Thread: About Cold War and more

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Well, how does that old song go again? Oh, yeah:

"Союз нерушимый республик свободных.
Сплотила навеки Великая Русь"

(I.e., While the угнетающая верхушка [oppressive elite leadership] of the Soviet Union was -- from the US point of view -- the major threat, it was them goddamn rooskies who built the USSR in the first place, as they brag about in their own anthem!)

Советский Союз представлял собой угрозу американскому господству в мире, а не самой Америке. Разница в пропаганде очевидна.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Well, how does that old song go again? Oh, yeah:

"Союз нерушимый республик свободных.
Сплотила навеки Великая Русь"

(I.e., While the угнетающая верхушка [oppressive elite leadership] of the Soviet Union was -- from the US point of view -- the major threat, it was them goddamn rooskies who built the USSR in the first place, as they brag about in their own anthem!)

off: раз не затирают "goddamn rooskies", то и я позволю себе побесчинствовать. =)

Неужели пиндосы учили определять кто есть клятый москаль, а кто бедный хохол и бульбаш? =)



Что при СССР, что сейчас: "Наташа, заткнись! Выпьем водки!" =)

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I can't remember hearing about anything as extreme as American "home-made" bomb shelters, and later, in the 80s the atmosphere was very much relaxed, despite occasional talk about WWIII or American nuclear threat. We studied what we should do during the nuclear strike at school, but no one took it very seriously. The possibility of actual nuclear war seemed very small.

Perhaps it was part of a propaganda campaign to scare Americans by suggesting that it would be wise build their own bomb shelters. There are thosands of American TV shows from that era with "evil Russians" plotting something nasty against nice Americans. I don't think there was equivalent bad portraying of Americans on Soviet TV.

I remember the first time I saw such a film and was able to follow the plot. I was totally shocked at the prejudiced, ill informed and one dimensional portrait of Russians - I regularly saw Russian ferry passengers at my local metro stop, and had been in the USSR, so it was clear to me that the film was blatantly untrue in what it conveyed.

But how would an American living in the midwest watching the same filem have known?

But now it is almost as if the propaganda has become the official truth!

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I can't remember hearing about anything as extreme as American "home-made" bomb shelters, and later, in the 80s the atmosphere was very much relaxed, despite occasional talk about WWIII or American nuclear threat. We studied what we should do during the nuclear strike at school, but no one took it very seriously. The possibility of actual nuclear war seemed very small.

Согласен. Истерии у нас не было. Хотя я школьником иногда задумывался о том, что "прилететь может". Думаю, что отсуствие истерии у нас и присутствием её у них объясняется тем, что у них демократия, и распределение средств бюджета на военные нужды зависит от избранников народа, которые зависят от настроения этого самого народа. А у нас это зависело от верхушки. Поэтому пугать население нашим правителям не было нужды.

I think it was very difficult to say who had almost started the WWIII. The Cuban Missile Crisis is as controversial today as it was back then. Let us seat ourselves in a high office of the military headquarters and observe the situation from each side.

From the SU side, the main danger had not been the missiles which were, at the time, of limited reliability and cargo capabilities, but mainly from the plane bombers. Their location was primarily in Europe, but there also were mobile units launched from the aircraft carriers. Very dangerous situation.

From the US side, the danger was greatly mitigated by the distance. The plan bombers had to come all the way over the Arctic and, subsequently, Canada giving plenty of chances for the US's and Canadian plane fighters to massive and non-stop attacks. There were challenges of fuel limitations - the aircraft is very vulnerable during the aerial refueling because it needs to stay still becoming an easier prey for the fighters, which primary job is not really fighting with the enemy fighters, but actually not to let the bombers drop their bombs to their targets.

So, at the time the US was much more capable of starting the nuclear WWIII, without much worry of nuclear retaliation from the USSR, but it hadn't.

And here's why. The WWIII could only start with a very high degree of assurance that the nuclear weapons will not be used at all or will be used in a very limited quantities. Obviously, due to the ecological consequences. At the time, neither the US, nor the SU were capable of neutralizing the nuclear capabilities of each other, so the WWIII could not start. Then, both side's military minds worked hard to overcome the challenge, and both sides realized those approaches could work. The only reliable way to defend itself from those tactics was the diversification and the proliferation of the nuclear weapons. Until the point at which the maintenance had become so expensive for both sides that they agreed to the so-called mutual disarmament. Oh, how much joy had it caused! Wow! The superpowers are looking for the ways to make peace! All the peace movements... the dreams... What had happened in reality is that both superpowers had replaced the outdated warheads with the more modern equipment which could fit better with the more modern missiles and being less vulnerable. But, at the same time the strategy and tactics of the rest of the military had become tuned to destroying the nuclear capabilities of the enemy. By the late 70s and early 80s it had become apparent that the USSR is a way ahead in that game and can start the WWIII any time it wants and the US can do nothing except for total destruction. The only real thing which hold that war back was the leadership weakness - Brezhnev and his company were very old and were incapable of such energetic undertaking. As soon as Brezhnev died in 1982, newly elected leader Yuri Andropov (who was one of the three leaders which actually governed the country in the later years of Brezhnev's life) had decided that the time has come. It was now or never for many reasons. The gradual preparation of the country to war had begun. The US had gradually realized what had happened, but it was basically too late. But, they couldn't do just nothing. So, about a half-year later the US had launched the Strategic Defense Initiative, which allegedly could protect at least somehow against the state-of-the-art splitting warheads. Of course, it could take years until it would work, but the Soviet leadership had realized they don't have that much time either. So, the internal opposition to Andropov had realized the whole war-playing was for real. It wasn't about playing the who's the boss anymore, if the entire plan goes wrong, there could be total destruction. And they chickened. Not long afterwards (just a few months later), previously active Andropov suddenly got so sick that the last time he had acted as a Secretary General was about a half-year later after the SDI was announced. What a strange coincidence... Anyway, after the last of the Mohicans had died, a young leader named Gorbachev took over the leadership of the party. And the Cold War had effectively been finished.

Hey Chaika and Deborski... you out there? I believe the two of you would have some valuable insight and could add to this discussion!

I was growing up (70's-80's), waiting for nuclear strike every day, and often saw nightmares. They said, that our city is among primary targets, and will be attacked with not less than 10 bombs. I really don't understand, how any one could stay indifferent with the news that was in mass media those days.

Cannot say much about 1950's, but I saw the articles on the Internet(might be fake), that the US had been elaborating plans to attack the USSR since very beginning, when it was safe (USSR had not the bomb yet).
In my opinion, we were just lucky, that not everyone in our world only dreams to push the button, there is some room for common sense too.
And Andropov was not absolutely mad, and Brezhnev even was not thinking about first strike, I think. But personally I was expecting first strike from the USA, because was sure that they are supreme Evil on the Earth (our propaganda was quite effective inside USSR, Hanna! Well it worked on me...)

It would be nice, if all military bases disappear from the ground, in whole world, and all bombs be destroyed, but process goes in opposite direction I'm afraid.

наши учили ненавидеть американскую угнетающую верхушку, а американцы учили ненавидеть вообще русских.

Вот поэтому мы и проиграли Холодную войну. Не поэтому, конечно. Но пропаганду надо было вести типа нынешней. Сейчас негативное отношение к Америке гораздо сильнее, чем тогда.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Вот поэтому мы и проиграли Холодную войну. Не поэтому, конечно. Но пропаганду надо было вести типа нынешней. Сейчас негативное отношение к Америке гораздо сильнее, чем тогда.

One who was born to hate everything will always come up with an excuse to even hate their own reflection in a mirror.

Okay, so tomorrow is the deadline for the assignment... this thread of course can go on and on, but any last input for the assignment today would be great. Thanks.


BappaBa, thank you so much for posting those graphics. While I can't read them, I believe I get the basic understanding of them. Do you by any chance have a date from when they are from?



maxmixi, where did you grow up that it effect you so much? I know living so close to Washington, D.C. everything was different for me as well. When I was young I was sitting in a tree and there was this BOOM and the tree shook. I thought a bomb went off in DC. It turned out that a house exploded in the next "town" over yet we felt it. There was nothing left of the house and thankfully no one was in the house at the time. I believe it was a gas build up. And when we had the earthquake here last year, as we NEVER have them here, the very first thought the girls and I had, was a bomb.

It is interesting that when I was in elementary school they used to have the emergency sirens go off I think once a month to test them. They had it in the school yard. Now they don't do that any more. Does anyone else remember those or am I the only person old enough?

My dad is old enough that when I asked him about all of this, he remembers the duck and cover under his desk from WW2, having to sit in lines on each side of the hallway, and his dad was actually an air raid warden.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

[B]
It is interesting that when I was in elementary school they used to have the emergency sirens go off I think once a month to test them. They had it in the school yard. Now they don't do that any more. Does anyone else remember those or am I the only person old enough?

It was the same in USSR except the sirens have been going off for the whole city not just school

Originally Posted by rockzmom

BappaBa, thank you so much for posting those graphics. While I can't read them, I believe I get the basic understanding of them. Do you by any chance have a date from when they are from?

I believe they are from early 80's, because of the Space Shuttle.

Originally Posted by BappaBa

I believe they are from early 80's, because of the Space Shuttle.

Thanks. I forwarded the second one to her teacher and I just got a text from my daughter that he is showing it to them in class right now!! You see how much you impact the lives of American school children??!!

About the Space Shuttle, I was talking with my dad about that one. Is the picture suggesting that you could launch a weapon from the Space Shuttle? If so, that is something that neither of us thought about before.

My daughter's teacher showed them this video!!

Duck And Cover (1951) Bert The Turtle Civil Defense Film

rockzmom, I believe, that it was my individual perception, not much related to my location. My city is Omsk, and I was growing sure, that nothing bad could happen ever, because we are so distant and earthquakes are not possible. Then I learned, that bombs can be delivered in half-hour. I got nervous since then
We had many military industries in the USSR times, and big refinery. Military works all crippled after USSR's demise, but refinery was captured by Abramovich and it is still profitable and interesting for Pentagon. Look please (there is come text in English at the end):
ﾑﾘﾀ ??? ?蒟?? ??韃 ? ﾎ?

Well, it went both sides. Militarisation of space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Soviet Union was also researching innovative ways of gaining space supremacy. Two of their most notable efforts were the Fractional Orbital Bombardment System (FOBS) and Polyus orbital weapons system."

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, it went both sides. Militarisation of space - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Soviet Union was also researching innovative ways of gaining space supremacy. Two of their most notable efforts were the Fractional Orbital Bombardment System (FOBS) and Polyus orbital weapons system."

Shut the front door!

"orbital nuclear explosion were researched with varying levels of success."

The moon... for real?

"In the late 1950s United States Air Force considered dropping an atomic bomb on the Moon to display U.S. superiority to the Soviet Union and the rest of the world (Project A119). "

Oh my, I love how this is worded. I makes it sound as if the SU is now a pile of ashes. Like the entire country was Lot's wife and blinked and turned into a into a column of salt or something.

In 1991 the Soviet Union disintegrated.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Shut the front door!
"orbital nuclear explosion were researched with varying levels of success."

That's right. I think that was part of the project Excalibur Project Excalibur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The main idea was to detonate a nuclear bomb on the orbit and let it power a series of x-ray lasers in various directions to destroy the ballistic missiles or splitting nuclear warheads.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Document E:

Source: U.S. News and World Report, December 1957

My parents are retired out in Arizona, and my dad works as a volunteer tour guide at the Titan II Missile Museum near Tucson. (The only Titan II silo still in existence -- though the missile now has no warheads, rocket fuel, or engines, of course! -- since the other 53 sites were dynamited after being decommissioned in the late '80s.)

Anyway, the Titan II missiles and the underground silos that housed them were both designed to deal with that "35 minute" problem described in the graphic. For instance, the missiles used a special fuel mixture that did not have to be stored in huge refrigeration units (like liquid oxygen) and pumped into the rocket's fuel tanks at the last minute -- so the missiles were completely fueled at all times, and could launch in just under 1 minute.

And the silos were massively engineered and theoretically capable of surviving a "nearby" detonation by a Soviet first strike -- not only were there steel doors and concrete walls more than a meter thick, but absolutely everything inside the silo was mounted on gigantic shock-absorption springs to protect electronic equipment from shockwaves. (Thus, even if a multi-megaton Soviet missile had destroyed the nearby city of Tucson, the silo that's now the Museum should have been able -- at least in theory -- to launch a retaliatory strike.)

Thus, the Titan II program was an attempt to preserve the US Govt's official "no first strike" policy, even in an age where Soviet missiles could reach the US in about half an hour. (Note that the magazine article posted by rockzmom is from 1957, and the Titan II silos were completed and activated by around 1963.)

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Thus, the Titan II program was an attempt to preserve the US Govt's official "no first strike" policy, even in an age where Soviet missiles could reach the US in about half an hour.

Every nuclear country claims the same thing

But the actual idea is an ability to respond on nuclear bombing and that' basically the main deterrent force