, который давеча заявлял что Украине нужны Джавелины (противотанковые управляемые снаряды 3-го поколения), чтобы воевать с ополченцами.
Т.е. ополченцы могут Т72Б подбивать из РПГ-7, а украинские военные, из тех же РПГ-7, не могут. Ну вобщем дальнейшие комментарии излишни.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

"His latest appearance was on the Neuromir.tv network ‘Political Ring’ talkshow debating another extreme nationalist, Nikolai Starikov, co-chair of the Great Fatherland Party. When Starikov claimed that all the security organs and government in Crimea supported the people there in breaking away from Ukraine and joining Russia, Girkin laughed a bit and said ‘Have you actually been to Crimea during the referendum? Well I have. I have been there since 21 February. What you are describing here is absolute nonsense. There were no policemen who supported our side at that time. The only law enforcement unit that joined our ranks back then was Berkut. The rest of the law enforcement agencies remained under control of Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs, and kept carrying out their orders. Yes, sometimes they were sabotaging these orders, but all in all they were under Ukrainian control. I didn’t see any support from official government representatives in Simferopol. Our troops had to force the deputies into the Oblast Council hall so that these representatives would vote in favor of our initiatives. I know this because I was at the time commanding one such militant teams and I saw it all from the inside. We had absolutely no support from the people, not to mention the army. The Ukrainian army units remained loyal to Kyiv as they were. Furthermore, most of the army remained that way. The only thing that made what we have accomplished in Crimea possible was the presence of Russian army.’

You distort the facts. He conceded they forced opposition to vote for their initiatives. They used guns to get their own way, more or less. They got rid of any pro-Ukrainian media and only had pro-Kremlin media. They had media that fabricated stories and used disinfo. This was not a just and democratic referendum. I'm against the current Kiev government (I hope they vote in someone else and NOT any of the more known names and parties.). But, to be perfectly honest, the 'referendum' in Crimea was a farce and just like Girkin conceded 'he fired the first shot' previously, he's also saying that they forced the referendum to obtain their objective. Whether the previous government didn't want to vote or vote for them or not, the point is that they held people up at gun point to get their desired goal. Yet, they claimed everyone wanted to be part of Russia. Well, we'll see for how long as Russia's running out of funds.

Once again. I insist that this translation is incorrect. You don't know Russian and repeat BS of other liers. This doesn't make a good reputation for you. Anyone who know Russian will say that I am right. And you'd be better start to learn Russian to be able to obtain information from the first hands.

Video made by Ukrainian TV reporters that was removed from the channel site (guess the reasons):

http://rutube.ru/video/870e9f45878ee...d10b9c92daa6a/

Bear in mind that this town is controlled by Ukrainian troops.

Edit: youtube keeps deleting the video so there is another hosting.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Speaking about Crimea, Ukrainian goverment recently hired some German research institute to figure out current public opinion there and here is the result (note that the source is highly biased and anti-Russian):

One year later, most Crimeans prefer Russia - Chicago Tribune

Ho hum.... blah, blah. Would they even take 'poll answers' that would criticize union with Russia? Probably not.

Btw, do any of you get paid by Putin?

The Trolls on Putin's Payroll | TechPresident

Even Crimeans opposed to annexation seem resigned to Russian rule

It's tough to be a Ukrainian patriot in occupied Crimea

This 'support' for Russia will probably change when the money runs out and they are not as well off?

Oh, another question: if you are a Russian citizen or ethnic Russian and you criticize (or even are anti-Putin) Putin/the Government, does that make you 'Anti-Russian?' I know that question is difficult for you so feel free to take your time before answering.

Bloody FSB/KGB, blah, blah... I'm not even going to discuss it. Also I feel sorry for you.

Btw, German intelligence estimates the number of victims in Ukrainian civil war as 50 000. In comparison, the number of Soviet citizens who died in Afganistan war is about 15 000 in 10 years.

Ukraine: Sicherheitskreise: Bis zu 50.000 Tote - Ausland - FAZ

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ok, so the deputies were forced to enable a vital question so that the people could vote. Why is the referendum a farce? I'm honestly not getting it.
Here's an example. The province of Newfoundland joined Canada after the WWII as a result of the referendum. The decision was made in a very narrow margin.
The majority of people, as you might know, wanted to join the US, but the Britain-appointed government did not even ask that question.
I honestly think the Newfoundland's referendum was a farce. Do you?

Perhaps. I'm not an expert on this subject, though. There is controversy about it and people are allowed to freely debate it (unlike some places).

Was the referendum result the truth? - Ed Roberts - The Compass

Imho, it's not comparable to the Crimea situation. They didn't have army pointing guns at people's heads, I suspect.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

The brazen lie #2 is:
"We had absolutely no support from the people, not to mention the army."
He didn't say that. In reality he says that they didn't have any support from the government authorities. Government authorities are not all of the people.
So, I would highly recommend to check the translation in order not to look ridiculous. (Это не переход на личности, а добрый совет.)

I did. I asked some Russian-speaking friends to watch the video and interpret for me. In summary, they concluded Girkin confirmed what Ukrainian authorities were saying. 2) Crimean authorities 'didn't vote' - the results were falsified and there was not a clear majority. They needed the army there and that's what forced local government to vote. So, like I said, (Вытерто. Л.).

So, like I said, you are a liar. No surprise.

И где там наш "непредвзятый ненаезжаемый модератор"? Или это не переход на личности?! Не пора ли призвать к ответственности этого распоясовшегося тролля?

Originally Posted by SergeMak

И где там наш "непредвзятый ненаезжаемый модератор"? Или это не переход на личности?! Не пора ли призвать к ответственности этого распоясовшегося тролля?

LOL.
How am I trolling? I discussed the topic with you. You asked me to get it translated and I did. You claimed the English translation (from the articles) were lies but Russian speakers I talked to say it's accurate. I summarized what they told me.

This is the only part you said that I believe is true: "In reality he says that they didn't have any support from the government authorities." I didn't argue that. I didn't even argue that there was support from the people. But, not a majority. The army had to compel the local government. The pro-Putin army there also used propaganda and shut down the Ukraine media. I asserted Girlkin's confession plus these additional circumstances led to the annexation. All in all, it was done unethically contrary to previous claims. You have nothing to respond with so you make 'troll' accusations.

Ukrainian Nazi battalion "Donbass" uses ambulance vehicles for transporting it's troops and for combat:

1423399076002.jpg1423399076003.jpg1423399076004.jpg

Originally Posted by 14Russian

LOL.
How am I trolling? I discussed the topic with you. You asked me to get it translated and I did. You claimed the English translation (from the articles) were lies but Russian speakers I talked to say it's accurate. I summarized what they told me.

This is the only part you said that I believe is true: "In reality he says that they didn't have any support from the government authorities." I didn't argue that. I didn't even argue that there was support from the people. But, not a majority. The army had to compel the local government. The pro-Putin army there also used propaganda and shut down the Ukraine media. I asserted Girlkin's confession plus these additional circumstances led to the annexation. All in all, it was done unethically contrary to previous claims. You have nothing to respond with so you make 'troll' accusations.

I didn't ask you to translate anything to me. You published some links and I said they are full of lies. I clearly showed why I think so. One article printed a picture impertinent to the content of the article, another has a questionable map, two other links distorted the translation of Strelkov's interview. I didn't even begin to discuss the Strelkov's figure, his "confession" and his role in all what has happened. I didn't call you a lier, I only said that the media you are repeating lies and it's seen. In response you said me rude things. Only trolls act this way.
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

I didn't ask you to translate anything to me. You published some links and I said they are full of lies. I clearly showed why I think so. One article printed a picture impertinent to the content of the article, another has a questionable map, two other links distorted the translation of Strelkov's interview. I didn't even begin to discuss the Strelkov's figure, his "confession" and his role in all what has happened. I didn't call you a lier, I only said that the media you are repeating lies and it's seen. In response you said me rude things. Only trolls act this way.
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No, no.

You explicitly told me to 'check the translation.' This is exactly the phrases you posted:

'So, I would highly recommend to check the translation in order not to look ridiculous.

Anyone who know*s Russian will say that I am right." (* -> edits - by me)

You were saying I look ridiculous or I am but no matter. I let that go. You asked to get the translation and then you implied that anyone who understood Russian would concur with you. And that was incorrect. Maybe, you don't mean to lie. You just believe your interpretations even though I asked people who also understood and speak Russian and they came to different conclusions which mostly match the English-based articles I presented. I explained their summary and it does make sense. That's hardly trolling.

I told you to check the translation so that you could make sure that the translation was incorrect. I didn't ask you to translate to me anything. And I recommend you to do the translation yourself and not to rely on your dubious friends. I will help you. This is the video:



And this is the Russian text of it. I understand that it might be hard for you to get by ear the meaning of what's said, so I've written down the text exceptionally for you. Since this website was primarily mentioned for people who are interested in learning Russian, I highly recommend not to rely on you strange friends, but make the translation yourself. You will find I am telling the truth, and the links you previously provided told lies.
So, here comes the text:

Стариков:
- Почему получилось в Крыму? Потому что в Крыму было 3 составные части того, что получилось. Это: первое, народ Крыма единодушно поддержал воссоединение, вышел на улицы; правоохранительные органы Крыма полностью поддержали и, самое главное - в Крыму была законная легитимная власть, которая встала на сторону народа. Вот только все эти три фактора объединенные смогли привести к тому, что Россия проявила политическую волю со стороны своего руководства и "зеленые человечки" там появились на улицах.
Стрелков:
- Николай, вы в Крыму-то... как бы... когда были?
Стариков:
- Я там был 16-го марта на референдуме.
Стрелков:
- Ага... пожалуйста... А я был в Крыму с 21-го февраля. И, знаете, то что вы мне рассказываете, ну вот просто абсолютная чушь. О каких правоохранительных органах, которые перешли на сторону населения вы вообще говорите? На сторону населения, населения, подчеркиваю, не органов власти, перешел только "Беркут". Остальные органы МВД находились под властью Киева и выполняли приказы Киева - я это видел своими глазами. Да, выполняли неохотно, да, выполняли "спустя рукава", да, где-то там симулировали болезни и просто саботировали выполнение. Но они продолжали подчиняться Киеву и не выполняли указания, которые им давала новая власть. Далее, я не увидел к сожалению никакой поддержки органов государственной власти в Симферополе, где я конкретно находился, не увидел. Не было её. Депутатов собирали ополченцы, чтобы загнать их в зал, чтобы они приняли... чего уж там говорить-то. Да, я был одним из командиров этих ополченцев. Я это всё видел изнутри - собственными глазами. То есть две ваших "составляющих" - они просто уже не работают, я уж про э... госу... про армию вообще не говорю, про украинскую. Силовики основные кто? Армия? Армия как подчинялась Киеву, так и продолжала подчиняться. Тоже очень неохотно, тоже саботировала, тоже были в ней разные волнения, я там вел переговоры лично со штабом флота... Черноморского... я их начинал... но подчинялась. И более того, большая часть подразделений в итоге осталась верна Киеву и вышла с территории Крыма.
Стариков:
- Парламент Крыма, тем не менее, собрался, принял решение и Аксенов стал руководителем, точно такое же решение было принято в Севастополе. Вопрос: если вы посодействовали принятию этих решений и в Крыму и в Севастополе, почему вы не сделали то же самое на Донбасе. Почему совет Донецкой или Луганской области не собрался и не выбрал своего руководителя? Легитимный совет, полностью все депутаты, почему этого не получилось?
Стрелков:
- Потому что на окраине Симферополя и непосредственно в самом Севастополе не было... вернее были российские военные, и была надежда, что они поддержат, и они поддержали. В Донецке и Луганске если бы стояли БТРы морской пехоты - российской, поверьте, было бы всё то же самое. Всё то же самое, более того, я подчеркну еще, что и в Харькове было бы то же самое, и в Николаеве, и в Одессе, и везде. Единственный фактор, который отсутствовал, из того, что вы назвали, и присутствовал в Крыму - это наличие российских войск однозначно занявших позицию поддержки народной власти. Была бы эта поддержка в других регионах, была бы точно такая же бескровная, оглушительная победа, как в Крыму.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

И где там наш "непредвзятый ненаезжаемый модератор"? Или это не переход на личности?! Не пора ли призвать к ответственности этого распоясовшегося тролля?

Не было меня у компьютера, вот только из тюрьмы пришла, племянника навещала.
По правде говоря, неохота эту тему читать: она, как я и боялась, превратилась в борьбу пропаганд. Никто ни в чём никого не переубедит. Но да, все переходы на личности будут вытираться.
"Лжеца" сейчас найду.
Интересно, кто здесь в Политике непредвзятый?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Imho, it's not comparable to the Crimea situation. They didn't have army pointing guns at people's heads, I suspect.

I think you still refuse to make a distinction and confuse between the people and the government. Won't you agree? Crimean the Newfoundland
situations were two examples of the government forced to ask or not ask a specific question. The government was either Britain-controlled or
Strelkov & Co. controlled. The control in both cases meant a potential violence for non-compliance.
The second example, when you could allegdely say the people voted with the gun pointed to their head were the elections in Afghanistan
and Iraq in which the army and the armed police were present in the poll stations. That did not happen in Crimea.

CNN уже особо не стесняется называть вещи своими именами:

Originally Posted by Basil77

CNN уже особо не стесняется называть вещи своими именами:

Ой, умора, точно про нас здесь: смотришь в книгу - видишь фигу. Или везде мерещится Госдеп?
С какого перепуга это вооружение относится к кризису в Украине?
В программе обсуждается несколько тем. Кризис в Украине - первый сегмент передачи.
Следующий сюжет - вооружение сирийских борцов с Ассадом. (Американцы до сих пор не могут найти там, кому помогать).

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ой, умора, точно про нас здесь: смотришь в книгу - видишь фигу.
С какого перепуга это вооружение относится к кризису в Украине?
В программе обсуждается несколько тем. Кризис в Украине - первый сегмент передачи.
Следующий сюжет - вооружение сирийских борцов с Ассадом. (Американцы до сих пор не могут найти там, кому помогать).

Я обещал Кроку не реагировать на твои реплики, так что промолчу.