Thread: G8 Summit and Russia's Prez

Originally Posted by mishau_

Messages like these always make me wonder: why there's no remedy from *verbal* diarrhea in drug stores?

Listen, if you don't know what to say on the subject, shut please your mouth up and remain quiet. Comment on the subject, not on messages that are not to you, ok? If you want to comment on someone's messages, start your own thread and post your unsubstantiated comments about everythinhg you want, ok?

OK, very well. If you want serious comment on your (as usual, more than predictable) remarks -- you'll get it. This thread is going to be boring and full of flames, but if you insist…

Originally Posted by mishau_

That's pretty stupid to compare what's going on now with the Soviet times. In both cases we live much worse than people in the West. While the West went ahead in profress, with our free good for nothing education we learnt how to take out tonsils by gas-cutting through the anus.

I'm quite sure, the anal tonsil surgery was unique invention of yours -- the rests of Soviet scientists were busy with different matters.
For example, due to their efforts USSR became the first country in space. USSR was one of the first in nuclear research, and first discovered lots of trans-uranium elements. Until the 1970’s, USSR was one of the world leading countries in computer industry (BESM-6 was first computer, which achieved millions register ops per second). USSR constructed arctic and antarctic research stations, conducted deep ocean researches, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by mishau_

What's the use in getting educated for free if you could not apply your knowledge. We heard of plenty of good engineers who never saw their inventions introduced.

So, come on and give me a list of engineers, who “never saw their inventions introduced”, with the list of inventions and reasons, why they did not.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Now medicine, all I remember for the retired there was only baralgin in cemists's, not like it is now. That's what free medicine could suggest. And nothing from diareha, except manganese crystals. All good farmaceuticals were in deficit. All good things were in deficit.

This statement surely counts as direct and obvious lying.
USSR had a powerful pharmaceutical industry, and all medicaments actually needed for health care were available without problems and by very low price. For example, antibiotics, vitamins, analgetics, sedatives — most of these were domestically produced. There were lots of medicines imported from Poland, Hungary, India and other countries.

(BTW, if I right, manganesia can’t help much from diarrhea — actually, it have exactly opposite effect ).

Originally Posted by mishau_

But the worst thing about the Soviet styile was that a bunch of gray and stupid people directed you how you must live.

Some of these “gray and stupid” leaders look for me like the geniuses, compared with some modern ones…

Originally Posted by mishau_

Especially when you know that those people think more about their own prosperity than the prosperity of the state.

And how you can so surely know, what these people are thinking “more about their own prosperity”? Have a working telepathy skills?

Originally Posted by mishau_

So, all that you see now did not appear yesterday, but was fostered by the Soviet regime.

Typical excuse of any lousy politician — blame his predecessors for all his own stupid mistakes.

Originally Posted by mishau_

People who never had anything can only bow at the foot of authorites to ask for some food and drink a lot and call it freedom.

Pure and demagogic BS, which don’t worth much commenting.

Originally Posted by mishau_

The moral degradation of the Homo Sovetucus was growing so rapidly that eventually it was about to take over the Soviet power and burst out (for example to occupy some new European or Asian countries).

Not understood.

[quote=kalinka_vinnie]

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":1x8ikeon

Well, that is quite an oversimplifaction, young Jedi. He vetoed the bill that would allow stem cell research using live cells from embryos. The veto doesn't put any limitation on stem cell research using adult cells. The difference is that to get the stem cells from embyros you have to kill the embyro, being a potential human being, while adult cells you can just scrape off your skin to grow more skin. So your statement: "if I could be saved by growing cells from my own body" isn't against the law, unless you are an embyro. But if you were an embyro, you wouldn't need a lung in the first place. So that's that.

That in itself is a bit of a simplification. He didn't veto a bill allowing the research, he vetoed a bill allowing federal funding for that research.

True you are. The state of California has allowed such research through a proposition not long aho, but I think the Senate is challenging it...[/quote:1x8ikeon]
Er? I am confused, does the state of California have any authority over the federal funds? And if this is about state funds, what does the Senate have to do with it?

Probably you or your parents used to work in the GosPlan or something. Thusyou do not know at all how people lived during the Soviet time.

>>So, come on and give me a list of engineers, who “never saw their inventions introduced”, with the list of inventions and reasons, why they did not.

Read "Дело Хинта", it's just a drop in the see, but so significant.

>>This statement surely counts as direct and obvious lying.
USSR had a powerful pharmaceutical industry, and all medicaments actually needed for health care were available without problems and by very low price.

You defeintely was a major.


>>For example, antibiotics, vitamins, analgetics, sedatives — most of these were domestically produced.

However, people perefered American aspirin when they got a chance to catch it. But you can't know, you lived under communism.

>>Some of these “gray and stupid” leaders look for me like the geniuses, compared with some modern ones…

The modern ones formerly are the same CPSU members, that you know. I see them every day.

>>And how you can so surely know, what these people are thinking “more about their own prosperity”? Have a working telepathy skills?

No, I just work with them side by side. Affiliated compamies, relationship of godparents, sabotage, and so on. Very predicalbe.
I wish you were a victim of their numerous plots; it'd be a good lesson for you.

>>So, all that you see now did not appear yesterday, but was fostered by the Soviet regime.

The school is the same, obvuously. They are the same.

>>Pure and demagogic BS, which don’t worth much commenting.

the Radio Svobody today at around 12:50 was translating pager messages. They were all similar to my idia. Too many demagogs, don't you know, and all of them are only on the Bristish radio station. Too strange, isn't it? The western propaganda.


>>For example, due to their efforts USSR became the first country in space

Yes, and the people who contgributed a lot, lived and still live much worse than the party functioners. The state has forgotten them as those once who worked at the Chernobyl.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Probably you or your parents used to work in the GosPlan or something. Thusyou do not know at all how people lived during the Soviet time.

Nope, you missed completely.
My father worked (and works) as translator from German and English. In these times, he worked in ЦБНТИ (Central Bureau of Scientific and Technical Information) and translated technical articles in various magazines.
My mother worked in one of the GLAVK's of Minmedprom, on some insignificant post.
Neighter of my parent was even a Party member.

Originally Posted by mishau_

>>So, come on and give me a list of engineers, who “never saw their inventions introduced”, with the list of inventions and reasons, why they did not.

Read "Дело Хинта", it's just a drop in the see, but so significant.

Do you want to say, what I.A. Hint is an engineer, who actually invented something? He was director and administrator of constructor bureau, and was sentenced to prison for purely economic affairs.

BTW, do you know, who was one of the main inspirators of this doubtful criminal case? It was Telman Gdlyan, the future hero of Perestroyka and fighter with the totalitarian system.

Originally Posted by mishau_

>>This statement surely counts as direct and obvious lying.
USSR had a powerful pharmaceutical industry, and all medicaments actually needed for health care were available without problems and by very low price.

You defeintely was a major.

Who-who?

Originally Posted by mishau_

>>For example, antibiotics, vitamins, analgetics, sedatives — most of these were domestically produced.

However, people perefered American aspirin when they got a chance to catch it. But you can't know, you lived under communism.

Yes, it was a serious social stratum -- a clinical idiots, considering everything western-produced to be better. Even Edichka Limonov ironised in some of this novel about some soviet-breed idiots, who detested Soviet-made 100% cotton shirts and preferred western-msde synthetic ones. (And when he emigrated to USA, he discovered, what values are slighttly different there -- pure cotton shirts are worn by millionaires, and synthetic -- by young bandits in negro ghettos. )
The same is true for aspirin, which is just an acetil-salicilic acid and is absolutely identical, regardless of where it is produced.
And idiots, even if they are numerous, remain an idiots.

Originally Posted by mishau_

>>Some of these “gray and stupid” leaders look for me like the geniuses, compared with some modern ones…

The modern ones formerly are the same CPSU members, that you know. I see them every day.

You did not understand me -- I'm talking about most of the modern political leaders, including ones from the West. (I guess, the later ones never were members of CPSU ).

Originally Posted by mishau_

>>And how you can so surely know, what these people are thinking “more about their own prosperity”? Have a working telepathy skills?

No, I just work with them side by side. Affiliated compamies, relationship of godparents, sabotage, and so on. Very predicalbe.
I wish you were a victim of their numerous plots; it'd be a good lesson for you.

So, you are working now, or *was* working? I have absolutely no illusions about the modern politicians -- but I guess we were discussing the situation of the past, not the present times.
[/quote]

Originally Posted by mishau_

>>Pure and demagogic BS, which don’t worth much commenting.

the Radio Svobody today at around 12:50 was translating pager messages. They were all similar to my idia. Too many demagogs, don't you know, and all of them are only on the Bristish radio station. Too strange, isn't it? The western propaganda.

I'm astonished. Didn't you really know, what RL ("Radio Liberty") is 100% controlled by USA state dept.? Of course, it is an instrument of propaganda (and not vaguely "western" -- but, specifically, US officious). Denying this is kinda like deny the "Pravda" was an official paper of CPSU.

(And, personally, I'm not surprised, what "Radio Liberty" shares lots of your views. I expected something like this. )

>>For example, due to their efforts USSR became the first country in space

Originally Posted by mishau_

Yes, and the people who contgributed a lot, lived and still live much worse than the party functioners.

The leading scientists and engineers (like Korolev) had exactly everything, what the higher Party functioners had. BTW, this was quite a modest life level by modern standarts.

Originally Posted by mishau_

The state has forgotten them as those once who worked at the Chernobyl.

*Which* "state" you're talking about? Soviet Union ceased to exist 5 years after Chernobyl disaster. In Russia Chernobyl "liquidators" have some social priveleges. I have no idea about situation in modern Ukraine and Belorussia (for which the leaders of these countries are responsible).

BTW, do you know, who was one of the main inspirators of this doubtful criminal case? It was Telman Gdlyan, the future hero of Perestroyka and fighter with the totalitarian system. Smile

I've read all the materials including Gdlyan's interrogationprotocols written and signatured by his own hand. It was nonsence. Gdlayn was a cop, so he was totally a Sobiet man, like now Gryslov (who used to be a cop) and Putin how was (and I think is) a KGB'ist. So cops are governing the country now and people are so glad. But it seems you didn't read the book.

Now his invention is in practice in Europe, but not in Russia. Besides TV Set was invented in the USSR first and introduced in Britain later. And all soviet engeneers were aimed to work for the affairs of defence. So, try to read Zadornov to recall what was going on in Soviet Cunstruction Buerous. But if you still don't remember anything about the quality of goods in the USSR, just look at Russian cars now or elevators that always break down.

Yes, it was a serious social stratum -- a clinical idiots, considering everything western-produced to be better. Even Edichka Limonov ironised in some of this novel about some soviet-breed idiots, who detested Soviet-made 100% cotton shirts and preferred western-msde synthetic ones. (And when he emigrated to USA, he discovered, what values are slighttly different there -- pure cotton shirts are worn by millionaires, and synthetic -- by young bandits in negro ghettos. Smile )
The same is true for aspirin, which is just an acetil-salicilic acid and is absolutely identical, regardless of where it is produced.
And idiots, even if they are numerous, remain an idiots.

May be you mean only vodka. Edichka Limonov is a greatist idiot himself. How can you write "even"? Don't forget, most of rather good products came from Hungary, GDR, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Tobacco was too bad, just incomparable with the import (Java by Java was was the best sort of cigarets, but the Camel and Marllboro were out of competition).

French wines and cognac were in favour, Czechic beer (did you forget long queues?) was in deficit. Jeans from the USA and snickers from the Adidas or Botas were the best.

Musical intruments from Germany, Bulgaria and the CSSR, remember Leningradskaya guitars? They were total rubbish comprated to those from abroad.

Finnish smoked sausages were at the top as I remember.

Tape-recordes and Video- recorders, you know, were no match at all for the import ones.

I'll laugh at you if you tell me that Russian cassetes like (МК-60-1) were better than Agfa, Sanio or Maxell.

And finally computers, especially Russian and Bulgarian disckettes (Izot) that were banned to use in all labs I knew (people were idiots like you say). And we couldn't compare Russian Iskra's and Poland Masovia's, not to say about American ibm's.

I can keep you telling all this for half a year or more, but what was crusual in all those things that there was a very big shortage of all of them.

Originally Posted by mishau_

BTW, do you know, who was one of the main inspirators of this doubtful criminal case? It was Telman Gdlyan, the future hero of Perestroyka and fighter with the totalitarian system. Smile

I've read all the materials including Gdlyan's interrogationprotocols written and signatured by his own hand. It was nonsence. Gdlayn was a cop, so he was totally a Sobiet man, like now Gryslov (who used to be a cop) and Putin how was (and I think is) a KGB'ist. So cops are governing the country now and people are so glad. But it seems you didn't read the book.

Missed you point. If you want to say, what Gdlyan is mostly responsible for this case, I agree. I guess, Putin and Gryzlov have nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Now his invention is in practice in Europe, but not in Russia.

So, Johannes Hint did invent something? And what? And which was his contribution?

Originally Posted by mishau_

Besides TV Set was invented in the USSR first and introduced in Britain later.

TV set was invented in USSR? Never heard of this! More facts, please.

Originally Posted by mishau_

So, try to read Zadornov to recall what was going on in Soviet Cunstruction Buerous.

Which Zadornov do you mean, the humorist?

Originally Posted by mishau_

But if you still don't remember anything about the quality of goods in the USSR, just look at Russian cars now or elevators that always break down.

First, I thought we were discussing the goods made in USSR, not Russia? But, anyway:

I'm looking at Russian cars every day. I'm living in Moscow, remember? Even here in Moscow (with relatively high life level) 30-35% of personal cars are LADA's of various modifications. Some of them are (judging by their looks) in use from middle of 70's -- and still not broken. LADA's and NIVA's were exported to the rest of the world, and were quite popular.

And I'm also using the Russian elevator every day! Yes it's working perfectly -- from my memory, it was broken one or two times for last 4 years. (And this was mostly due to vandalism of some cretins, I think.)

Yes, it was a serious social stratum -- a clinical idiots, considering everything western-produced to be better. Even Edichka Limonov ironised in some of this novel about some soviet-breed idiots, who detested Soviet-made 100% cotton shirts and preferred western-msde synthetic ones. (And when he emigrated to USA, he discovered, what values are slighttly different there -- pure cotton shirts are worn by millionaires, and synthetic -- by young bandits in negro ghettos. Smile )
The same is true for aspirin, which is just an acetil-salicilic acid and is absolutely identical, regardless of where it is produced.
And idiots, even if they are numerous, remain an idiots.

May be you mean only vodka. Edichka Limonov is a greatist idiot himself. [/quote]

I'm agree he's quite an idiot -- but it's no reason to think, what people he is writing about are smarter than him.

Don't forget, most of rather good products came from Hungary, GDR, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia and Poland.

Another over-general stetement -- *which* products?
And in which aspect they were so good -- prettyly looking packing case?

Tobacco was too bad, just incomparable with the import (Java by Java was was the best sort of cigarets, but the Camel and Marllboro were out of competition).

Can't even comment cigars quality -- I'm not a smoker, and wish you too...

French wines and cognac were in favour, Czechic beer (did you forget long queues?) was in deficit.

Neither I'm expert in alcohol. But you must remember, what things like "French wines and cognac" are world-known brands, and were popular not only in USSR.

Jeans from the USA and snickers from the Adidas or Botas were the best.

Ha ha. Do you know, what *lots* of these "best" jeans were actually made in Poland or southern respublics of USSR? They just had stickers like "Levy's" or "Wrangler" on them.
So theyr popularity were due to widespread idioticy, and have nothing to do with their objective quality.

Musical intruments from Germany, Bulgaria and the CSSR, remember Leningradskaya guitars? They were total rubbish comprated to those from abroad.

Not expert in musical instruments.

Finnish smoked sausages were at the top as I remember.

Good sausages. As wines, they were popular in the other countries of the world.

Tape-recordes and Video-recorders, you know, were no match at all for the import ones.

First, this depends from how you match them.

Do you know, what audio reproducing equipment depends from its class?
Classes are from highest (0) to lowest (4). As far as I know, this is european standart, and Soviet-made audio equipment conformed to this standarts precisely.
For example, "Elektronika-302" tape recorder sounded exactly like class 3 tape recorder must sound -- neither better, nor worse.
As far as I know, some Soviet-made audio equipment (especially, lamp-based) is quite popular among modern audiophiles. I hope, this is telling something to you.

I'll laugh at you if you tell me that Russian cassetes like (МК-60-1) were better than Agfa, Sanio or Maxell.

Before starting to laugh, remember, what only idiots compare consumer goods by they quality alone. They are *always* compared by quality/price ratio.

Yes, audiocassetes like MK-60 and MK-90 were a bit worse -- but they also were at least 2 times cheaper! As far as I remember, MK-60 costed 4 R, and most cassetes from abroad -- 9-10 R (with normal ferrite tape, and something like 15R with chromdioxide tape).

And finally computers, especially Russian and Bulgarian disckettes (Izot) that were banned to use in all labs I knew (people were idiots like you say).

Yes, this sounds quite idiotic. Why did they ban quite a normal floppy disks? As I remember, "Izot" produced both 8" and 5.25" floppy diskettes (which were not much worse, the the other ones I encountered )

And we couldn't compare Russian Iskra's and Poland Masovia's, not to say about American ibm's.

Well, let's be a bit more specific. There was no computer caleed "Iskra", for example.
If we are talking about IBM-PC compatibles made in USSR, I know two of them "ES-1840/41" and "Iskra-1030". (I'm sure you aren't talking about "Iskra-226", which was weird and *not* PC compatible).

In the good old times I worked both on ES-type and Iskra-1030 PCs. IMHO, by their functional parameters they were not worse, than normal IBM PC/XT clones. Both worked OK with all available software, from Borland and Microsoft compilers, to dBase III, Lotus 123 and games. There were lot of weird things about them (for example, Iskra-1030 had only monochrome monitor; ES series had a color one, but no HD at all) -- but such was most of PC compatibles made in various parts of the world.

I have on idea, what was Poland "Masovia", because I never met one. But I strongly doubt, what it was really better, than ES-1840, for example.

Uffff.... this was a lot of work. Hope, you're satisfied, at last.

So you seem you are not good prepared for this discussion. You either are not an expert or never heard or haven't read or need evidence or so.

When I say import goods were the most part better, you say people were idiots.

When I mention the Radio Leberty you say it's propaganda (btw they are a British station, not American)

When I provide some info, you say you never heard of that.

When I bring up some facts you require confirmation.

Buy wait, why should I? Who are you? Here I just want to share the info I know; I'm not writing for only you. And if you disagree with the info I'm presenting, you'd better find your own evidences to upset my ideas and provide them here!

Originally Posted by mishau_

So you seem you are not good prepared for this discussion.

Oh, really?

Originally Posted by mishau_

You either are not an expert or never heard or haven't read or need evidence or so.

If I'm not competent in certain area, I just said so. In the areas, in which I consider myself more or less competent -- like computers and audio equipment -- I provided my arguments (which you are, obviously, not going to refute).

Originally Posted by mishau_

When I say import goods were the most part better, you say people were idiots.

You gave no reasons, *why* these goods are actually better. Your appeal to opinion of ordinary Homo Soveticus'es is not convincing for me. Yes, these people were idiots. Everybody judging things not by their objective qualities, but by adverts, nicely colored stickers, or auntie Manya's opinion *is* an idiot.

Originally Posted by mishau_

When I mention the Radio Leberty you say it's propaganda (btw they are a British station, not American)

Maybe, you meant some other Radio Liberty?
The only one I know is RL/RFE. It is obviously American, it is sponsored by US government, and it's even not much of a secret:

http://www.rferl.org/about/organization/brief.asp

RFE/RL in Brief
RADIO FREE EUROPE/RADIO LIBERTY
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty is a private, international communications service to Eastern and Southeastern Europe, Russia, the Caucasus, Central Asia, the Middle East, and Southwestern Asia, funded by the U.S. Congress through the Broadcasting Board of Governors.

Originally Posted by mishau_

When I provide some info, you say you never heard of that.
When I bring up some facts you require confirmation.

Precisely. I really have this nasty habit -- when I'm face some information, which I never heard before, and which don't look as credible for me, I'm asking for some confirmation.
You'll be surprised, how frequently this "information" appeared to be complete and utter BS.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Buy wait, why should I? Who are you? Here I just want to share the info I know; I'm not writing for only you. And if you disagree with the info I'm presenting, you'd better find your own evidences to upset my ideas and provide them here!

If you are so offended by the need to prove your point -- better keep away from Internet forums. Discuss things with internet bots -- they never argue back.

I really have this nasty habit -- when I'm face some information, which I never heard before, and which don't look as credible for me, I'm asking for some confirmation

I, me, my - who are you after all, the moderator or administrator something? I'd defenitely provide a lot of evidences for everyone except you; you don't need any. No one but you ask for evidences all the time. I don't think you deserve even a wee bit my free time to provide them for you. You were quite impolite and sharpshooting me all the time. So what can you excpect from me?

And please, do not advise me which forums I should visit. You are not the moderator and actually in this case it's not quite your business what I should do.

And when you come across some info you never heard of, it's up to you wether to believe it or not. It's your own ignorance and if you like to point it out, it's up to you to ask evendence or stuff. I'm providing my own ideas and impressions and I do not wish to teach you history or how to use the wiki or google or stuff. If you don't like the ideas what I'm speaking of, just upset them.

But if you don't know how to upset one's ideas, please do not intervene and do not make a trash of the thread saying that it's is a "verbal diarrhea" or "give me evidence" or stuff. I'm providing my own ideas and
if you haven't learnt how to respect someone's opinion yet (either in the Soviet times or now), I must say it's too bad for you then.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

For all the great promises of communism, it has one major flaw: It doesn't work.

Thank you, kalinka. SOMEONE sums it up for the rest of us...

If it really did work, how come the Soviet Union collapsed?

[quote=laxxy]

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by scotcher

Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":1r2nmypp

Well, that is quite an oversimplifaction, young Jedi. He vetoed the bill that would allow stem cell research using live cells from embryos. The veto doesn't put any limitation on stem cell research using adult cells. The difference is that to get the stem cells from embyros you have to kill the embyro, being a potential human being, while adult cells you can just scrape off your skin to grow more skin. So your statement: "if I could be saved by growing cells from my own body" isn't against the law, unless you are an embyro. But if you were an embyro, you wouldn't need a lung in the first place. So that's that.

That in itself is a bit of a simplification. He didn't veto a bill allowing the research, he vetoed a bill allowing federal funding for that research.

True you are. The state of California has allowed such research through a proposition not long aho, but I think the Senate is challenging it...

Er? I am confused, does the state of California have any authority over the federal funds? And if this is about state funds, what does the Senate have to do with it?[/quote:1r2nmypp]

California wants to provide funds for stem cell research on a state level. But last I heard was that some senators were trying to block it based on that it is unconstitutional or something... Heck, maybe it was the state senate!

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

For all the great promises of communism, it has one major flaw: It doesn't work.

Thank you, kalinka. SOMEONE sums it up for the rest of us...

If it really did work, how come the Soviet Union collapsed?

Well it didn't work for USSR, maybe it will work for Vietnam? Or China? Communism is like capitalism, there are many different flavors.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I would rather call him a neo-tsar than a neo-communist. He just wants a strong and stable Russia.

PUTIN IS A COMMUNIST, PEOPLE! WOULD A NON-COMMUNIST STAND BETWEEN THE FLAG OF THE SOVIET UNION AND ONE THAT SAYS СОВЕТСКИЙ (SOVYETSKY) ON IT?!

a) that is not the soviet flag
b) why the hell not? Didn't Reagan stand next to Gorbachov? Doesn't that make him a communist too?

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

a) that is not the soviet flag
b) why the hell not? Didn't Reagan stand next to Gorbachov? Doesn't that make him a communist too?

Duh. Of course it does. He was the one that said Доверяй, но проверяй, which means he spoke Russian. And as we all know, if you speak Russian, you are at least a communist if not in the mafia. Or you are a mail-order bride or sex-slave, but I'd prefer not to think of Reagan in that sense. :shudder:

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

a) that is not the soviet flag
b) why the hell not? Didn't Reagan stand next to Gorbachov? Doesn't that make him a communist too?

OK so the hammer and sickle's white there instead of yellow. It's the same general idea. And Reagan was a president which meant he had to travel to the USSR so no duh he'd wind up standing next to Gorbachev. Putin looks like he's voluntarily giving a speech between those communist flags.

Ok, he was a communist, so what? Is it a crime?

Yes..look what communism did to Russia. Was killing millions of innocent people a crime? Was creating food shortages a crime? Was taking people to the gulag at midnight to have them work there for years a crime? Yes.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Yes..look what communism did to Russia. Was killing millions of innocent people a crime? Was creating food shortages a crime? Was taking people to the gulag at midnight to have them work there for years a crime? Yes.

You mix an ideology (distorted by the politicians, btw) and ordinary people. Average soviet communist of 80-th had nothing to do with Gulags or cilling innocent people. No more than other average soviet citizen. Some communist among the old people were just idealists (though they were rare), and a lot of communists at the time were "career" communists (you had to be the member of "the Party" to get some kinds of jobs).
Most of the population of the USSR was absolutely politically indifferent, including some communists. The ideology was everywhere, but it was routine, and nobody paid to much attention to it.

(I'm not defending Putin here. I'm just trying to say that position communist=evil is childish)

Yes, most Soviet citizens were just average people with nothing to do with gulags. My point was that the government, which was run by communists, was the one that did have somethin to do with gulags...

And yes, I know you had to join the Party just to get a job. My dad had a friend from Czechoslovakia who had to do that. They themselves are not necessarily corrupt, because they don't necessarily like communism, they just want to get jobs. I'm only criticizing those who do like communism, i.e. those in power who ran the system.