Thread: Cold War between US and Russia (again)?

As Benjamin Disraeli or Mark Twain or possibly someone else said: Существуют три вида лжи: ложь, наглая ложь и статистика.

And it's always worth remembering that the phrasing of questions in a poll can influence the answers. And, too, you should remember that in polls like this, the wording of the question is standardized and it's often impossible for the participant to give a more nuanced or qualified answer. Instead, it's like this:

QUESTIONER: "I tend to trust Russia less than I did 10 years ago." Do you strongly disagree, slightly disagree, slightly agree, strongly agree, or have no opinion?

PARTICIPANT: Well, gosh, it depends! Are you asking me whether I trust the Russian people, or whether I trust Putin? And are we talking about Russia's relationship with NATO, or Russian oil policy?

QUESTIONER: [repeating the question with almost identical wording] Do you strongly disagree with, slightly disagree with, slightly agree with, strongly agree with, or have no opinion about the statement "I tend to trust Russia less than I did 10 years ago"?

PARTICIPANT: Sheesh! Put me down for "slightly agree," I guess...

The "Pew Center" is as well-respected as any other polling organization, but that doesn't mean their surveys are completely free of accidental bias.

Throbert: As Benjamin Disraeli or Mark Twain or possibly someone else said: Существуют три вида лжи: ложь, наглая ложь и статистика.

It was Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, damn lies, and statistics." As a journalist, one of my favorite quotes. And I agree with what you say about polls being extremely subjective. To be honest, I don't put a lot of stock in them these days because they are usually twisted to support whatever agenda they are used for.

But I have been hearing the kinds of comments from both Russians and Americans (not so much on this forum, but in other places) that I haven't heard since the 1980's and the last years of the Cold War. So I think there is most definitely a growing negativity and distrust between our countries, regardless of what the polls say.

Всероссийский референдум 25.04.93. Агитматериалы: Основной плакат Дем

D.Bykov, Russian poet:

На Запад мы обращены,
Хотя они ничем не краше,
Но просто ихние штаны
Нам больше нравятся, чем наши.

Originally Posted by alexsms

Но просто ихние штаны
Нам больше нравятся, чем наши.

Общество, где нет цветовой дифференциации штанов, не имеет цели.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

As Benjamin Disraeli or Mark Twain or possibly someone else said: Существуют три вида лжи: ложь, наглая ложь и статистика.

And it's always worth remembering that the phrasing of questions in a poll can influence the answers. And, too, you should remember that in polls like this, the wording of the question is standardized and it's often impossible for the participant to give a more nuanced or qualified answer. Instead, it's like this:

QUESTIONER: "I tend to trust Russia less than I did 10 years ago." Do you strongly disagree, slightly disagree, slightly agree, strongly agree, or have no opinion?

PARTICIPANT: Well, gosh, it depends! Are you asking me whether I trust the Russian people, or whether I trust Putin? And are we talking about Russia's relationship with NATO, or Russian oil policy?

QUESTIONER: [repeating the question with almost identical wording] Do you strongly disagree with, slightly disagree with, slightly agree with, strongly agree with, or have no opinion about the statement "I tend to trust Russia less than I did 10 years ago"?

PARTICIPANT: Sheesh! Put me down for "slightly agree," I guess...

The "Pew Center" is as well-respected as any other polling organization, but that doesn't mean their surveys are completely free of accidental bias.

Yeah, I think polls are like tests. And it would be so easy to just make stuff up for the answers. Some woman called a few days ago and she was doing a survey. I just said "Huh?" and she startied asking questions so I tossed the phone on a table and screamed "Hey! Grab the phone, I gotta bounce!". Then I left. Dunno if anybody picked up on it but hey, no way I was gonna talk to some woman I don't even know.

And I don't get this thing about trust. How can anyone trust or not trust people that don't even live in their neighborhood? And trust them to do what? Well, I trust people to do whatever they decide to do but that's it. I mean, why does anybody need a cold war anyway? Are they scared Russia or America might jump up and scream "Boo!"? LOL! Well, those people in Krasnodar Krai didn't need any cold war to tell them what to accept and what to toss or how to show that lame Bloodhound band that they were Not impressed.
A lot of Americans diss Russians and a lot of Russians probably diss Americans too. But it's a really wrong attitude for people who haven't even met each other yet. I've had some Russian friends in real-life and so far, they've all been really cool.

If only everyone could get along, but such is man I guess.

И.Иртеньев.
"Монолог на выдохе":

Нет, мы империя добра!
А не империя мы зла,
Как мы тут слышали вчера
От одного тут мы козла.
Не будем называть страну,
Главой которой был козел,
Мечтавший развязать войну,
От наших городов и сел
Чтоб не осталось и следа,
Но мы ему сказали: „Нет!“
И он был вынужден тогда,
Чтоб свой спасти авторитет
Козлиный, с нами заключить
Один известный договор,
Который должен исключить
Саму возможность всякий спор
Решать насильственным путем,
А нам такой не нужен путь,
Поскольку к миру мы идем,
А если вдруг когда-нибудь
Другой козел захочет вдруг
С пути нас этого свернуть,
Ему мы скажем: „Знаешь, друг,
Вали, откудова пришел!“,
И он отвалит — тот козел.

1982

Speaking of Cold War, I just read something that made me really sad. An article about how a Russian naval ship shadowed a military exercise on the Baltic Sea "Such behaviour from Russia has not been seen since the Cold war" wrote the paper. The ship stayed on international waters, but was relatively close to an island in the Baltic Sea which is Swedish. Whatever. It's totally understandable that Russia uses this sea, since it's got coast line against it. It belongs to everybody with a coast there.

But what was so disturbing was that the exercise was a NATO exercise that Sweden was "hosting". WTF?! Sweden is not in NATO and neither is any of the countries facing that part of the Baltic Sea. It was always a source of pride, how peace was maintained on that Sea WITHOUT foreign involvement. Although things were tense, there was no fighting there during the War, and ferries continued to run across the East-West divide, in the Cold War. This Sea unites people and it's a sea of peaceful relations where everybody had previous good connections with eachother.

I am totally disgusted that there was a NATO exercise there. Who wanted that? Why would that be needed when there are no NATO member states nearby! It's only done to annoy Russia for goodness sake, and what is the point!?

I can't think of a single person I know, including career military people who would like tensions back the way it was during the Cold War. I am certainly not blaming the Russian ship for wanting to check out what was going on.

NATO has no business there and it is certainly not needed. Sweden, Russia, Finland, Baltic States or anyone else with a coast can do naval exercises. But no NATO, no thanks! I grew up on the shores of this sea and the thought of tensions coming back is really sad and disturbing. Yankees go home!

It's not good that so many European countries have become reliant on American protection when the U.S. is dominated and controlled by a select few powerful organizations that are more interested in their own profiteering from military action.

Not to mention the enslavement of Europeans by the EU. When things worsen economically, more people will probably wake up but that's not a very good scenario or method.

This discussion made me think of this song...

Muse - United States Of Eurasia


You and me are the same
We don't know or care who's to blame
But we know that whoever holds the reigns
Nothing will change
Our cause has gone insane

And these wars they can't be won
And these wars they can't be won
And do you want them to go on and on and on?
Why split these states
When there can be only one

And must we do as we're told?
Must we do as we're told?

You and me fall in line
To be punished for unproven crimes
And we know that there's no one we can trust
Our ancient heroes
They are turning to dust

And these wars they can't be won
Does anyone know or care how they begun?
They just promise to go on and on and on
But soon we will see
There can be only one

United States
United States of
Eurasia! Sia! Sia! Sia!
Eurasia! Sia! Sia! Sia!
Eurasia! Sia! Sia! Sia!

The comments section at the Pravda.ru site is blocked and some parts of the site are "Forbidden". I was checking out the McCain op-ed when I discovered that. Does anyone know if that's a technical issue at Pravda.ru? I can't find a way to find out.

UhOhXplode, to answer your question, I am not able to access comments on that article either. Could be that their server is just busy with too many replies.

Here is Senator John McCain's editorial in Pravda.ru:

Senator John McCain: Russians deserve better than Putin - English pravda.ru

To me, it sounds like the kind of Cold War rhetoric which should have ended 20 years ago.

Russian reaction so far is indignant and scathing... mirroring American reaction to Putin's recent op-ed in the New York Times.

The McCain-Putin Chapter of Mice and Men - English pravda.ru

This article takes special issue with McCain's comments about "repression" in Russia and goes into a defensive rant about Russia's recent "gay propaganda" laws, but it should be noted here that McCain, a right-wing republican, is not exactly a champion of gay rights in the US.


Even American commentators are critical of McCain's rhetorical homage to Reagan-style relations with Russia...

John McCain’s self-defeating Pravda op-ed can only help Putin

The funniest (and saddest) thing about McCain's little rant is that he THOUGHT he was publishing it in the Soviet-era Pravda (which no longer exists). This is how outdated his thinking really is! The man needs a new watch!

McCain Misfires at Putin in Wrong Pravda - Bloomberg

In the article, McCain seems to be speaking to the long-gone audience of the original Pravda. After stating he is "more pro-Russian than the regime that misrules you today," he affirms: "A Russian citizen could not publish a testament like the one I just offered." The column read as though McCain was unaware of the existence of Russia's highly vocal liberal press, or indeed of the not-so-subtle difference between Putin's authoritarian regime and totalitarian Soviet Communism.

"The very fact of publication proves that everything McCain wrote is a lie," Gorshenin told Izvestia. "If the entire press were controlled from the Kremlin, how could a piece like that appear on a website everyone calls pro-Kremlin?"

If McCain hoped that his article would make a splash in Russia comparable to the one Putin's article made in the U.S., he must have been disappointed. Pravda.ru's traffic was no greater than average. The Russian president may be an incorrigible dictator, but his publicists appear to have a better understanding of modern-day America than McCain does of Russia.

Granted, it's easier for Putin: There's only one New York Times.

@ Deborski.
Lmao! Yeah, I read the Pravda/Pravda.ru article too. McCain looks old enough to be a great great grandad so maybe Altzheimers? LOL! And he wants to run for President?
I can understand people having issues about some things in Russia (like the gay-propaganda law) or some things in the U.S. (like the NDAA law) but zOOmg! McCain was talking like the Russian people should just toss their country and elect him for President of Russia! :SERIOUS FACEPALM: I wonder if he wants to run for President of Mexico too. Maybe President of the whole world!
It's way too embarrassing to even think about...
Congress seriously needs to hire a specialist that can help McCain with his mental challenges. It would be epic Facepalm if he walked into Congress someday playing with Legos. =/

I think Putin should tell McCain:

TEAR DOWN THAT MEXICAN WALL!

Originally Posted by Deborski

I think Putin should tell McCain:

TEAR DOWN THAT MEXICAN WALL!

Cool! We could even get a Mexican Congressman to replace him. I mean, most Mexicans probably aren't as out of the loop as McCain anyway, so it would be a vast improvement!
Either the White House owes the Russian and American citizens an apology for that weird speech OR somebody needs to make a new comic strip. It could could be all about an obnoxious nutjob (called McCain ) that lives in a Russian/American community (but thinks he's living in North Korea) that's trying to run for King (he doesn't know what democracy is yet) of the world and just confuses and annoys everybody!
Oh, and a frustrated mental hospital aide that can't keep McCain locked up!

How Putin's Op-Ed Got Watered Down | Opinion | The Moscow Times

Scott

Originally Posted by fortheether

How Putin's Op-Ed Got Watered Down | Opinion | The Moscow Times

Scott

I've noticed that too. Yet, I thought it was reasonable to remove the sentence about Boston to avoid touching the fresh wound and not upset American readers.