Thread: Cold War between US and Russia (again)?

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I absolutely do NOT think that all self-criticism of America (or the West) by Americans (or Westerners) is "oikophobic" -- nor do I mean to accuse anyone on this thread of "oikophobia." Vigorous criticism of oneself or "one's own" can be healthy. But I think it's worth remembering that xenophobia -- which is an irrational degree of contempt for the strange and foreign -- sometimes does have an exact opposite, namely an irrational contempt for the people next door.

And I agree with the famous writer "Anne Onymous", who famously said that "A hatred of the bourgeoisie is totally bourgeois."

Maybe you misinterpret my frustration for "hate."

Originally Posted by Deborski

Maybe you misinterpret my frustration for "hate."

Well, maybe I did misinterpret.

But I'd point out that "brainwashed" is a decidedly loaded and pejorative term -- no one ever says it about someone whose point-of-view they agree with!

You coulda said, more neutrally, "a lot of Americans are more influenced by mass media than they realize" or "corporate messages play a historically unprecedented role in the socialization and enculturation of modern Americans," or whatever.

Russia Bashing Is A Dead End - OpEd

Back on topic, I especially enjoyed this op-ed written by the former Director of Defense Policy Studies at the Cato Institute:

What did Vladimir Putin get from the United States for saving President Obama from himself during the Syrian chemical weapons “crisis”? Only criticism and ridicule from a reflexive anti-Russian American news media.

For example, Fox News Channel, often a proponent of high-testosterone American responses to almost any international crisis, kept poking fun at Putin’s personal machismo by cycling film of him flipping opponents at a judo session with a photo of him hunting shirtless with a high-powered rifle. Other more mainstream media scolded Putin for his recent “in-your-face” op-ed in the New York Times, with special indignation in response to the Russian president’s criticism of U.S. “exceptionalism.” More universally, pundits either stated or implied that the Russian leader loved to intentionally tweak the Americans out of pique or that he couldn’t be trusted.

This outpouring of American ire was astounding in that it came as Russia effectively pressured Syria, its only remaining Middle Eastern ally, to promise to join the Chemical Weapons Convention and destroy, by 2014, all of its sizable chemical weapons stockpile.

When someone is trying to help you, it is usually considered bad form, in addition to being stupid, to kick sand in the person’s face. Why does the US media pick on Russia? Although Putin has certainly made Russia more authoritarian, the US government regularly supports despots as long as they play ball with American aims—for example, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Egypt as they abuse and repress their own people. Yet hypocritically, the United States criticizes the Russians for supporting the authoritarian Syrian regime. The real rub is that the current Russian leader, unlike his predecessor, the drunk buffoon Boris Yeltsin, refuses to be an American lackey and endure post-Cold War US insults. Perhaps the American media should spend less time haughtily defending American exceptionalism and more time realizing that just because some countries disagree with American policy on certain issues, they are not necessarily out to get the United States.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Well, maybe I did misinterpret.

But I'd point out that "brainwashed" is a decidedly loaded and pejorative term -- no one ever says it about someone whose point-of-view they agree with!

You coulda said, more neutrally, "a lot of Americans are more influenced by mass media than they realize" or "corporate messages play a historically unprecedented role in the socialization and enculturation of modern Americans," or whatever.

To be fair, in both cases you cited, I was replying to another person's comment.
Neverthless, point taken.
Though I must add that I am not sure why I am the one singled out to be upbraided for a word several others have also employed.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

That's funny how American people on this thread blame the Congress and politicians for things like another Cold War, etc., while the Russians here tend to blame America for all the sh*t that's going on; I think that says a lot about the level of brainwashing on each side.

As for Russia, what is going on seems more like distortion of information about real state of affairs (or careful selection of information to be presented, avoiding certain aspects, or biased presentation) which is probably not so costly as brainwashing. I would apply brainwashing to something like neo-Nazi movements, or as a mild form to some religious propaganda. I am a big fan of presenting information 'per se' (which is one of the key premises of journalism as far as I understand) and it should be up to the recipient to conclude what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'. So by that logic any biased information can be regarded as something that shouldn't be believed outright, which is especially important when information is consumed over fast periods of time on the Internet. People also tend to make big conclusions based on superficial knowledge of the facts (that happens every day).

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

But I'd point out that "brainwashed" is a decidedly loaded and pejorative term -- no one ever says it about someone whose point-of-view they agree with!

Yes, most people use that word as a strong synonym of "wrong". I prefer different treatment though. "Brainwashed" is a person who takes some statement as a dogma and is unable to consider it critically. Any opposition, non-canonical treatment of even formulation of that statement switches a reflex of a brainwashed person and makes it not only ignore the point of the whole message but even enrages. Basically "brainwashed" person has not a point-of-view but only an illusion. For me it is extremely disgusting no matter of the side taken. In a discussion the support from the brainwashed "ally" can ruin any position if accepted.

"Brainwashed" effect mostly is not (only) the effect of state (or whatever) propaganda but the result of the intellectual laziness plus active position. A person enjoys the feeling that they have a point-of-view but does not want to work to make it.

The effect is widespread everywhere but can be dangerous only in certain configurations. Namely "brainwashed" external politics (1) of the powerful (2) democratic (3) state is a dangerous combination.

democratic (3) - brainwashed people can actually influence real decisions
powerful (2) - decisions can be of a really high stakes and can actually be implemented
external politics (1) - "brainwashed" people can easily ignore the actual consequences of implementing the decisions because they don't suffer from the results. Other people suffer.

If compared USA to Russia the latter is way not so powerful and way not so democratic even if in the same way obsessed with external politics. That's why "brainwashing" in Russia is not the phenomenon of the same danger level as "brainwashing" in USA.

Summary: more power should bring more responsibility.

А разве холодная война прекращалась?
"Онищенко обвинил США в биологической войне против России".

Глава Роспотребнадзора Геннадий Онищенко предложил Грузии закрыть американскую биолабораторию. По мнению главного санитарного врача России, таким образом США нарушают свои международные обязательства, а именно Конвенцию по биологическому и токсинному оружию.Американская биолаборатория – это весомое звено в наступательной части военно-биологического потенциала США. «Цель этой лаборатории – изучать ситуацию с природными очагами с циркуляцией вирусов на территории Российской Федерации и Закавказья», - заявил Онищенко, сообщает Утро.ру.
Как сообщала РБК daily ранее, в июне 2013 года, Онищенко обвинил Грузию в спланированной экономической диверсии против России. По его словам, африканская чума свиней пришла в южные и северокавказские регионы России с грузинской территории, и сделано это было специально. «Это четко спланированная акция, целью которой является подрыв экономики южных и северокавказских регионов России», - заявил Онищенко.

I can't speak for Americans, but certainly there is prejudice floating around about Russia in Europe. Right now I am working on a project that has a connection to Russia and I've heard no end of ridiculous comments from some colleagues.

The biggest and most disturbing thing is that lots of countries seem to imagine that Russia is interested in invading, if not them, then their neighbouring countries...

It's so misleading and wrong - simply false! History shows that it's almost always other countries attacking Russia, and not the other way around. So the paranoia is completely unfounded. And what does any nation really have, that Russia doesn't have in larger quantities? The only thing I have heard, which is vaguely realistic, is an ice-free port on the Atlantic - and I think Russia has figured out ways of compensating for the lack of that.

Compare with Germany and many other European nations which have attacked their neighbours on a regular basis for many hundreds of years. The USA which can and will invade or take down any country it doesn't like? How come Europeans are not scared of them, but worries about Russia? Some would bring up the situation in Eastern Europe between 1945 - 1990. Fifty-five measly years, and completely in line with what was agreed in front of the whole world at Yalta. What is the big deal? Plus it's completely irrelevant in a modern perspective, since the USSR is long gone.

If we are going to criticize Russia, let's do it for issues based in reality, not paranoia and propaganda based illusions.

I think any regular Europeans who visit Russia or socialise with Russians abroad will realise it's a cool people, and definitely not an aggressive people or nation. Interaction between normal people is the key to leaving the past behind. The stereotypes come from Hollywood films that have nothing to do with the real Russia, or Europeans. Why are people letting themselves be influence by such nonsense?

We really need to get drop the visa requirements both ways, so that people with Russian passports can enter the EU without problems, and vice versa. It's great that the winter olympics is in Sochi, and that the Eurovision took place in Moscow.

As for US vs American prejudice against the other, it's ridiculous. They are on different continents. Live and let live... To each his own.