Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

(Интересно, Рамиль даже после этого замечательного диалога не увидит аналогий между гитлеровским Рейхом и путинской Россией?)

Слушай, а кто из ваших идеологов первым сделал этот вброс? Ваш охлос же моментально подхватывает "колорадских", "визитки Яроша" и т.п.
Про ваш любимый фашизм первым вякнул Шустер или кто-то до него?

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Слушай, а кто из ваших идеологов первым сделал этот вброс? Ваш охлос же моментально подхватывает "колорадских", "визитки Яроша" и т.п.
Про ваш любимый фашизм первым вякнул Шустер или кто-то до него?

Не знаю, как на Украине, а у нас, я помню, Шендерович ещё в начале олимпиады в Сочи кукарекал про рейх.

Одну корреспондентку таки вытащили.

Всё будет хорошо.

Ансамбль имени А.В. Александрова исполнил гимн «Вежливые люди»

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Одну корреспондентку таки вытащили.

Ок, ну и где она написала, что "ведущие" это имеено военные на службе Министерства обороны РФ? Упоминание кем-то неким, что "Там вообще сидит спецура?" Ты вот мой вброс про финна-начальника разведки военного штаба ЕС проигнорировал, а зря. По идее, когда крупные бюрократы ЕС принимают решения и действуют исходя из того, что на территории Украины находятся российские войска, они должны руководствоваться какой-то достоверной информацией. По идее, сначала они должны вызвать на доклад начальника разведки и перво-наперво уточнить этот момент, а уже потом действовать. А так получается странная картина: бюрократы знают, что в Украине российские войска, а начальник военной разведки - нет. Может, начальнику разведки самому спросить у бюрократов? Как ты считаешь?

Apparently a Kiev supporting politician was found DEAD, TORTURED in Eastern Ukraine.
That's really, really disturbing. Volodymyr Rybak. Plus more "tortured bodies". Am I reading propaganda or the truth?
Does anyone know anything about this?

Another thing I am reading is that the Donetsk republic has taken an American journalist called Simon Ostrovsky as their prisoner. What on earth for - why not just throw him off the territory if they don't want him there. It all seems really disturbing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Apparently a Kiev supporting politician was found DEAD, TORTURED in Eastern Ukraine.
That's really, really disturbing. Volodymyr Rybak. Plus more "tortured bodies". Am I reading propaganda or the truth?
Does anyone know anything about this?

Another thing I am reading is that the Donetsk republic has taken an American journalist called Simon Ostrovsky as their prisoner. What on earth for - why not just throw him off the territory if they don't want him there. It all seems really disturbing.

I now what I got from Internet sources (including local forums). Rybak participated in pro-Ukrainian meeting in Gorlovka ater several official buildings there were captured by greenies. Later he and several others approached the captured town hall and had a discussion with those guarding it. Then he was captured, here is the video. It happened at April 17. His cell phone was silent from that time. Yesterday his heavily tortured body was reported to be found in the river near Slaviansk (where the headquarters of greenies is) with one more body (unidentified).

There are at least several local (Kramatorsk and Slaviansk) people known to be catured, brought to Slaviansk and disappeared. Also there are few journalists and the actual mayor of Slaviansk Ms. Shtepa. Some captured people (including Shtepa) made some public announcement supporting their captors (written or on video) even though those announcements contradict their previous statements and activity. Still they are not let out.

The "people mayor" local guy Ponomariov (Afghanistan veteran) brought to power by greenies. Makes contradictory statements about killing accidents in Slaviansk and refuses to identify or give out to relatives bodies of the killed people. Ponomariov doesn't deny non-local nature of greenies and just says that "they came to help us". Yesterday night two bloggers reported the arrival to Slaviansk of three buses full of heavily armed greenies of non-slavic appearance (presumably Chechens).

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I now what I got from Internet sources (including local forums). Rybak participated in pro-Ukrainian meeting in Gorlovka ater several official buildings there were captured by greenies. Later he and several others approached the captured town hall and had a discussion with those guarding it. Then he was captured, here is the video. It happened at April 17. His cell phone was silent from that time. Yesterday his heavily tortured body was reported to be found in the river near Slaviansk (where the headquarters of greenies is) with one more body (unidentified).

There are at least several local (Kramatorsk and Slaviansk) people known to be catured, brought to Slaviansk and disappeared. Also there are few journalists and the actual mayor of Slaviansk Ms. Shtepa. Some captured people (including Shtepa) made some public announcement supporting their captors (written or on video) even though those announcements contradict their previous statements and activity. Still they are not let out.

The "people mayor" local guy Ponomariov (Afghanistan veteran) brought to power by greenies. Makes contradictory statements about killing accidents in Slaviansk and refuses to identify or give out to relatives bodies of the killed people. Ponomariov doesn't deny non-local nature of greenies and just says that "they came to help us". Yesterday night two bloggers reported the arrival to Slaviansk of three buses full of heavily armed greenies of non-slavic appearance (presumably Chechens).

Thanks for the summary. It sounds like these people have lost the perspective. I sympathise that they are angry about recent events in Kiev and trying to take matters into their own hands.

But this sounds out of control. Deliberately killing or torturing is far overstepping the mark. I thought these were normal people; civil servants and office workers. Not paramilitaries. Maybe this person got messed up in Afghanistan.
They are losing any moral credibility visavi nazis and others if they do things like that.
If they want rid of somebody they should just drive them out of town and warn them not to come back.

Maybe these people should look at moving to Russia instead of bringing Russia to them.... It doesn't sound like they have got the majority behind them, and if they are resorting to these types of methods people like me won't have any sympathy at all for them.

I think maybe Eastern Ukraine should just go it alone. Forget about Kiev, work with Russia, other Ukrainians, the EU etc on your own terms and speak Russian. There are several million people there, right? That's large enough for a successful country. All the nicest countries in Europe are below 10 million. Eastern Ukraine has mines, industry and farmland. I think it might work and it ends the madness in Ukraine once and for all. If the Scots can do it....

Oh, come on! Cui bono? Whose propaganda will benefit from a totured and then murdered Kiev supporter in Eastern Ukraine?
What was the motive behind this murder and who had it? Oh, I can admit that Rybak could end up with a broken nose or a few missing teeth.
It is quite obvious (to me, at the very least) that such things like torture and murder can only happen if there was some serious reason to do so. I failt to see any except for arranging a provocation.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Oh, come on! Cui bono? Whose propaganda will benefit from a totured and then murdered Kiev supporter in Eastern Ukraine?
What was the motive behind this murder and who had it? Oh, I can admit that Rybak could end up with a broken nose or a few missing teeth.
It is quite obvious (to me, at the very least) that such things like torture and murder can only happen if there was some serious reason to do so. I failt to see any except for arranging a provocation.

Yes, that occurred to me while I was writing and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a really dirty trick was pulled in this conflict. The leaflet to the Jews, for example. So silly it's insane. But reported as a fact in Western European media. Despite the fact that it's the other side that have actual Nazis on it.

So if that is the case, then the separatists have to find some proof that they are innocent asap! Someone killed him and if they reckon they are in charge they should not let anyone get assasinated, or assasinate anyone themselves!
They should start their own investigation, make a statement to condemn and deny and if it turns out it's somebody from their side, just hand him over to the police in Kiev.
If this is methods they think are acceptable, then they definitely lose any sympathy from me. It's one thing if somebody who god involved fully informed is killed by accident. But torturing and executing people - that's terrorism..

And if it's a setup, then it's the second time (possibly) that people are killed in a false flag operation in this conflict, with the the first time being the snipers on Maidan. Robert Ludlum wouldn't have been able to come up with this scenario if he was on LSD. It's so insane!

Problem is, media in Western Europe only reports the blackpainting (if that is what it is).
They never bother to report that it was faked or a black ops. Or if they do, it's not in the main headline.

So as far as the average European is concerned, who try to follow this in a language they can understand, The Eastern Ukrainian separatists are Jew hating, torturing murderers and Putin is leading the whole thing behind the scene and just waiting to invade..... Or he's just doing it because he's an evil gay hating dictator....

Like I said before, welcome to Cold War 2.0 the digital edition.

It is quite obvious (to me, at the very least) that such things like torture and murder can only happen if there was some serious reason to do so. I failt to see any except for arranging a provocation.

oh, now that will be of great comfort to Rybak; alternatively just blame the victim. sometimes it does help not to feverishly believe one storyline

Originally Posted by eisenherz

oh, now that will be of great comfort to Rybak; alternatively just blame the victim. sometimes it does help not to feverishly believe one storyline

The question was: who and why murdered him? Were it pro-Russian separatists whose hatred to all civilized people is very-well known? Or, perhaps, it was Russian intelligence officers who saw a great danger for their devious invasion plans in Rybak's continued living? Perhaps, it was Putin himself who secretly travelled to meet Rybak and then killed him in cold blood. Who knows, who knows. All these theories seem valid.

I find it somehow odd that only in Slavyansk the struggle went really dirty. The so-called "people's mayor" of Slavyansk is totally a black horse. Compare the "people's mayor" of Slavyansk:

971971_3.jpg

With the real people's mayor of Sevastopol:

chalij.jpg

To the best of my knowledge, the latter had never prosecuted or called for prosecution of anybody. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Ну, в какой-то мере я согласен, что по "морде лица" можно судить о человеке... но всё-таки какой-то это несерьёзный аргумент. Тут можно привести так же честное лицо мэра Харькова или доброе и. о. президента Украины.

It's kind of interesting how they are proclaiming "people's republics" and "people's mayors".
It echoes a bit of you-know-what, doesn't it?

I can't help admiring the guts of people to pull something like this off. The revolution in Kiev too, even if they got help from abroad.
If people in Western Europe got seriously oppressed, nobody would quite know what to do, and probably end up doing nothing or just rallying around on the street and getting shot at with water cannons and dum-dum bullets, or getting arrested.

But lots of people in the ex USSR have the ideology down, don't they - and they know the recipe to raise up, get organised and do something. Many of them are risking everything. It's brave.

Frankly we could learn a lot... It's probably a matter of time until most Western European countries are nothing but a parody of democracy. How many revolutions have Ukrainians been through in their lifetimes by now...

Any way I hope it doesn't turn into some kind of nasty "dictatorship of the pro.... Russians".
They need to find out the truth about what happened to Rybak and the others, quickly.

When people protest in the West they do exactly that - they simply protest. They are not rebelling against the government. Even in London in 2011 there was no rebellion - just riots and vandalism. A rebellion can not happen out of nothing. Planning makes a difference. A riot can occur incidentally, but with a rebellion - someone has to design it, plan it and carry it out.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Ну, в какой-то мере я согласен, что по "морде лица" можно судить о человеке... но всё-таки какой-то это несерьёзный аргумент. Тут можно привести так же честное лицо мэра Харькова или доброе и. о. президента Украины.

А всё-таки физиогномику никто не отменял. Тебе, например, всё равно с кем из этих двух иметь дело? Это первое.

Второе. (Я уже начал говорить почти как Путин. Вот до чего доводит чтение стенограмм. )

Дела, дела, дела. Погромы цыган, преследования инакомыслящих, ограничения на журналистов, мутная история с предыдущим мэром и т.п.

Какая-то тёмная лавочка, короче. Если бы он, хотя бы назвался "народным комендантом" и руководил боями с оружием наперевес, я бы это понял. А, допустим, зачистка города от наркотиков и задержание журналистов абсолютно не входит в его полномочия. Чалый такими вещами не баловался.

Смею предположить, что "зелёным" абсолютно до фени, кому передавать захваченные ими объекты. Назвался самообороной - вот тебе здание, дорогой. Дальше - сам.

Originally Posted by Ramil

When people protest in the West they do exactly that - they simply protest. They are not rebelling against the government. Even in London in 2011 there was no rebellion - just riots and vandalism. A rebellion can not happen out of nothing. Planning makes a difference. A riot can occur incidentally, but with a rebellion - someone has to design it, plan it and carry it out.

Loved this comment, and you are completely right. Not that Ukrainians/Russians are some gurus who always get it right... but you have considerably more knowledge on radical transformation of societies than anyone in Western Europe or the USA. Both theoretical, practical and technical.

Too right about the UK riots. There are some very good reasons to rise up against the state here. They are selling off public welfare to the highest bidder, the poor getting so poor they can't afford food and heating, and billionaires increasing every year. But the riots like you said, just people wanting to fight and grab a free plasma TV. The modern opium of the people. That was an opportunity lost, and they certainly have done everything they can to maker sure riots like this can never even start again.

If Ukraine had the anti-riot laws and technical equipment + surveillance that the UK has, then Euromaidan could perhaps NEVER even have started. The UK would have reacted much more aggressively, faster and with more force than the "evil dictator" Yanukovich did. That's a fact and everyone in the UK knows it.

The French are always blocking motorways with lorries, striking in the metro, ports and what not. But the last time they had a revolution was 1789...

And Americans seem to believe that as long as you legally own a gun a car and have access to affordable petrol, you are a free man. That's the only things you can complain about, otherwise you are an evil caammunist and possibly terrorist.... So there will probably never be a revolution there. I think they'll wake up one morning in the not-so-distant future and have to face the reality that their much hyped "democracy" and "freedom" is a hoax and they are trapped as modern slaves in a fascist dictatorship.

In Sweden any sense of rebellion against REAL authority is removed from people's DNA at birth or in state daycare, in the cosy people's state... "If the state does it, it's automatically right, because the state is always good and only wants what's best for people!" Never mind that they contradict themselves and change the tune all the time. Rebelling against the headmaster in a school, patriarchy, or a boss at work - sure, very cool. But not against the real powers that make the big decisions.

I hope all groups that are revolutionary in a positive sense keep an eye on what's happening in Ukraine and actually learn from it. There is something to learn from the Arab springs too.

The way things are going, that type of knowledge can come in quite handy 10-20 years from now when the big brother corporate fascist state will be fait accompli (I believe...)

I just wonder - are there smart people in Moscow (or Washington) who are masterminding events in Ukraine, or is it genuine people's power?
I think it's a mix/symbiosis.

Originally Posted by Hanna

...But lots of people in the ex USSR have the ideology down, don't they - and they know the recipe to raise up, get organised and do something. Many of them are risking everything. It's brave.....

agreed, but they are by no means the only ones; others were brave, raised up and risked everything too; eg Tunesia, Egypt, Lybia, Syria, Rwanda, DRC Congo, Srilanka, even in Europe eg Serbia-Croatia-Bosnia Herzigovina = though some of them with horrendous consequences

Originally Posted by Hanna

I just wonder - are there smart people in Moscow (or Washington) who are masterminding events in Ukraine, or is it genuine people's power?
I think it's a mix/symbiosis.

We don't really know what is happening. All we know there are well-organized squads and somehow-organized activists. There seems to be an indisputable position in the West that the well-organized squads are Russian troops. I'm wondering is there a proof for that. For example:

Originally Posted by voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_15/EU-military-intelligence-chief-rules-out-Russia-s-involvement-in-Ukraine-events-1955

Commodore Georgij Alafuzoff, in charge of EU military intelligence, is feeling skeptical about Russian army's involvement in Ukraine’s recent developments, as reported by Finnish Yle broadcaster. As he points out, the protests in Ukraine are mostly centered around local Russian speaking public, deeply disappointed with the situation in the country.

More specifically, that is not exactly what Chief of the EU military intelligence said according to the Yle's website, so try to read the Russian version of it: Глава разведки ЕС: Продвижение на Украину не в интересах

He does not "feel skeptical" but literary said: "there is no proof". Huge difference for the intelligence. So, I am wondering where that indisputable position of the West had come from? The way it should be, I think, is first a EU bureaucrat gets a report from the EU intelligence: "Russian troops are in the Eastern Ukraine", and then the bureaucrats have a series of meetings to decide how to address that, and then they issue the media statements to convince the public of their planned way, and then they act. No bureaucrat wants to be responsible for anything, he would always need a paper to refer to in case his butt comes under fire. So, if the Chief of intelligence does not know for sure and the EU bureaucrats know for sure, maybe the Chief of intelligence should learn from the bureaucrats? If the bureaucrats know the situation better than the intelligence, then the intelligence is a useless organization which should be deprived of the funding and dissolved, won't you think?

Unfortunately, you can only find that info on Yle's website or RT and the Voice of Russia. The other Western media do not seem interested in distributing that information. I guess, they don't think it's important info for the public. Indeed, some Chief of Intelligence of EU said something about the missing proof.. who cares? Who needs the military intelligence anyway?