Thread: G8 Summit and Russia's Prez

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Should I mention they invaded most of that countries to oppose to USA, who invaded these countries as well? Do you mean, that's ok for USA to keep acting that way nowadays just because it's not a communist country? Well, I see double standart here.

No, the US did not invade Finland, we did not invade Hungary or Czechoslovakia, and we did not invade Afghanistan in 1979 (our current invasion is a completely different story and I don't want to get into that since this is not an American politics forum). Anyway, the USSR invaded Czechoslovakia and Hungary to crush anti-communist revolts, not to stop the US. I dunno where you got that...

And yes, we did point missiles at you that were based in Turkey, but they were there to counter yours in Cuba, in case you fired them. Ours weren't just put there cuz we felt like it.

And believe me...I don't believe everything my government says. Creeping socialism (which is ...here we go again ...similar to communism) is becoming a problem in this country, and several of our Congressmen/Senators are complete whackos whom I have no trust in.

And I don't want to be rich, either...just make a good enough living to get by. And I don't watch Oprah

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Geez I didn't say you were ALL communists, I just said the only people I've met seem to support that point of view. I know there are surely other people here who don't, but I was only saying that OF THE ONES I'VE SPOKEN WITH, that's not the case. I made no mention of other people here whom I haven't spoken with liking communism. Before you go calling people ignorant perhaps you should actually READ their posts carefully and figure out that they're not generalizing and saying EVERYONE is a commie.

On the contrary READ YOUR OWN POST:Sigh...I haven't met a single person on this board who isn't a communist, or who doesn't disagree with communism. If I had known that practically everyone here is like that I wouldn't have joined.
Now, having reread your post, what does it say? I don't know how this gets any simpler. When you say you haven't met a single person on this board who isn't a commie, then that's what you mean. You made a silly broad-brush statement, whether you intended it or not (not to mention the fact that you actually contradict yourself in the very next sentence there).

That means I haven't met anyone who's not a communist. So I haven't. That doesn't mean I said EVERYONE is a communist here, it just means I haven't met any non-commies.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

No, the US did not invade Finland, we did not invade Hungary or Czechoslovakia, and we did not invade Afghanistan in 1979 (our current invasion is a completely different story...

Well, I said MOST of these countries (I'm careful with my words). What's about Afghanistan, there was an attempt to depose USSR-friendly regime by *cough* some country. I'm sure you know that.
And btw USA supported at the time notorious Osama bin Laden and political forces, that added their power to modern terrorism (way to go, guys!)

and I don't want to get into that since this is not an American politics forum.

?? It's pretty close to the topic we're discussing.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

And I don't watch Oprah

Oh, at least we have something in common.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Well, I said MOST of these countries (I'm careful with my words). What's about Afghanistan, there was an attempt to depose USSR-friendly regime by *cough* some country. I'm sure you know that.
And btw USA supported at the time notorious Osama bin Laden and political forces, that added their power to modern terrorism (way to go, guys!)

Yeah, but our country isnt governed by some philosophy that says "no war ever" as communism does. I was highlighting an example of the Soviets' failure to stick to the anti-war part of the communist theory, not tryin to say who invaded more countries. And Afghanistan is only ONE of the four countries I mentioned, it's not "most".

And we're trying to get rid of bin Laden NOW, hence the current Afghanistan, so it comes full circle. (I'm sure I'm gonna get a slew of posts about this one... )

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

And Afghanistan is only ONE of the four countries I mentioned, it's not "most".

Vietnam? Korea?

Oh yeah, my bad I forgot about those...

As for Korea, we were there to --again-- stop communism from taking over. As for Vietnam, I really have no opinion on whether we should've been there or not. I'm still in high school (last year thankfully) and I haven't really been taught a whole lot about Vietnam, so I don't have enough information to form an opinion.

And again, I'm not saying it was OK for the US to invade Vietnam/Korea, I'm just saying that we, unlike the Soviets, didn't violate an anti-war philosophy in the theory of our own government, because we don't have one to violate...I was pointing out the Soviets' violation of their own govt's principal.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

As for Vietnam, I really have no opinion on whether we should've been there or not.

It's nice you're trying to form your own opinion.
But IMHO NO country has right to military invade ANY other country to change or influence that country's politics.

I don't believe in liberation crusades. they are never altruistic no matter what the invader claims.

As for Korea, we were there to --again-- stop communism from taking over.

Yeah, it looks like we vehemently tried to stop each other crashing other countries between our bodies.
But still can't understand your self-righteous position. What right did you have to make decisions for other country?

The whole situation reminds me of one funny cartoon I saw in my teenage magazine back in late 80th. They took it from some french paper or magazine.

Two clowns face each other, both holding nuclear missiles behind their backs. Their dialogue (abridged):
Hi, I'm very friendly and want peace.
I'm friendly too and want peace as well.
So why are you holding that missile?
To defend myself from you.
But you don't need this! Drop it!
Why is that?
Hey, I told you I'm friendly, ain't I?!

Of course I forgot most of it and probably spoiled the idea, but the dialogue was hilarious and I almost laughed my head off.
Now I think it's very sad that 15 years later nothing changed.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

]
Yeah, it looks like we vehemently tried to stop each other crashing other countries between our bodies.
But still can't understand your self-righteous position. What right did you have to make decisions for other country?

Well I dunno, I wasn't in the government. I didn't say I thought it was OK for us to invade--well, I didn't intend to say that, I just explained why we did.

OK, Russki, so you agreed that being a communist doesn't mean you are a bad person. You are simply a person who strives for an ideal (a utopia). So why is the fact that Putin was a communist so bad?

Now, if you wake up and smell the fish, Russia is only 15 years past the collapse of the Soviet Union and Communism per se. You expect that politicians who are older than 15 years and lived their whole lives in communist Russia do not have any communist ties in the past? Get real!

I say: So what if Putin was a communist, so was Yeltsin! You'll be hard pressed to find a politician who wasn't! I don't see the problem here!

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Geez I didn't say you were ALL communists, I just said the only people I've met seem to support that point of view. I know there are surely other people here who don't, but I was only saying that OF THE ONES I'VE SPOKEN WITH, that's not the case. I made no mention of other people here whom I haven't spoken with liking communism. Before you go calling people ignorant perhaps you should actually READ their posts carefully and figure out that they're not generalizing and saying EVERYONE is a commie.

You regret about people who believe that communism is not that bad, right? Well, have you read the theory? Marx, Engels?
Communism is an utopia much like "perfect societies" described by Thomas More, Claude Henri de Rouvroy or Robert Owen.
It is a dream, a chimerical one, but beautiful nevertheless. In theory, communism is much more attractive than capitalism.
People of my country tried that and have shed a lot of blood for this dream to come true. I respect that regardless of my own views.
Capitalism praises and encourages the worst in a man's character proclaiming it to be a vitrue. It is working though, unlike the communism.
Russia has tried communism and failed. The realization has gone awry but the dream of a perfect society still lives on. Spare the dream. Who knows, maybe in a distant future communism will have another chance. And who knows, it may even work some day.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Second, communism hardly has anything to do with Stalin (and with Soviet Union as well). Communism is utopia which had in mind social justice, equality, satisfaction of all your needs and so on, and so on. Blah-blah-blah. In short communism is universal and total hapiness (in theory). So tell me what's wrong with happiness (exept the fact it's unachievable ). In the end all people want the same: happy life and more opportunities for their children.

What I was talking about? *cough* Ah! So your hate for communism has no sense. it's just an echo of old "anticommunism" propaganda. Well, we were taught to hate capitalism, and you were taught to hate (and to fear?)communism.
For all the terrible crimes commited against russian (and other) people we should blame not the idea but the political regimes

That's the problem--since the theory of communism is unachievable it shouldn't even be attempted. Yet the Bolsheviks did attempt it and disaster ensued...at least while Stalin was alive. In theory communism denounced war, but the Soviets were involved with Vietnam and Korea (yes, we were too, but our government isn't run by some theory that says "no war ever"), not to mention they invaded Finland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Afghanistan, and pointed missiles at us.

Firstly USA threatened USSR with the bomb in 1945 and our first missiles flew only in late 1950s. Pointing missiles was an answer to the threat. USA named USSR as its primary enemy in 1945 while we were still allies.

And communism has nothing to do with that "no war ever" thing. Communism cannot be built in a separate country (a grave misconception of Post-Stalin Soviet leaders). According to primary sources it can be built only on an entire globe.

And perhaps your hate of capitalism is an echo of old "anticapitalism" propaganda...?

Perhaps, perhaps not.

And I was blaming political regimes. And the theory of communism is more than just "happiness", it involves everyone being equal in every way, i.e. no one has more money than anyone else.
That is not the way people naturally are--we can never all be equal in that sense. Some of us work harder than others so we're rewarded with better pay..we're not all equal.

Red one is a funny thing. A part of American 'ideology' (if I can use that word) states that all men are born equal. I may be wrong but something like that is written in the constitution of USA. What about that?

And where did you hear about money? Communism provides everything for everyone. That means that there is no money at all. Everyone can get everything he wants for free. Just because he needs it. And to repay for the benefits he shoud work voluntarily. The main motto of communism states 'From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs'. Communism doesn't need money.

Pure utopia is, as you said, unachievable. In fact, utopia means "no place" in Greek.

True. I believe though, that some day people will have managed to create a society that is very close to the described theory.

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Oh yeah, my bad I forgot about those...

As for Korea, we were there to --again-- stop communism from taking over.

And who gave you a right to stop anything that happens in sovereign country? Who gave you the right to say what is good for them and what is evil? Who gave you the right to ram your lifestyle down into throats of others? What makes you think that American way is the best?
Mind your own business. Every nation has a right to live as they want.
Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

And again, I'm not saying it was OK for the US to invade Vietnam/Korea, I'm just saying that we, unlike the Soviets, didn't violate an anti-war philosophy in the theory of our own government, because we don't have one to violate...I was pointing out the Soviets' violation of their own govt's principal.

There weren't anything in Soviet military doctrine that went across the ideology. The doctrine was defensive but technically, our invasion to Afghanistan was not an invasion but providing military help for the new government of Babrak Karmal. The fact that the old president Amin was killed by the "A" unit of KGB was kept in secret. The original plan was to seize Amin, bring him to Moscow and force him to sign an agreement between USSR and Afghanistan which would have effectively blocked any attemts of CIA to penetrate to this region. It hasn't occured to Brezhnev that Amin might himself shoot back so he was killed by accidental grenade explosion. A pure accident that resulted in 10 years of war and about 13000 of soviet soldiers dead. Nobody wanted this war.

Originally Posted by Ramil

And who gave you a right to stop anything that happens in sovereign country? Who gave you the right to say what is good for them and what is evil? Who gave you the right to ram your lifestyle down into throats of others? What makes you think that American way is the best?
Mind your own business. Every nation has a right to live as they want.
Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

Uh, then what were you doing in Afghanistan in 1979?

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Originally Posted by Ramil

And who gave you a right to stop anything that happens in sovereign country? Who gave you the right to say what is good for them and what is evil? Who gave you the right to ram your lifestyle down into throats of others? What makes you think that American way is the best?
Mind your own business. Every nation has a right to live as they want.
Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

Uh, then what were you doing in Afghanistan in 1979?

Protecting our geopolitical interests. I've never said that I justify our invasion there. It was accidental though, nobody wanted it. (see my previous post). Neither do I jusify our actions in Czechoslovakia or in Hungary. But these are lame excuses for America's actions now and during the whole 20-th century. At least presently Russia states that it fully supports inviolability of borders and doesn't create jobs by increasing military expenses in the budget.
Russia learnt from its experience, apparently USA didn't.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Protecting our geopolitical interests. I've never said that I justify our invasion there. It was accidental though, nobody wanted it. (see my previous post). Neither do I jusify our actions in Czechoslovakia or in Hungary. But these are lame excuses for America's actions now and during the whole 20-th century. At least presently Russia states that it fully supports inviolability of borders and doesn't create jobs by increasing military expenses in the budget.
Russia learnt from its experience, apparently USA didn't.

+10 and respect!!!

Originally Posted by Ramil

I may be wrong but something like that is written in the constitution of USA. What about that?

First of all it was the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. Second, it states that people are equal UNDER THE LAW. That means we all have a fair opportunity for a trial and should be treated fairly in court, etc. Everyone has an opportunity to achieve, but not everyone is capable of that. We're not all equal in the sense that we're all the same. Some people work harder and succeed, some people slack off and don't care, and you get back what you put in. We're not all rewarded equally for doing different amounts of work. (Except in socialist school systems like mine where we work in groups and the industrious students like myself do the work while the others slack off yet we all get the same good grade... )

Originally Posted by Ramil

Protecting our geopolitical interests. I've never said that I justify our invasion there. It was accidental though, nobody wanted it. (see my previous post). Neither do I jusify our actions in Czechoslovakia or in Hungary. But these are lame excuses for America's actions now and during the whole 20-th century. At least presently Russia states that it fully supports inviolability of borders and doesn't create jobs by increasing military expenses in the budget.
Russia learnt from its experience, apparently USA didn't.

Our business right now in Afghanistan is to get rid of terrorists. What's wrong with that?

Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

Originally Posted by Ramil

Protecting our geopolitical interests. I've never said that I justify our invasion there. It was accidental though, nobody wanted it. (see my previous post). Neither do I jusify our actions in Czechoslovakia or in Hungary. But these are lame excuses for America's actions now and during the whole 20-th century. At least presently Russia states that it fully supports inviolability of borders and doesn't create jobs by increasing military expenses in the budget.
Russia learnt from its experience, apparently USA didn't.

Our business right now in Afghanistan is to get rid of terrorists. What's wrong with that?

Your business is over entire globe. And FYI Usama Bin Laden is the creation of yours. He was a paid agent of CIA in the past and received trainig on how to do terrorism. You've created him and now he turned his back on you. Your media created yet another 'devil' to frighten children.
In reality CIA wants to Afghanistan in order not to subdue the Taliban which exists no more but to put its dirty hands on the heroine trade flourishing in the region. Drugs trade is a very profitable business and USA desperately needs money to finance its illegal operations all over the world. A world-scale racketeer.