Thread: G8 Summit and Russia's Prez

Originally Posted by TATY

The fact is RussiSlav, Americans think Communism is evil? Why?.... it just is. The reason why they think so is because America was basically a major capitalist country from the start, so communism therefore goes against everything it stands for (on paper).

And Soviets think captialism is evil? Why? ...it just is. If we're a capitalist country, no duh we're gonna dislike communism. The Soviets were the same way with us---they thought capitalism was evil because it went against everything communism stands for, so why don't you complain about that? And maybe if YOU had missiles pointed at your coast, just maybe you'd think the Soviet government was evil too....

So what about freedom of speech and personal freedom? If your own and your family's life was good and safe would you really be too bothered if the newspaper was actually telling you the truth or some propoganda to keep you happy?

Well, in the USSR you had no freedom of speech and you weren't really good and safe with your family. If the KGB found out you opposed the government, you're in the gulag...if you were lucky. They might've just shot you. Or perhaps the people thought they were safe and happy because "Pravda" (inappropriately called "Truth") told them they were, and the citizens didn't know any better than to believe it...

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

If the KGB found out you opposed the government, you're in the gulag...if you were lucky. They might've just shot you. Or perhaps the people

You're sooo exaggerating. Or probably you read too much Orwell.
Again don't mix Stalin's era and post-Stalin times. It's the same as to claim Bush is evil because USA tried to wipe out native-Americans population (though Bush IS evil, no doubt ).

Well I do read a lot of Orwell. I know the times after Stalin weren't nearly as brutal as the time of Stalin, but I was only talking about the Stalinist era. And Bush wasn't the one who wiped out the Native Americans, as you know. And today's 9/11---please show some respect and don't make fun of our president or our nation. Спасибо.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

And Bush wasn't the one who wiped out the Native Americans, as you know. And today's 9/11---please show some respect and don't make fun of our president or our nation. Спасибо.

Well, Putin communist or not didn't send people to Gulag either.
But you're right. That's not time for such a discussion. Sorry.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

And today's 9/11---please show some respect and don't make fun of our president or our nation. Спасибо.

The fact that today is 9/11 didn't stop you from making FIVE posts on this subject, attacking Putin, who by the way, was one of the first leaders to express solidarity with us and who didn't biatch and moan about letting us set up bases in Kyrgystan and Uzbekistan so we could deal with the Taliban (which is what basically every single Russian political figure said he SHOULD do). Just saying...

Does Putin = the greatest thing since sliced-bread? No, of course not. But is he the communist satan incarnate? Not even close. By Russian historical standards he's one of the most mellow guys. Boris and Gleb were two of the traditional Russian heroes of old, and they ended up getting whacked by their own brother. Carry that on through the days of the Tatar occupation and their vassal kings, the Romanov dynasty, and the ACTUAL communist leaders and he comes out smelling like a peach.

Originally Posted by Бармалей

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

And today's 9/11---please show some respect and don't make fun of our president or our nation. Спасибо.

The fact that today is 9/11 didn't stop you from making FIVE posts on this subject, attacking Putin, who by the way, was one of the first leaders to express solidarity with us and who didn't biatch and moan about letting us set up bases in Kyrgystan and Uzbekistan so we could deal with the Taliban (which is what basically every single Russian political figure said he SHOULD do). Just saying...

I meant for others not to bash the US, since this attack happened to us, not Russia...And I wasn't attacking Putin in ALL of them, mostly attacking the Soviet government. And no, Putin is not as evil as Stalin or other communists leaders, but that wasn't my point. My point was that he was still a communist, whether he'll admit it or not, but I never said he was an evil mass murderer who sent people to the gulag.

Вы спорите ни о чём. В ГУЛАГ попадали кто угодно - вот в чем фишка! Туда попадали не только так называемые "враги народа", а вообще кто угодно, в т.ч. те же следователи которые отправляли других в лагерь, а потом следователи, отправившие тех следователей и т.д. В квартирах люди сидели и ждали чья же будет очередь. Моя бабушка, увидев милиционера, переходила на другую строну улицы, на всякий случай.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Вы спорите ни о чём. В ГУЛАГ попадали кто угодно - вот в чем фишка! Туда попадали не только так называемые "враги народа", а вообще кто угодно, в т.ч. те же следователи которые отправляли других в лагерь, а потом следователи, отправившие тех следователей и т.д. В квартирах люди сидели и ждали чья же будет очередь. Моя бабушка, увидев милиционера, переходила на другую строну улицы, на всякий случай.

Как раз о Гулаге мы и не спорим. Мы спорим, можно ли считать человека (в данном случае Путина) плохим, только потому, что он коммунист (или был им).

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by mishau_

Вы спорите ни о чём. В ГУЛАГ попадали кто угодно - вот в чем фишка! Туда попадали не только так называемые "враги народа", а вообще кто угодно, в т.ч. те же следователи которые отправляли других в лагерь, а потом следователи, отправившие тех следователей и т.д. В квартирах люди сидели и ждали чья же будет очередь. Моя бабушка, увидев милиционера, переходила на другую строну улицы, на всякий случай.

Как раз о Гулаге мы и не спорим. Мы спорим, можно ли считать человека (в данном случае Путина) плохим, только потому, что он коммунист (или был им).

Нет, нужно судить по делам. А дела, можно сказать, неважные. Взять хотя бы процесс по делу Ходоровского.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Yes..look what communism did to Russia. Was killing millions of innocent people a crime? Was creating food shortages a crime? Was taking people to the gulag at midnight to have them work there for years a crime? Yes.

I was not communism itself but some rampant communists.
I don't know what flag is it but hammer and sickle are not being used by communists alone. In fact, neo-nazi's adopted that symbolic as well.
Check this flag, for example:

Here's the leader of National-Bolsheviks Limonov. I woudn't call his views communistic.

Moreover some military units retain their flags from USSR times. But this relates more to stars than hammer and sickle.

Communism did nothing to Russia just because it had never existed there.

USSR was 'building' communism but had it never actually built.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Yes, most Soviet citizens were just average people with nothing to do with gulags. My point was that the government, which was run by communists, was the one that did have somethin to do with gulags...

And yes, I know you had to join the Party just to get a job.

Bullsh|t.
There were people running the major industrial plants and they were беспартийные (беспартийный - a man who doesn't belong to party).
My father worked at Ministry and he wasn't a party member.
You had to be a party member in order to occupy some position in government. It was a plus for your career but it wasn't mandatory.
There were some positions (usually of a high rank) that required a party members only but there weren't that many of them.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by mishau_

Вы спорите ни о чём. В ГУЛАГ попадали кто угодно - вот в чем фишка! Туда попадали не только так называемые "враги народа", а вообще кто угодно, в т.ч. те же следователи которые отправляли других в лагерь, а потом следователи, отправившие тех следователей и т.д. В квартирах люди сидели и ждали чья же будет очередь. Моя бабушка, увидев милиционера, переходила на другую строну улицы, на всякий случай.

Как раз о Гулаге мы и не спорим. Мы спорим, можно ли считать человека (в данном случае Путина) плохим, только потому, что он коммунист (или был им).

My mother is a communist. She was a communist back in USSR and she is a communist now (a member of CPRF - the successor of CPSU). Well, having read this discussion should I consider my mother evil as well?

It's an idiocy to say people are evil just because they are communists. In fact - there were quite more 'good' members of CPSU than 'evil' ones. I'm speaking of ordinary people who were sincere in their views and notions.

Originally Posted by Ramil

It's an idiocy to say people are evil just because they are communists. In fact - there were quite more 'good' members of CPSU than 'evil' ones. I'm speaking of ordinary people who were sincere in their views and notions.

I hope you're not arguing to ME, because that's exactly what I'm trying to tell.

Bullsh|t.
There were people running the major industrial plants and they were беспартийные (беспартийный - a man who doesn't belong to party).

You're not quite right. To be a communist wasn't mandatory but made it easier to get better job.
Well, my aunt was a communist. She Joined the Party because it gave her better chances to get a job in a very prestige military health centre (she is a nurse). Now she isn't a member of any party and not interested in politics.

My mom was offered by her boss to join the party because he thought it was an hounor and wanted to give an incentive to her (she was a constructor, they built air-cushion ships, hydrofoil boats and other advanced technology stuff).

She said to him that she believes the party meetings unbelievably boring and refused. And know what (RusskiSlav, are you reading? ) nobody called to KGB and nobody tried to send her to Gulag. She worked in that design office happily until the collapse of the USSR.

It's an idiocy to say people are evil just because they are communists. In fact - there were quite more 'good' members of CPSU than 'evil' ones. I'm speaking of ordinary people who were sincere in their views and notions.

Честно говоря, некоторые западные недоброжелатели меня тоже называют коммунистом. А люди из Балтийких республик делают так непременно. Из чего я могу заключить вывод, что им вообще не важно коммунист человек по своим убеждением или нет. НА ЗАПАДЕ НЕНАВИДЯТ РУССКИХ! Даже чеченские террористы не являются злодеями. Почему? Потому что они ПРОТИВ РУССКИХ!

Почему-то Китай никто не критикует, хотя они самые что ни на есть краснофлажистые. И формально-преформально поддерживают все эти идеи.

Я не приемлю коммунистические идеи, однако меня называют коммунистом, следовательно меня считают осью зла и готовы уничтожить. Таких как я их миллионы, ну и что, спрашивается, делать? На самом деле хотят уничтожить русских, уничтожить Россию.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

She said to him that she believes the party meetings unbelievably boring and refused. And know what (RusskiSlav, are you reading? ) nobody called to KGB and nobody tried to send her to Gulag. She worked in that design office happily until the collapse of the USSR.

Yeah, but that was AFTER Stalin died. I only meant all this stuff about the gulag and KGB sending people there to appy to Stalinist times, not after. And I didn't say all communists were "evil", but they aren't exactly the type of people who I'd want running my nation. However, Stalinist communism and gulags were evil, you can't deny that....

Sigh...I haven't met a single person on this board who isn't a communist, or who doesn't disagree with communism. If I had known that practically everyone here is like that I wouldn't have joined.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Sigh...I haven't met a single person on this board who isn't a communist, or who doesn't disagree with communism. If I had known that practically everyone here is like that I wouldn't have joined.

Yes, oh sage one, you have uncovered this super-secret evil plot! MasterRussian is actually <drum roll, please> funded by all that Communist Party money that dissappeared after the USSR collapsed. You see, MasterAdmin, was actually head of KGB Secret Section MARGARITA, which sought to spend huge amounts of hard currency on "language learning websites" (which they found out about through their psychic time machine, since there wasn't really much internet back then). These "language learning websites" are of course, just a mechanism for KGB sleeper cells! GO GO COMMUNIST SHARKS WITH THE LASER BEAMS MOUNTED TO YOUR HEADS! TAKE OVER THE CAPITALIST WORLD! SWIM MY PRETTIES, SWIM! MWHAHAHA.

Seriously, you need to grow up and/or quit smoking the reefer. Please, if you think we're all "communists", then by all means leave. After all, you're obviously incredibly ignorant, since if you'd read much of anything here you'd realize that there are MANY different view points on ANYTHING.

That's all I've got time to say right now. I'm on my way to the plenum to see if I can figure out a way to whack some of my commie buddies.

Geez I didn't say you were ALL communists, I just said the only people I've met seem to support that point of view. I know there are surely other people here who don't, but I was only saying that OF THE ONES I'VE SPOKEN WITH, that's not the case. I made no mention of other people here whom I haven't spoken with liking communism. Before you go calling people ignorant perhaps you should actually READ their posts carefully and figure out that they're not generalizing and saying EVERYONE is a commie.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Sigh...I haven't met a single person on this board who isn't a communist, or who doesn't disagree with communism. If I had known that practically everyone here is like that I wouldn't have joined.

Don't give up your hopes, may be you'll find some ferocious anticommunist here.
But I think it's more intersting to have a discussion with those who have different points of view, than to be a member of forum where everybody moans: "Oh, these communists are evil! Oh, Putin is dangerous! I hate Stalin! He sent people to Gulag!"

But first, it's not a poltical forum where people gather up to discuss their political ideas.
Second, communism hardly has anything to do with Stalin (and with Soviet Union as well). Communism is utopia which had in mind social justice, equality, satisfaction of all your needs and so on, and so on. Blah-blah-blah. In short communism is universal and total hapiness (in theory). So tell me what's wrong with happiness (exept the fact it's unachievable ). In the end all people want the same: happy life and more opportunities for their children.

What I was talking about? *cough* Ah! So your hate for communism has no sense. it's just an echo of old "anticommunism" propaganda. Well, we were taught to hate capitalism, and you were taught to hate (and to fear?)communism.
For all the terrible crimes commited against russian (and other) people we should blame not the idea but the political regimes, IMHO. Because building an utopia always ends up in blood even if you try to bring Kingdom of God on Earth. So should idea/God be blamed for people's crimes? Don't think so...

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Second, communism hardly has anything to do with Stalin (and with Soviet Union as well). Communism is utopia which had in mind social justice, equality, satisfaction of all your needs and so on, and so on. Blah-blah-blah. In short communism is universal and total hapiness (in theory). So tell me what's wrong with happiness (exept the fact it's unachievable ). In the end all people want the same: happy life and more opportunities for their children.

What I was talking about? *cough* Ah! So your hate for communism has no sense. it's just an echo of old "anticommunism" propaganda. Well, we were taught to hate capitalism, and you were taught to hate (and to fear?)communism.
For all the terrible crimes commited against russian (and other) people we should blame not the idea but the political regimes

That's the problem--since the theory of communism is unachievable it shouldn't even be attempted. Yet the Bolsheviks did attempt it and disaster ensued...at least while Stalin was alive. In theory communism denounced war, but the Soviets were involved with Vietnam and Korea (yes, we were too, but our government isn't run by some theory that says "no war ever"), not to mention they invaded Finland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Afghanistan, and pointed missiles at us.

And perhaps your hate of capitalism is an echo of old "anticapitalism" propaganda...?

And I was blaming political regimes. And the theory of communism is more than just "happiness", it involves everyone being equal in every way, i.e. no one has more money than anyone else. That is not the way people naturally are--we can never all be equal in that sense. Some of us work harder than others so we're rewarded with better pay..we're not all equal.

Pure utopia is, as you said, unachievable. In fact, utopia means "no place" in Greek.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

In theory communism denounced war, but the Soviets were involved with Vietnam and Korea, not to mention they invaded Finland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Afghanistan, and pointed missiles at us.

Should I mention they invaded most of that countries to oppose to USA, who invaded these countries as well? Do you mean, that's ok for USA to keep acting that way nowadays just because it's not a communist country? Well, I see double standart here.

And perhaps your hate of capitalism is an echo of old "anticapitalism" propaganda...?

Nope. Actually, I don't hate it. There is not too much difference between the two (cap. and com.). Just different sides of the same coin.
Living in USSR gives you a good antidote for mind games, you know. So don't believe so devoutly to everything your government (or Oprah) says.

And the theory of communism is more than just "happiness", it involves everyone being equal in every way, i.e. no one has more money than anyone else.

Oh, that's a big problem, isn't it? You, wannabe rich.

That is not the way people naturally are--we can never all be equal in that sense.

Agree. That's why I called it utopia.