Thread: Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

Originally Posted by Crocodile

As you might know, the Soviet propaganda used to be one of the most powerful and influential in the world.

This statement defeats itself! You yourself are living proof that it didn't work! Not to mention the other people who literally destroyed and sold out everything that the USSR stood for; good and bad. People who used glasnost and perestroika as an opportunity to vent the fact that they were sick and tired of socialism and didn't believe in the Soviet ideals. This propaganda didn't work millions of people who left the country between the revolution and the end of the USSR, and it wasn't enough to keep the country alive. I'd say this propaganda wasn't efficient at all.

Seems to me it worked only on kids, a few optimists who choose to see the good sides, or visitors and others who only experienced the good sides but not the bad.

Or maybe it worked up to a certain point in time, when people got fixated with comparing their lifestyle to that of people in US soaps or Hollywood productions.

Efficient propaganda is propaganda that the majority believe in! The Nazis were really good at propaganda particularly if you consider the outrageousness of the things they made the majority of the people go along with. It might not work today, but in the 1940s it was genius. Lots of people in Scandinavia more or less believed it, despite not even living in Germany.
Most Germans didn't vote for the Nazis when they first came to power, but after only a few years in power the Nazis had most of the population behind them and got away with creating a one party state.

The USA manages to convince the majority that it's right to go to war on foreign continents again and again and again even though plenty are struggling or living in poverty... Think about how wrong this is, on a number of levels. Yet they have the majority of the population behind them, That's efficient propaganda. Not to mention whipping up hatred against anyone with an ideology or belief that contradicts theirs. If you mention the word Communism to an American, most would react with strong dislike or content despite in most cases not even knowing what it actually is.

Right now it seems they have done a pretty good job convincing many decent people that Snowden is a bad guy while downplaying the importance of his actual revelations which are absolutely earth shattering but ignored in mainstream media. I'd say this is extremely efficient propaganda.Right now it seems they have done a pretty good job convincing many decent people that Snowden is a bad guy while downplaying the importance of his actual revelations which are absolutely earth shattering but ignored in mainstream media. I'd say this is extremely efficient propaganda.

Some Islamic fundamentalists are really good at propaganda too: Israel is the root of all evil, closely followed by it's puppet, the USA. Millions upon millions genuinely believe that Israel is masterminding just about every misfortunte that befalls other countries despite its tiny size and small population compared for example with the moslems themselves.

I think all the examples I mentioned beats Soviet propaganda. Soviet propaganda probably had some good moments, like during the war and at times when the USSR made impressive achievements. But in the end, the propaganda didn't hold up!

BTW, Putin's lack of enthusiasm about Snowden being in Russia seriously makes me wonder what the deal is.

Is he under pressure from his "American partners"?
Does he have his own spy program of internet usage and secretly fears a Russian Snowden?
Or is he annoyed that Snowden doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic about being in Russia, instead preferring South America.

IMHO he ought to say that Snowden's done the world a favour and is obviously welcome to stay and get some protection. I guess it says something about Russia and Putin that doesn't make me feel very enthusiastic.

I wonder what would have happened if Snowden had gone to Ukraine or Belarus instead? Or Kazakhstan?

Soviet propaganda was built upon the blood of those who dared not to believe it; hypocrites who pretend not to understand that bring up nothing but irritation...

Originally Posted by Hanna

BTW, Putin's lack of enthusiasm about Snowden being in Russia seriously makes me wonder what the deal is.

Is he under pressure from his "American partners"?
Does he have his own spy program of internet usage and secretly fears a Russian Snowden?
Or is he annoyed that Snowden doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic about being in Russia, instead preferring South America.

IMHO he ought to say that Snowden's done the world a favour and is obviously welcome to stay and get some protection. I guess it says something about Russia and Putin that doesn't make me feel very enthusiastic.

American spy asks for asylum in Russia
It's so much a cliché that no wonder nobody wants to be a part of it
Thingerpointing is on the way

American propaganda is the best in the world, in my opinion. Because Americans, by and large, still believe their country is the "land of the free" and even as their freedoms are being taken away in the name of "security" and this contrived "war on terror" they support the government, practically in lockstep.

And yet, we now have "checkpoints" set up by the Department of Homeland Security on major highways, where you are required to pull over and give them your documentation and they will ask for samples of your blood.

We have a wall along the Mexican border which Senator John McCain recently bragged about, saying it is "bigger and better" than the Berlin Wall.

Our police agencies are starting to use drone aircraft for surveillance purposes. They have already been discussing arming the drone aircraft for use against US citizens too.

And those of us who speak out against these things are often called "unamerican" and "traitors."

I guess I am getting too old. I remember the old days when things like this were only supposed to happen in other countries. I was raised believing that these things only happened behind the Iron Curtain. I remember when Soviet spies requested asylum in the US and we granted it despite condemnation from the USSR.

But the US helped orchestrate the fall of the USSR (Charlie Wilson's war), and then the US stepped in to be the only remaining super-power, and rather than reduce weapons and defense spending we INCREASED it and went on the attack globally, all in the name of this "war on terror" which can never be won.

American propaganda is the best in the world because even the poorest American believes he is really just a millionaire in waiting, and that one day his ship will come in and he will be wealthy like Donald Trump. We believe that anyone can be famous or wealthy, if they just work hard enough. And maybe at one point that was true. I certainly believed it myself, growing up. But these days, the balance has shifted, and not everyone has the opportunity to make their dreams come true.

As George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm, "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." That book, by the way, was actually meant to symbolize the Russian revolution. But these days, it could just as easily symbolize America.

Snowden is young and idealistic, and he released the data to the public because he wanted us to know the vast extent of our government's surveillance operations. Most tellingly, he did not accept money for the data he released and if he had wanted, I am sure some government would have happily paid him off. So in my mind he is a hero, albeit a little impulsive and young. He probably should have planned the data release a little better so that he did not end up like Tom Hank in "The Terminal" - trapped in the transit zone at Sheremetevo with no passport and no country. Now he says that he is willing to accept Putin's conditions for asylum in Russia, which means he cannot release any more data. But if Putin accepts Snowden's asylum request, it could trigger another cold war between our countries, so it is a very tenuous position for Putin to be in and I do not envy him the decision.

America is the most powerful nation on earth, despite the growing economic problems we have on our domestic front, because our "defense" budget is ten times greater than Russia's. But our actions have changed and instead of exporting the American dream of freedom and back-yard barbeques we export death and destruction. Our government has grown arrogant and plays the part of "world police," sticking its nose into the affairs of other countries rather than fixing the growing problems we have back home.

I for one, fear the karma we are creating for ourselves...

Originally Posted by Deborski

American propaganda is the best in the world, in my opinion. Because Americans, by and large, still believe their country is the "land of the free" and even as their freedoms are being taken away in the name of "security" and this contrived "war on terror" they support the government, practically in lockstep.

And yet, we now have "checkpoints" set up by the Department of Homeland Security on major highways, where you are required to pull over and give them your documentation and they will ask for samples of your blood.

We have a wall along the Mexican border which Senator John McCain recently bragged about, saying it is "bigger and better" than the Berlin Wall.

Our police agencies are starting to use drone aircraft for surveillance purposes. They have already been discussing arming the drone aircraft for use against US citizens too.

And those of us who speak out against these things are often called "unamerican" and "traitors."

I guess I am getting too old. I remember the old days when things like this were only supposed to happen in other countries. I was raised believing that these things only happened behind the Iron Curtain. I remember when Soviet spies requested asylum in the US and we granted it despite condemnation from the USSR.

But the US helped orchestrate the fall of the USSR (Charlie Wilson's war), and then the US stepped in to be the only remaining super-power, and rather than reduce weapons and defense spending we INCREASED it and went on the attack globally, all in the name of this "war on terror" which can never be won.

American propaganda is the best in the world because even the poorest American believes he is really just a millionaire in waiting, and that one day his ship will come in and he will be wealthy like Donald Trump. We believe that anyone can be famous or wealthy, if they just work hard enough. And maybe at one point that was true. I certainly believed it myself, growing up. But these days, the balance has shifted, and not everyone has the opportunity to make their dreams come true.

As George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm, "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." That book, by the way, was actually meant to symbolize the Russian revolution. But these days, it could just as easily symbolize America.

Snowden is young and idealistic, and he released the data to the public because he wanted us to know the vast extent of our government's surveillance operations. Most tellingly, he did not accept money for the data he released and if he had wanted, I am sure some government would have happily paid him off. So in my mind he is a hero, albeit a little impulsive and young. He probably should have planned the data release a little better so that he did not end up like Tom Hank in "The Terminal" - trapped in the transit zone at Sheremetevo with no passport and no country. Now he says that he is willing to accept Putin's conditions for asylum in Russia, which means he cannot release any more data. But if Putin accepts Snowden's asylum request, it could trigger another cold war between our countries, so it is a very tenuous position for Putin to be in and I do not envy him the decision.

America is the most powerful nation on earth, despite the growing economic problems we have on our domestic front, because our "defense" budget is ten times greater than Russia's. But our actions have changed and instead of exporting the American dream of freedom and back-yard barbeques we export death and destruction. Our government has grown arrogant and plays the part of "world police," sticking its nose into the affairs of other countries rather than fixing the growing problems we have back home.

I for one, fear the karma we are creating for ourselves...

Karma isn't something a bunch of people share, everyone has a karma of their own; I like the individualistic approach that lets me think this way, and so do most of the Americans; do you, Deb?

Originally Posted by Doomer

American spy asks for asylum in Russia
It's so much a cliché that no wonder nobody wants to be a part of it
Thingerpointing is on the way

Well, fair enough, I guess. But a lot of people and a lot of countries would have admired Russia for taking a stand.
If I was Snowden I'd pick Russia any day over South America.
The situation in South America seems so unstable. I mean, they are liberals one day, socialists the next... Then a pro USA military regime. One day a democracy, the next day next.

Snowden might find that just as he settled into Ecuador, Venezuela or Bolivia there is a military coup... Or in light of these countries practically being the playground backyard of the USA, he might simply get kidnapped or executed, even without a coup. He's safer in Russia! Or possibly China.

At least in Russia, there is more stability in the politics. (As people like to point out here.... it looks like the current government is here to stay, for better or worse) hey would not let themselves be caught out by a coup or allow Snowden to be kidnapped or executed.

Originally Posted by Deborski

American propaganda is the best in the world, in my opinion. Because Americans, by and large, still believe their country is the "land of the free" and even as their freedoms are being taken away in the name of "security" and this contrived "war on terror" they support the government, practically in lockstep.

Precisely my opinion. Congrats to you on not having drunk the kool-aid (to use an American expression, lol. The meaning being: Deborski did not believe the propaganda/hype. Such a good expression. )



And I wasn't going to rant anymore about this, but I just read in the paper today that Swedish fingerprints (which you have to leave to get a passport!!!) and DNA registers will be shared with the USA "in the fight for terrorism".
Yeah right.

Plus, when I questioned the need to give my fingerprint they told me "We added this to the new Biometric passports at the request of the USA. But your fingerprint will never be shared with anyone; it's just for security to identify that you are the rightful owner of your passport". At least they don't have my DNA yet, since I didn't commit any crimes.

How would you guys like it, if your country demanded your fingerprint, before they give you a passport allowing you to travel abroad. Then they make your fingerprint available to another country! http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/usa...-fingeravtryck.

Ed Snowden is fighting this absolutely grotesque global Big Brother state. I am 100% behind him. As far as heroes of the internet are concerned, he is Number 1!

Originally Posted by Hanna

How would you guys like it, if your country demanded your fingerprint, before they give you a passport allowing you to travel abroad. Then they make your fingerprint available to another country!

You need to move to Russia, Hanna
Russia doesn't care about your fingerprints
Yet

Originally Posted by Deborski

But if Putin accepts Snowden's asylum request, it could trigger another cold war between our countries, so it is a very tenuous position for Putin to be in and I do not envy him the decision.

Are you sure? Your favourite network makes it sound like Putin is doing his own thing:

Russia in largest war games since Soviet era - CNN.com

I don't think the U.S. could do much to Russia if they decided to process Snowden's request. I disagree with the statement (said by whom? You or Hanna), that Putin should make some sort of statement and be enthusiastic about doing so. No, he doesn't have to make any statement but just go by the law (haha - I know). It's that simple. Instead, he's an opportunist, nothing else. He stands up to the U.S. about Syria (well, sorta) and other issues but not this one.

Both the Soviet Union and the USSA (if you watch youtube videos, many people call the USA this) are both good at propaganda. Putin still knows how to work it (former KGB / FSB after all).

Originally Posted by Hanna

...At least they don't have my DNA yet, since I didn't commit any crimes. ...

If any samples of blood for ANY reason have been drawn (hospital, dentist, clinics..etc) then guess again... The tentacles go way beyond what is generally known.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Are you sure? Your favourite network makes it sound like Putin is doing his own thing:

Russia in largest war games since Soviet era - CNN.com

I don't think the U.S. could do much to Russia if they decided to process Snowden's request. I disagree with the statement (said by whom? You or Hanna), that Putin should make some sort of statement and be enthusiastic about doing so. No, he doesn't have to make any statement but just go by the law (haha - I know). It's that simple. Instead, he's an opportunist, nothing else. He stands up to the U.S. about Syria (well, sorta) and other issues but not this one.

Both the Soviet Union and the USSA (if you watch youtube videos, many people call the USA this) are both good at propaganda. Putin still knows how to work it (former KGB / FSB after all).

Well, maybe Snowden had a feeling that exactly this would happen, whereas I imagined that Russia would actually think it was cool to give the USA a taste of its own medicine. The USA is forever on about "human rights" in Russian, tries to imagine military aggressiveness where there is none, and alluding that the media in Russia is state controlled "by Putin"....etc, etc.

Here, Russia could have been the country standing up for human rights, freedom of speech and against government corruption in another country.

However, it sounds like the fear of echoes from the Cold War, lukewarm interest and suspicion from the public in Russia, and the relationship with the "American partners" weighs stronger.

Whatever the Russian public thinks is fine by me -- maybe I was naive in thinking people would take an interest and support it.

Also, I think Edward Snowden was a little naive. If he wanted Russia's support, he should have gone straight there and appealed to the public. If he fancied a life in South America, then why go to Hong Kong first? I really don't get why he went there at all. Perhaps it was not planned out at all, but he simply reacted without having all the fact and weighing the alternative.

Originally Posted by Seraph

If any samples of blood for ANY reason have been drawn (hospital, dentist, clinics..etc) then guess again... The tentacles go way beyond what is generally known.

Have you actually got any proof for that? It sounds a bit far-fetched...

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Are you sure? Your favourite network makes it sound like Putin is doing his own thing:

Russia in largest war games since Soviet era - CNN.com

I don't think the U.S. could do much to Russia if they decided to process Snowden's request. I disagree with the statement (said by whom? You or Hanna), that Putin should make some sort of statement and be enthusiastic about doing so. No, he doesn't have to make any statement but just go by the law (haha - I know). It's that simple. Instead, he's an opportunist, nothing else. He stands up to the U.S. about Syria (well, sorta) and other issues but not this one.

Both the Soviet Union and the USSA (if you watch youtube videos, many people call the USA this) are both good at propaganda. Putin still knows how to work it (former KGB / FSB after all).

Erm.... I do not watch CNN.... not sure how/why you think it is "my favorite network." I've mainly been following The Guardian UK on the Snowden case, as well as some other UK and Russian news sites.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How would you guys like it, if your country demanded your fingerprint, before they give you a passport allowing you to travel abroad. Then they make your fingerprint available to another country! USA och Sverige byter fingeravtryck - DN.SE.

Ed Snowden is fighting this absolutely grotesque global Big Brother state. I am 100% behind him. As far as heroes of the internet are concerned, he is Number 1!

I think we are headed in that direction. DHS agents are already asking for blood at checkpoints on our highways so that they can record our DNA and save it in their extensive databases. For now, their requests are voluntary, but a few more years and who knows how voluntary it will be?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Have you actually got any proof for that? It sounds a bit far-fetched...

This is what stealth is all about.

Russia could finally retaliate to Viktor Bout's illegal imprisonment

Originally Posted by Doomer

You need to move to Russia, Hanna
Russia doesn't care about your fingerprints
Yet

Yeah, I think people are slightly freer in Russia, for the moment. Less invasion of privacy.
I've noticed here on MR and elsewhere that Russian people are just very cynical and sceptical, and probably wouldn't stand for too much invasion of privacy.

Plus, I think the society is a little more "old fashioned" in the bureacracy. It's easier to spy on people if you are using the very latest technology for everything and keep it in databases that can be cross-referenced between different authorities.

One thing I like about the UK though: You basically don't need an ID. I particularly like that for medical treatment.

But the creepiness is coming. For example when I wanted to buy a monthly train ticket I had to tell them my address. I asked them why and they couldn't respond. Just read in the paper that Oyster cards (smart travel cards in London) have been used 8000 times to catch criminal, because the police can pull out the record of where the person travelled.

Basically, privacy is dead and Snowden is the one who confirmed it.
You'd better have very mainstream opinions and behave within the norms of the "normal". Or you'll get picked up by data mining bots soon enough, and they can focus in on you.

And as for Russia: Well, the FSB was aware of the Tamerlan Tsarnaev's anti-West/pro-islam comments on social networking sites, right? So unless they stumbled across that by chance, they've got something going to keep an eye out for people.

You'd better have very mainstream opinions and behave within the norms of the "normal". Or you'll get picked up by data mining bots soon enough, and they can focus in on you.

I guess I'm screwed then

Also, according to this Russian article, US Senator John McCain (who a few weeks ago bragged that America's Mexican border wall is now "bigger and better" than the Berlin wall) is pushing to boycott the Olympics in Sochi if Russia does not hand Snowden over to the US.

I think that we are rapidly approaching the edge of another Cold War.

Сноуден готов остаться в

As for the privacy attitude on MR... You get on the chat, and there will inevitably come up the question among the first 2-3 asked ones, which is "where are you from?" Also, there are ppl on this thread who really made attempts to figure out my location around 2 years ago; and now they're expressing here their concerns about their privacy... I'm not trying to blame anyone in particular, but I think pretending to stand up for privacy while having such an attitude looks a bit ridiculous.

I found a sample of Edward Snowden's handwriting at this site: http://www.rts.rs/page/stories/ci/st...%D0%B0%3F.html

The sample is his application for asylum in the Russian Federation, and it appears to have been made in a hurry on whatever paper he could find, ostensibly because he is stuck in the transit zone at Sheremetevo.

snowden asylum app.jpg

I am a certified handwriting analyst and just briefly looking at this sample, I can make the following observations:

1. Snowden's signature where he scratches out his name but also forms a strong triangle shape on the end - reveals self loathing but also determination. This could have to do with the current situation he is in rather than referencing a constant frame of mind. He also seems angry, annoyed (with himself).

2. The writer's preference for printing rather than cursive, while typical of his generation, also reveals someone who prefers privacy, hides his personality from others

3. The round o's with no inner loops show honesty, bluntness

4. he is very attentive to detail, but tends to be a selective listener.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I found a sample of Edward Snowden's handwriting at this site: http://www.rts.rs/page/stories/ci/st...%D0%B0%3F.html

The sample is his application for asylum in the Russian Federation, and it appears to have been made in a hurry on whatever paper he could find, ostensibly because he is stuck in the transit zone at Sheremetevo.

snowden asylum app.jpg

I am a certified handwriting analyst and just briefly looking at this sample, I can make the following observations:

1. Snowden's signature where he scratches out his name but also forms a strong triangle shape on the end - reveals self loathing but also determination. This could have to do with the current situation he is in rather than referencing a constant frame of mind. He also seems angry, annoyed (with himself).

2. The writer's preference for printing rather than cursive, while typical of his generation, also reveals someone who prefers privacy, hides his personality from others

3. The round o's with no inner loops show honesty, bluntness

4. he is very attentive to detail, but tends to be a selective listener.

He really did himself write that thing huh?