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Thread: Cold War between US and Russia (again)?

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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Cold War between US and Russia (again)?

    So, is it too soon to say our countries may be entering into another Cold War period?

    These two articles published by the Russian news service RIA Novosti got me thinking about it.

    Americans’ Distrust of Russia Grows – Poll | World | RIA Novosti

    The number of Americans who expressed a fair amount to a great deal of trust in Russia fell from 33 percent in 2012 to 24 percent this year, while more than two-thirds of Americans – 68 percent – said they have little if any trust in Russia, the poll conducted by the Pew Research Center found.

    Last year 60 percent of Americans told Pew pollsters they didn’t trust Russia.

    Americans have the same level of distrust for Russia as they have for Saudi Arabia, according to the poll, and they trust Russia slightly less than they do China.

    Russians Feeling Increasingly Negative Toward US – Poll | World | RIA Novosti

    Overall, Russians currently feel the most negative about America since September 2008, a month after Russia fought a small war against the South Caucasus nation of Georgia, whose president had close ties with the US.

    The current overall sentiment, though, is more comparable to that of 2009, when the US and Russia marked a “reset” in bilateral relations.

    Still, 46 percent of Russians currently hold a positive view of America, the pollster said, adding that the figure comprised mostly young adults and residents of big cities.

    The people with the most negative perception of the US were respondents in small towns or those over the age of 45, the pollster added.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    All I can say is, the most relaxed period in U.S. - Russia relations was during the 1990s. Tensions began to rise back starting from the 2000s...

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    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    So, it is one-sided war (if we could match words 'trust' and 'war' at all)

    It's funny, that in Russia not a lot of things have changed but you say there are dynamics in opinions in the US ?
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Russians have a strong identity. День народного единства proved that in 1612. Americans have a strong identity too but the US identity is invasive. Dunno, maybe Americans thought that after the victory over the putschists that there was a chance to westernize Russia. But it didn't happen so maybe that's a huge part of the problem.
    I don't get why people can't just accept other cultures and learn from them. It's so easy.
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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    Russians have a strong identity. День народного единства proved that in 1612.
    It is absolutely artificial identity. Well, maybe it was important historically but now, I believe, most people have no Idea what happened that time. Russians were able to organize against polish invasion? Sounds kinda funny today. Ivan Susanin & "Life for the Zar"? Even more funny.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Властелин
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    Or is it Tepid Peace?
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    Почтенный гражданин DrBaldhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    It is absolutely artificial identity.
    The history itself is artificial since it's made by humans.
    I must admit that an idea of a Polish invasion or the loyalty towards the now discredited Romanovs might sound kinda ridiculous today. Yet, I find nothing funny about the year 1612. The Motherland was in peril and our ancestors arose to save it.
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    Подающий надежды оратор
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    I am amazed at this humans' feature to make judgments and estimation about the things which are so poorly pictured in their minds. Most of Americans and Russians have quite a poor idea what it is like to live in the country of their counterparts. I don't understand what they mean by

    "The number of Americans who expressed a fair amount to a great deal of trust in Russia fell from 33 percent in 2012 to 24 percent this year, while more than two-thirds of Americans – 68 percent – said they have little if any trust in Russia, the poll conducted by the Pew Research Center found."

    I understand what it means to have trust in God. But what is that supposed to mean "to have trust in Russia"? I think that media is using equivocating terms which simply mislead people. Plus Americans and Russians see one another through the lens of political movements of their leaders on the international arena. It's not the right way to get a genuine picture about each other I believe.
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    Властелин
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    @shnuddy, I am not sure the rianovosti texts are always written by native speakers of English.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsms View Post
    @shnuddy, I am not sure the rianovosti texts are always written by native speakers of English.
    Pew Research Center doesn't sound like rianovosti to me. Or do you think they are the same entity?

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    Властелин
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnuddy View Post
    I understand what it means to have trust in God. But what is that supposed to mean "to have trust in Russia"? I think that media is using equivocating terms which simply mislead people.
    i see, i've opened the Pew poll in pdf. It's 'trust in Russia'. I thought it was a linguistic question. I understand it as "доверие к России".

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Со стороны виднее?
    Вот перевод с турецкого.


    "Мы приближаемся к новой холодной войне?

    ("Anayurt", Турция)
    Хусейин Багджи (Prof. Dr. Hüseyin BAĞCI)

    Недавние резкие заявления президентов Барака Обамы и Владимира Путина во всем мире вызывают один вопрос: неужели начинается новая холодная война? По всей видимости, удовлетворение запроса гражданина США Эдварда Сноудена о предоставлении убежища в России после обнародования им американских разведданных и невозвращения в США во избежание судебного преследования продемонстрировало силу России и вместе с тем слабость США. Таким образом, заявление Барака Обамы о том, что он не считает «предателя» Сноудена «патриотом», повлечет за собой новые декламации и проблемы.


    Политика «восстановления былой силы», преследуемая Владимиром Путиным, по сути, вступает в период, когда в России набирают силу антиамериканские настроения. В 1991 году, когда с исторической сцены исчез Советский Союз, просвещенное и молодое поколение россиян того времени симпатизировало США. Однако новое поколение, возникшее за прошедшие с тех пор 20 лет, в значительной мере выступает против Америки. Поэтому представители некоммерческих организаций американского происхождения в России удостаиваются ярлыка «агенты США». Проявляя особую настойчивость в этом вопросе, Путин и его команда считают, что необходим «подконтрольный диалог гражданского общества» с Америкой. В то же время инцидент со Сноуденом обнаружил новую ситуацию, в которой гражданин США рассматривается в России не как агент, а как патриот.

    Как президент, проводящий идеалистическую и реалистическую политику, Барак Обама сегодня предпочитает словесную дуэль с Россией. Очевидно, желание унизить Путина через создание образа «заскучавшего школьника» вызвало обратный эффект. Перепалка Обамы и Путина также будет иметь военное и политическое измерения, и Россия пожелает войти в такие регионы, как Ближний Восток или Центральная Европа, откуда США постепенно отступают. Так сегодня выглядят международные силовые балансы.

    Насколько сбиты с толку США, настолько же точна Россия. Россия стремится снова стать великой державой и убедить мир принять ее новую идентичность. Действительно, ожидать другую форму поведения от страны, обладающей таким богатством природных ресурсов, было бы бессмысленно. Конфликт Обама - Путин только начинает разгораться. Теперь настал черед Путина. ..."

    Мы приближаемся к новой холодной войне? | ИноСМИ - Все, что достойно перевода



    Deborski likes this.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    All I know is that every day I hear anti-Russian and anti-American sentiments and it makes me sad to see us sinking back into another cold war. It feels like the last one never really ended, to be honest.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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    Подающий надежды оратор
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexsms View Post
    i see, i've opened the Pew poll in pdf. It's 'trust in Russia'. I thought it was a linguistic question. I understand it as "доверие к России".
    In this case "trust in God" is "доверие к Богу". But it wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is that people may not trust their neighbors, spouses, parents, children and so on leaving aside such big things like foreign countries. It's not a surprise to know that the trust level is low. What surprises me is that the question of trust has been brought up as such. Trust implies expectations.

    If I had a chance to ask those people who say that they don't have or have trust in Russia, I would ask them about their expectations and hopes set by them on Russia. And the key question is: How come you have some expectations about Russia as this is what defines trusting. We trust someone when our expectations are met. I don't think that USA or Russia (or any other country) tries to please someone else except oneself. So, why trust?
    Last edited by shnuddy; September 18th, 2013 at 04:13 PM. Reason: correction

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnuddy View Post
    In this case "trust in God" is "доверие к Богу". But it wasn't the point I was trying to make. The point is that people may not trust their neighbors, spouses, parents, children and so on leaving aside such big things like foreign countries. It's not a surprise to know that the trust level is low. What surprises me is that the question of trust has been brought up as such. Trust implies expectations.

    If I had a chance to ask those people who say that they don't have or have trust in Russia, I would ask them about their expectations and hopes set by them on Russia. And the key question is: How come you have some expectations about Russia as this is what defines trusting. We trust someone when our expectations are met. I don't think that USA or Russia (or any other country) tries to please someone else except oneself. So, why trust?
    Let's not make it so complicated, please. We do not want to bury this topic in semantics, do we?
    I am upset about deteriorating relationship between our two countries. Nobody would benefit from it, except Syria perhaps.
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    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrBaldhead View Post
    The Motherland was in peril and our ancestors arose to save it.
    Yep. It sounds quite respectable in patriotic rhetorics. But did you personally palyed a hero of 1612 in your childhood? Were you so inspired about that symbol of national unity? Will your children be?

    That's what I call artificial.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Старший оракул
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    Quote Originally Posted by shnuddy View Post
    And the key question is: How come you have some expectations about Russia as this is what defines trusting. We trust someone when our expectations are met. I don't think that USA or Russia (or any other country) tries to please someone else except oneself. So, why trust?
    There is an easy (I am not saying necessarily a true) answer.
    If you believe it is in the best interest of any country to follow the USA lead, why wouldn't you trust them doing exactly that?

    Speaking of Russians, I think it is safe to say that the USA acts more or less like most Russians expect it to.

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    RIA Novosti is a Government-funded/operated mouth piece. When the opportunity presents itself, that source will capitalize on 'polls' and other stories.

    RIA Novosti - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Svetlana Mironyuk is editor-in-chief of the RIA Novosti news agency and also a member of the World Economic Forum which include such impressive members Nicolas Sarkozy, Angela Merkel, Gordon Brown, David Cameron and Dmitry Medvedev to name some but not all. Yep, these are all trustworthy and honest not to mention ethical people of positions of some power and control.

    I'm sure there will be another "Cold War" with the U.S. being bankrupt to the tune of some 17 trillion dollars and the rich neo-Soviet Russia with Putin at the helm. Russia is not doing that well economically with Mr. Pootin driving the ship so if he decides to try to do USSR #2, the country is posed to collapse yet again. Russians that care to investigate can see that the country is not doing all that great so cannot afford another Cold War build-up.

    The article just looks to exaggerate and fear monger so that citizens may accept or even support more security and military spending.
    maxmixiv likes this.

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    As Benjamin Disraeli or Mark Twain or possibly someone else said: Существуют три вида лжи: ложь, наглая ложь и статистика.

    And it's always worth remembering that the phrasing of questions in a poll can influence the answers. And, too, you should remember that in polls like this, the wording of the question is standardized and it's often impossible for the participant to give a more nuanced or qualified answer. Instead, it's like this:

    QUESTIONER: "I tend to trust Russia less than I did 10 years ago." Do you strongly disagree, slightly disagree, slightly agree, strongly agree, or have no opinion?

    PARTICIPANT: Well, gosh, it depends! Are you asking me whether I trust the Russian people, or whether I trust Putin? And are we talking about Russia's relationship with NATO, or Russian oil policy?

    QUESTIONER: [repeating the question with almost identical wording] Do you strongly disagree with, slightly disagree with, slightly agree with, strongly agree with, or have no opinion about the statement "I tend to trust Russia less than I did 10 years ago"?

    PARTICIPANT: Sheesh! Put me down for "slightly agree," I guess...

    The "Pew Center" is as well-respected as any other polling organization, but that doesn't mean their surveys are completely free of accidental bias.
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  20. #20
    Властелин Deborski's Avatar
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    Throbert: As Benjamin Disraeli or Mark Twain or possibly someone else said: Существуют три вида лжи: ложь, наглая ложь и статистика.

    It was Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics." As a journalist, one of my favorite quotes. And I agree with what you say about polls being extremely subjective. To be honest, I don't put a lot of stock in them these days because they are usually twisted to support whatever agenda they are used for.

    But I have been hearing the kinds of comments from both Russians and Americans (not so much on this forum, but in other places) that I haven't heard since the 1980's and the last years of the Cold War. So I think there is most definitely a growing negativity and distrust between our countries, regardless of what the polls say.
    Вот потому, что вы говорите то, что не думаете, и думаете то, что не думаете, вот в клетках и сидите. И вообще, весь этот горький катаклизм, который я здесь наблюдаю, и Владимир Николаевич тоже…

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