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Thread: About Cold War and more

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    There was apparently an incident where the USA almost fired off the nukes because a flock of birds were flying from Siberia towards Alaska and appeared on the radar like missiles!
    It was a little bit more dramatic in USSR one day
    Stanislav Petrov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    An U.S. Air Force Convair F-106A Delta Dart (s/n 57-2494) of the 102nd Fighter Interceptor Wing of the Massachusetts Air National Guard based at Otis Air Force Base, Massachusetts (USA), intercepting a Soviet Tu-95 Bear D bomber aircraft off Cape Cod on 15 April 1982.

    Used to see this in the local newspaper every year or so. Soviet Bears would fly to Cuba and the local Air National Guard would go out and say "Hi guys!".

    Note the "Cape Cod" on the fighter's fuel tank.
    I'm easily amused late at night...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    Well, how does that old song go again? Oh, yeah:

    "Союз нерушимый республик свободных.
    Сплотила навеки Великая Русь"

    (I.e., While the угнетающая верхушка [oppressive elite leadership] of the Soviet Union was -- from the US point of view -- the major threat, it was them goddamn rooskies who built the USSR in the first place, as they brag about in their own anthem!)
    off: раз не затирают "goddamn rooskies", то и я позволю себе побесчинствовать. =)

    Неужели пиндосы учили определять кто есть клятый москаль, а кто бедный хохол и бульбаш? =)



    Что при СССР, что сейчас: "Наташа, заткнись! Выпьем водки!" =)


  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BappaBa View Post

    Неужели пиндосы учили определять кто есть клятый москаль, а кто бедный хохол и бульбаш? =)


    Who can tell Rooskies apart from Ukies? You people all look the same, just like Chinks and Japs and Gooks... of course, the problem may be that слишком много телевизора вредно глазам, и поэтому у нас пиндосов слабое зреное.

    But seriously, cheers to BarraBa for responding with good humor on this complex topic. (And thanks for introducing me to the word бульбаш, which I had to look up.)

    Of course, it wasn't my intention to defend prejudice (even in wartime) or to deny that there was hateful Russophobia in the US during the Cold War.

    But the point I wished to make with my reference to "Великая Русь" in the Soviet anthem was that, если бы столица СССР была не Москвой, а Бишкеком, то Сильвестр Сталлон в "Rocky IV" дрался бы не с блондином-славянином, a с "чёрным" киргизом-тюрком. That is, the Russophobia was based on the actual fact that ethnic Russians had dominated the Soviet Union. (And Russia had, of course, been an imperial power even before the Soviet revolution.)

    At the same time, however, I think that Hanna greatly exaggerated the historic reality when she wrote:

    There are thousands of American TV shows from that era with "evil Russians" plotting something nasty against nice Americans.
    There was definitely "Soviet-phobia", and sometimes the "Soviet-phobia" became simple "Russophobia", for the reason I explained above. But, in my opinion, the caricature of "evil Soviets" was much less widespread in American popular media than Hanna implies; for there's a lot more to US cinema than Rocky IV and Red Dawn!

    I would argue, instead, that US pop-culture (i.e., films and TV) typically recognized at least three categories of "Soviet people":

    1. The truly good and intelligent ones -- who, of course, were desperate to defect to the West!
    2. Those who were good at heart, yet remained blindly loyal to the inherently bad Soviet system because they'd been "brainwashed".
    3. The evil ones who fanatically believed in the All-Powerful Soviet State and were happy to kill anyone who got in their way.


    Absent from this scheme, of course, are noble-hearted and rational Soviet citizens who saw their country as "flawed but fixable" (like the US in slave-owning days) who believed that the Soviet sphere was truly worth defending as a counterweight to the US, and who envisioned two peacefully competitive spheres of influence.

    Actually, this type (good-hearted and without delusions about Soviet abuses of power) wasn't totally unrepresented -- especially in science fiction, one sometimes found good and wise Soviet scientists or even KGB agents who teamed up with good and wise Americans for the common benefit of humanity, and each side learns to admit the flaws/limits/evils of his own system, etc. However, this was relatively rare, and more often, the American heroes would have to rescue the "heroic pro-American Soviets" and/or the "good but naive and helpless Soviets" from the "evil Communist fanatics".

    I don't think there was equivalent bad portraying of Americans on Soviet TV.
    Of course not! Soviet TV fully captured both the negative side of America -- such as unemployed workers and oppressed Negroes being sprayed with fire hoses -- and the positive side -- such as billionaire industrialists with yachts, limousines, and private jets. Fair and balanced, just like FoxNews.
    Last edited by Throbert McGee; March 27th, 2012 at 12:43 AM. Reason: Edited to add: I had to write this post in two parts because my laptop crashed...
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    That is, the "Russophobia" was based on the actual fact that ethnic Russians had dominated the Soviet Union. (And Russia had, of course, been an imperial power even before the Soviet revolution.)
    Hmm.. I think it's a bit of a (Western?) stereotype. The only way Russians 100% dominated the Soviet Union was an obligatory knowledge of Russian, since it was a state language. Generally Russians did not have any special privileges based on their ethnicity, no they were sole leaders in republican governments, which consisted largely of locals.
    I've heard a theory that one of the reasons of such a swift demise of the USSR was exactly that - too much of ethnic and territorial integrity was allowed, so the transition from a 'Soviet republic' to an independent state was relatively easy: Soviet republics retained their "ethnic" borders, their national languages (which were also mandatory subjects at schools from grade 2 to grade 10), etc.

    I'd like to add that "Soviet Russia" was usually a foreign concept to native "Soviets", because very few of them saw the Soviet Union as Russia - "Russia" was almost exclusively associated with Russian Empire, i.e. country before 1917.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post
    Last edited by Throbert McGee; Today at 07:43 PM. Reason: Edited to add: I had to write this post in two parts because my laptop crashed...
    CIA is watching you

  7. #47
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    The Soviet Union never threatened the US. Its people did not have negative feelings towards America and Americans (there was a neg. feeling during and after the war because were thought to do nothing and use the Soviet Union to achieve the victory). That was the biggest lie propagated by the US. The history showed that even Soviet leaders were not antiamericanists.

  8. #48
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    If Nulle is the biggest Latvian nationalist on the forum (not much competition) then I think Marcus is the biggest Russian nationalist on the forum!!

    PS - what happened to the smiley with the red flag? That would have been more appropriate....

    Anyway, I think everybody here is doing a great job of representing Russia to people from other countries, and also explaining the USSR and the Cold War from your perspective.

    It's interesting to hear that you don't see Russia as being dominating in the USSR. Most other people thought so.
    What about stars in the USSR ice hockey team, were they mostly Russian or other nationalities?
    I remember from this time that people said, "blah, blah, blah Russians...." and teachers said "don't say Russians, say Soviets". It never really caught on though!

    I have no idea what it was like with possible Russian domination of the USSR, and no opinion on it -- but I remember often seeing programs on TV with people with really elegant national costumes from different parts of the USSR - I could be wrong, but it seemed to me that the different nationalities were something that was celebrated in the USSR, in culture at least.
    Plus, several of the Soviet leaders were from other Soviet republics than Russia, as far as I am aware. I guess that wouldn't have been the case if Russia totally dominated.

    One thing that seems strange though, is that USSR apparently marked in people's passport who was Jewish (why??!) and that Jews were sometimes discriminated against (?) to the extent that many got fed up and tried to emigrate. But on the other hand... tons of really famous people from the Soviet era were Jewish, so it can't have been extreme. Don't know what the truth about this is - does anyone have a view on it?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    If Nulle is the biggest Latvian nationalist on the forum (not much competition) then I think Marcus is the biggest Russian nationalist on the forum!!

    PS - what happened to the smiley with the red flag? That would have been more appropriate....

    Anyway, I think everybody here is doing a great job of representing Russia to people from other countries, and also explaining the USSR and the Cold War from your perspective.

    It's interesting to hear that you don't see Russia as being dominating in the USSR. Most other people thought so.
    What about stars in the USSR ice hockey team, were they mostly Russian or other nationalities?
    I remember from this time that people said, "blah, blah, blah Russians...." and teachers said "don't say Russians, say Soviets". It never really caught on though!

    I have no idea what it was like with possible Russian domination of the USSR, and no opinion on it -- but I remember often seeing programs on TV with people with really elegant national costumes from different parts of the USSR - I could be wrong, but it seemed to me that the different nationalities were something that was celebrated in the USSR, in culture at least.
    Plus, several of the Soviet leaders were from other Soviet republics than Russia, as far as I am aware. I guess that wouldn't have been the case if Russia totally dominated.

    One thing that seems strange though, is that USSR apparently marked in people's passport who was Jewish (why??!) and that Jews were sometimes discriminated against (?) to the extent that many got fed up and tried to emigrate. But on the other hand... tons of really famous people from the Soviet era were Jewish, so it can't have been extreme. Don't know what the truth about this is - does anyone have a view on it?
    Stalin was a Georgian (Svan I think in fact) and spoke with a noticible foreign accent. There were many others of course. The only real advantage of Russians was the language, the Russian language unofficially became the state language and the lingua franca.
    The ethnicity was marked anyway, now it is not. Why? I have always wondered. Jews had very high positions in the first decades of the Soviet power. But the tensions arose between them and Stalin, because of their support of Israel which appeared to be anti-Soviet despite the USSR helped it a lot.
    Many people wanted to emigrate, many Jews thought their motherland was Israel. Jews were allowed to emigrate after the war and in the 70ths. Others did not usually get this opportunity.
    Jews were never oppressed, they still occupied high positions in culture, science, but they were gradually excluded from the government, Party lidership, high army command and the special services. It is worth saying that they occupied a very large part of posts in Soviet ministries, Party, army and special services before the end of the 1930s. The Soviet Union enjoyed the support of Jews throughout the world but was called Jewish state by the white, Hitler and other enemies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    The Soviet Union never threatened the US.
    That's true, it has never threatened the US explicitly, but it had said and done enough to show it wants the US to join the Family of the Brother Nations just like any other country.

    "Со дня победы пролетарской революции в России вся история человечества наполнена непримиримой борьбой двух миров. [...] Трудящиеся массы капиталистических стран, и в первую очередь рабочий класс, все больше проникаются сознанием, что освобождения от гнета нищеты и безработицы можно добиться только идя по тому пути, который указал рабочий класс Советского Союза. [...] Ленинизм учит, что, пока существует капиталистическое окружение нашей страны, существует опасность интервенции, а следовательно, реставрации капитализма. [...] «...Ошибочно было бы думать, что сфера классовой борьбы ограничена пределами СССР. Если один конец классовой борьбы имеет свое действие в рамках СССР, то другой ее конец протягивается в пределы окружающих нас буржуазных государств. Об этом не могут не знать остатки разбитых классов. И именно потому, что они об этом знают, они будут и впредь продолжать свои отчаянные вылазки.

    Так учит нас история. Так учит нас ленинизм.

    Необходимо помнить все это и быть начеку»" (ВОЕННАЯ ЛИТЕ)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Its people did not have negative feelings towards America and Americans (there was a neg. feeling during and after the war because were thought to do nothing and use the Soviet Union to achieve the victory).
    During and after the war (I guess you mean the WWII) there was a great deal of friendship between the USSR and the US. Have you ever heard about the lend-lease that helped a lot for the Soviet Union to survive especially through the first toughest years of the war? Have you ever heard a song "На честном слове и на одном крыле" http://vilavi.ru/prot/150307/media/ut_rus.mp3 ? That was very popular in the Soviet Union by the end of the war and in the year of victory and right after the war. It is only years after the WWII ended, during the Cold War that the US was perceived as a "possible enemy" (страна вероятного противника).

    That's true there weren't too much of the anti-american feelings, but more or less anti-capitalist feelings which meant the US had to be liberated just like any other capitalist country. All capitalist countries were the target. There was no need to single out the US. If you want to kill a dangerous bull, it's not that wise to tease it, you'd rather pat it first.

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    Идеи мировой революции были отброшены Сталиным еще в 1929 г. Остальное было болтовней.
    Во время войны сами западные дипломаты и журналисты отмечали недовольство советских людей недостаточной активностью западных стран, хотя американская помощь была всякакя и дружба тоже была.
    Ненависти к капитализму в СССР не было вообще (было неприязненное отношение к спекулянтам, но не к Западу). Советские люди считали, что они живут в говне, что на Западе текут молочные реки с кисельными берегами, хватались за все западное вне зависимости от нужности и качества и считали, что все это можно устроить у нас, если ввести рыночную экономику, демократию и подчиниться Западу. Именно поэтому перестройка и распад Союза прошли так замечательно. Своим СМИ советские люди не верили, а часто верили наоборот.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Идеи мировой революции были отброшены Сталиным еще в 1929 г. Остальное было болтовней.
    Yes, Stalin said that and even documented that. But, remember the bull? Why had Stalin established the communist regimes in the Eastern Europe? Wasn't it according to the idea of shrinking the "capitalistic circle"? What was the blah-blah and what was actually happening? In your earlier post you mentioned the Cuban Crisis, but what had preceded that? Do you remember the emigration through Berlin and the subsequent Berlin Crisis? The two systems cannot co-exist. The war which would shrink/eliminate the capitalistic circle was inevitable. That was bound to happen regardless of the peaceful rhetoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Во время войны сами западные дипломаты и журналисты отмечали недовольство советских людей недостаточной активностью западных стран, хотя американская помощь была всякакя и дружба тоже была.
    Ok, so the WWII started in the 1939. The UK and France fought with Germany. During that time the soviet people weren't that active to help the western countries. Strange, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Ненависти к капитализму в СССР не было вообще (было неприязненное отношение к спекулянтам, но не к Западу). Советские люди считали, что они живут в говне, что на Западе текут молочные реки с кисельными берегами, хватались за все западное
    By the 80s, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    вне зависимости от нужности и качества
    I disagree. Women spent their entire month salary to get the Italian shoes and were wearing it for a decade. Usually, those who visited the west imported European or Japanese goods. Except for the jeans which were fake most of the time, unless being brought by the americans who visited the USSR. Those real jeans used to cost a lot as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    и считали, что все это можно устроить у нас, если ввести рыночную экономику
    Yes, many believed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    , демократию и подчиниться Западу.
    That is a political demagogy. The people wanted to learn how the West does it, hence the impression of "the western is good". That was only true in the early 90s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Именно поэтому перестройка и распад Союза прошли так замечательно.
    I think you're mixing up things here. I don't think those who started the "remodeling" have planned for the disintegration of the USSR. Also, people in general liked the idea of the USSR and disliked the nationalist sentiments of the late 80s which ultimately caused the disintegration. The whole thing was though to be more like the New Economic policy of the past, something that could revive the economics and make people more involved and interested. I'm not really sure that was a bad idea, it could work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Своим СМИ советские люди не верили, а часто верили наоборот.
    Why do you think that happened? Was there a reason, or people just went crazy altogether?

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    Wasn't it according to the idea of shrinking the "capitalistic circle"? What was the blah-blah and what was actually happening? In your earlier post you mentioned the Cuban Crisis, but what had preceded that? Do you remember the emigration through Berlin and the subsequent Berlin Crisis? The two systems cannot co-exist. The war which would shrink/eliminate the capitalistic circle was inevitable. That was bound to happen regardless of the peaceful rhetoric.
    Капитализм и социализм здесь по большому счету ни при чем. Это борьба двух сверхдержав, и все.
    Ok, so the WWII started in the 1939. The UK and France fought with Germany. During that time the soviet people weren't that active to help the western countries. Strange, right?
    Какая разница? Советским людям во время войны было наплевать на начало Второй мировой, их это не касалось. К тому же Советский Союз и не говорил, что он будет помогать Франции и Англии сражаться с Германией.
    I think you're mixing up things here. I don't think those who started the "remodeling" have planned for the disintegration of the USSR. Also, people in general liked the idea of the USSR and disliked the nationalist sentiments of the late 80s which ultimately caused the disintegration. The whole thing was though to be more like the New Economic policy of the past, something that could revive the economics and make people more involved and interested. I'm not really sure that was a bad idea, it could work.
    Нет, именно это они и планировали. Я долго думал на эту тему и пришел к однозначному выводу: Горбачев - предатель, сознательно ведший страну к гибели.
    Why do you think that happened? Was there a reason, or people just went crazy altogether?
    Это идеологическое поражение сов. власти. Неэффективность пропаганды.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    It's interesting to hear that you don't see Russia as being dominating in the USSR. Most other people thought so.
    What about stars in the USSR ice hockey team, were they mostly Russian or other nationalities?
    There were no Russian domination in sport, if we talk about sport in general. If you google "Soviet (Olympic) champions", you'll see people of different ethnicities. Sometimes certain sports were dominated by people from certain republics (that probably depended on what sports were popular there due to cultural differences or climate). For example, wrestling champions were almost exclusively machos from Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Ossetia, etc. Ukrainians succeed in soccer, Russians in hockey, and so on.
    I remember from this time that people said, "blah, blah, blah Russians...." and teachers said "don't say Russians, say Soviets". It never really caught on though!
    Your teachers were smart.
    The USSR was a union of 15 ethnic republics, people of various backgrounds all mixed together. For example, in my school class we had loads of kids of mixed ethnicities, who were proud of their "ethnic" last names (Georgian/Armenian/Uzbeck/Arab/Korean/Karaim/Latvian and some others).
    One thing that seems strange though, is that USSR apparently marked in people's passport who was Jewish (why??!)
    Absolutely everyone had their ethnicities marked in passports, along with name, address and some other info. Jews were no different.
    If a child was of mixed ethnicity, parents could choose which ethnicity they prefer to "transfer" to their kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    If Nulle is the biggest Latvian nationalist on the forum (not much competition) then I think Marcus is the biggest Russian nationalist on the forum!!

    PS - what happened to the smiley with the red flag? That would have been more appropriate....
    The smiley with a rose always suits well. So, you congratulate me as a winner? Thank you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Капитализм и социализм здесь по большому счету ни при чем. Это борьба двух сверхдержав, и все.
    What do you think about the Berlin Crisis? People were fleeing from the Eastern side to the Western side. Was it because of the effective propaganda?
    You see, I agree with your point that the struggle of the two superpower had taken place. However, what I disagree is that the struggle had no previous history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Какая разница? Советским людям во время войны было наплевать на начало Второй мировой, их это не касалось.
    Not quite so. Do you remember that the WWII officially started with Germany invaded Poland? Ok, so the USSR had joined the WWII two weeks after that, remember? Then there was the war of 1940 with Finland. So, the soviet people weren't oblivious about the WWII. So, why the "westerners" weren't so eager to help the USSR, like they allegedly should? Because they are just too evil? What do you say? Even the extension of the lend-lease to the USSR was disputed by many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    К тому же Советский Союз и не говорил, что он будет помогать Франции и Англии сражаться с Германией.
    Exactly. Because in 1939 it helped Germany to fight Poland. So, could you blame France and the UK for not being too active helping the USSR? I think they simply did not know what to do with the USSR. Ideally, from their point of view, the USSR and Germany would weaken each other and thus be of the lesser future threat. Can you really blame them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Нет, именно это они и планировали. Я долго думал на эту тему и пришел к однозначному выводу: Горбачев - предатель, сознательно ведший страну к гибели.
    Ok, so let's assume you're right. So, what motivation did he have? And what did he win as a result of disintegration of the USSR? He was a Secretary General of the USSR. One of the wealthiest and mightiest people in the world. He had everything. Then, with a disintegration of the USSR he became just a person. What was his interest?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
    Это идеологическое поражение сов. власти. Неэффективность пропаганды.
    I would respectfully disagree. The propaganda was very effective. I'm not sure how old are you, but if I ask you a couple of the Soviet propaganda keywords you will remember right away. "Израильская военщина провела очередную карательную операцию?" "Самосовские головорезы?" "Фидель Кастро посетил Советский Союз с очередным дружественным визитом?" Does it ring the bells? Do you remember anything from the BBC in those days? And those who could really listen to the "Radio of Freedom" were really a minority. I couldn't. Were your parents able to catch the BBC programs if they wanted? Whose parents on this forum could listen to the BBC? Or were listening to the BBC? So, the Soviet propaganda was working hard and the western propaganda wasn't really getting to its audience. However, by the 80s people were experienced enough not to believe anything that comes from the government. Any idea why? Do you think people just were stupid?

  17. #57
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    Yes, I think Soviet union and Soviets were the politically correct expressions.
    I guess some people thought of themselves as "Soviets", but perhaps not all?
    Perhaps it would depend on how much they moved around, or their background.

    I have some relatives who are Estonian, but they lived in Leningrad in the 1980s. Now they are scattered all over. Somebody in that family told my sister that they felt they did not belong anywhere after the dissolving of the USSR. The problem was that although they were Estonians (of Swedish origin), they had grown up in Leningrad. But then after the USSR finished, they did not want to stay there, because the situation was bad and suddenly they did not belong. But then they felt strange being in Estonia and had problems fitting in there (not too sure of the details). So all the children apart from one promptly emigrated! I am not in touch with them - I don't know them very well and always had some communication problems (no language in common).

    Another example is the collegue I mention a few weeks ago. People keep thinking that he is Russian because he has a Russian name. But that pisses him off and he is apparently a Ukrainan - Estonian Jew! And he doesn't like Russia much. Both his parents were Soviet defectors who simply sneaked off while on trips to Sweden, and managed to get political asylum. (But life in Sweden did not work out very well for them, from what I would guess. He grew up in a bad area. It doesn't seem like he had a very good childhood. Sad! )
    But the situation gets tricky for him when he wants to explain his origins, which could probably be summarised as "Soviet". Poor chap doesn't even have a proper native tongue from his childhood, although his parents spoke Russian with each other until they divorced.

  18. #58
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    What do you think about the Berlin Crisis? People were fleeing from the Eastern side to the Western side. Was it because of the effective propaganda?
    You see, I agree with your point that the struggle of the two superpower had taken place. However, what I disagree is that the struggle had no previous history.
    Это было связано с тем, что ФРГ была богаче, целенаправленно проводила политику по переманиванию гдровцев, пропаганда тоже играла здесь роль. Немцы считали ФРГ Германией, а ГДР оккупированной территорией, хотя ФРГ была такая же оккупированная, как и ГДР.
    Not quite so. Do you remember that the WWII officially started with Germany invaded Poland? Ok, so the USSR had joined the WWII two weeks after that, remember? Then there was the war of 1940 with Finland. So, the soviet people weren't oblivious about the WWII. So, why the "westerners" weren't so eager to help the USSR, like they allegedly should? Because they are just too evil? What do you say? Even the extension of the lend-lease to the USSR was disputed by many.
    Не надо путать политику государств и настроения людей. Я говорил о последнем. США и Великобритания официально не помогали СССР, а боролись с Германией. Людям и казалось, что они борются недостаточно. Англия же не из-за СССР в войну с Германией вступила. Сейчас людей раздражает, что они всю победу приписывают себе.
    Ok, so let's assume you're right. So, what motivation did he have? And what did he win as a result of disintegration of the USSR? He was a Secretary General of the USSR. One of the wealthiest and mightiest people in the world. He had everything. Then, with a disintegration of the USSR he became just a person. What was his interest?
    Не знаю, но факт предательства очевиден. Наверное, он надеялся войти в мировое правительство.
    I would respectfully disagree. The propaganda was very effective. I'm not sure how old are you, but if I ask you a couple of the Soviet propaganda keywords you will remember right away. "Израильская военщина провела очередную карательную операцию?" "Самосовские головорезы?" "Фидель Кастро посетил Советский Союз с очередным дружественным визитом?" Does it ring the bells? Do you remember anything from the BBC in those days? And those who could really listen to the "Radio of Freedom" were really a minority. I couldn't. Were your parents able to catch the BBC programs if they wanted? Whose parents on this forum could listen to the BBC? Or were listening to the BBC? So, the Soviet propaganda was working hard and the western propaganda wasn't really getting to its audience. However, by the 80s people were experienced enough not to believe anything that comes from the government. Any idea why? Do you think people just were stupid?
    Я сказал, что пропаганда была неэффективной, а не то, что ее было мало. Она настраивала людей противоположным образом. Была слишком отдельной, а не встроенной незаметно во все, как на Западе. Воздействовала не на те части сознания, не учитывала настроений и потребностей людей.
    Это особенно видно в контрасте с нынешней пропагандой.

  19. #59
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    I g
    uess some people thought of themselves as "Soviets", but perhaps not all?
    I think most people in private life thought of themselves in terms of ethnicity (as Russians, Ukrainians, Georgians, etc.), but when it was about delegations, Olympic teams or international events the term that seamed appropriate was Soviet (because they were ethnically diverse).

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I can't help to wonder what Russian children are taught about this era?
    From a 11 grade history textbook by Левандовский и Щетинов (история России 20 век.)
    Начало Холодной войны:
    Начало «холодной войны». Потенциал сотрудничества, накопленный СССР и западными державами в годы совместной борьбы с фашизмом, с наступлением мира стал быстро улетучиваться.
    В выступлении бывшего премьер-министра Великобритании У. Черчилля в американском городе Фултоне (март 1946 г.), в послании к конгрессу президента США Г. Трумэна (февраль 1947 г.), а также в ряде конфиден-циальных документов были сформулированы две стратегические цели Запада по отношению к СССР. Перво-очередная: не допустить дальнейшего расширения сферы влияния СССР и его коммунистической идеологии (доктрина «сдерживания коммунизма»). Перспективная: оттеснить социалистическую систему к довоенным границам, а затем добиться ее ослабления и ликвидации в самой России (доктрина «отбрасывания коммуниз-ма»). При этом правящие круги США не скрывали намерений добиться мирового господства. «Победа,— от-крыто заявлял Трумэн,— поставила американский народ перед лицом постоянной и жгучей необходимости ру-ководства миром».
    СССР в свою очередь стремился как можно быстрее материализовать влияние на освобожденные Совет-ской Армией страны, подведя под него соответствующую политическую и экономическую базу. При этом И. В. Сталин питал надежду, что в условиях, когда на конференциях «большой тройки» был де-факто признан новый раздел мира на сферы интересов великих держав, ему удастся добиться своей цели без ухудшения отношений с западными партнерами, сохранив с ними взаимовыгодное сотрудничество. По мере того как эти надежды уле-тучивались, в Кремле формируется еще одна внешнеполитическая установка. Она никогда открыто не афиши-ровалась, но, судя по некоторым документам, занимала важное место в планах стареющего кремлевского дикта-тора. Он вынашивал мысль мобилизовать военно-экономическую мощь советского блока для распространения его влияния на новые регионы мира. Так, на секретном совещании в Кремле в январе 1951 г. И. В. Сталин зая-вил, что существует возможность «установить социализм по всей Европе» в течение «ближайших четырех лет» и что этой цели должна быть подчинена внешняя и внутренняя политика возглавляемых коммунистами «народ-но-демократических» стран. «У нас были свои надежды,— вспоминал позднее Н. С. Хрущев.— Так же как Рос-сия вышла из первой мировой войны, осуществила революцию и установила советскую власть, Европа тоже, пережив катастрофу второй мировой войны, может быть, станет советской. Все затем пошли бы по пути от ка-питализма к социализму. Сталин был убежден, что послевоенная Германия устроит революцию и создаст про-летарское государство... Все мы верили в это. У нас были такие же надежды в отношении Франции и Италии».
    Реализация намеченных бывшими союзниками внешнеполитических курсов, острие которых оказалось на-правленным друг против друга, за короткий срок до предела осложнила международную обстановку, ввергла мир в состояние «холодной войны» и гонки вооружений.

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