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Thread: How do you say "The sacrifice of hiding in a lie" in Russian?

  1. #21
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    I am afraid I missed completely logical connection between sacrificing and optimism.

    ----------------
    offtop: Why do usually someone want to say an aphorism in foreign language? Normally it is a good idea when that language fits that aphorism best, that is when it is a native phrase for that language and keeps its spirit. So, here is an advice: if you want a good phrase in Russian, find it in Russian sources, not translate.

    Russian is absolutely not the best language for the straightforward moralizing, BTW.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  2. #22
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    To it-ogo:
    I absolutely agree with you. Though my knowledge of Russian isn't as advanced as yours, I still understand that English to Russian translations can be a complete mess.
    And that's exactly the case here.

    Russian is absolutely not the best language for the straightforward moralizing, BTW.
    It's almost as if that's TOO true. ;O


    To Demonic_Duck:
    Is the "sacrificing" the sacrificing of your own soul by becoming tainted by this lie?
    That's essentially the main idea.
    I would only add that it's also about living a life worth living; living with meaning; not wasting ones life in a lie; understanding how lies and lieing to yourself affects your life.
    "The sacrifice of hiding in a lie" refers to you losing your ability to live a meaningful life becase you are lieing to yourself and/or actually living a lie. Which can double as a reminder: to live life the way you know you should; to live life to its fullest.


    To any and all:
    As for the meaning behind my entire investigation behind all of this would be that I am planning on getting a tattoo of what Im talking about.
    All I want is one tattoo. I want it to be in my own Russian cursive and to be of something that means a lot to me.
    A few months after my friend Алина started teaching me Russian (and how to write in cursive too) I thought "I finally know exactly what I want my tattoo to be".
    (still... jut like in English, im positive there are sayings in Russian that describe "ones efforts being futile" or "somebody doing something even though there's no possibility of success" in some form or fashion) :\


    Nevertheless, thanks for the help! (... and Im sure трудно would be a prefect word to describe me)

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    Why do usually someone want to say an aphorism in foreign language? Normally it is a good idea when that language fits that aphorism best, that is when it is a native phrase for that language and keeps its spirit. So, here is an advice: if you want a good phrase in Russian, find it in Russian sources, not translate.
    Taking into account all similar threads here the answer is that people like to make a tattoo in a language nobody around can understand. If the people around were able to see and read the tattoo they would do it automatically and would not pay a lot of attention to it. But if the tattoo were in an unknown language they would stumble upon it and ask the question "What does it mean?" If it were a real Russian saying the direct translation to English would be clumsy and fail the purpose to amuse the person seeing the tattoo. But if the tattoo were in clumsy Russian it translation would turn into highly poetical English saying and makes the WOW factor for the person seeing the tattoo.
    So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeCup View Post
    Taking into account all similar threads here the answer is that people like to make a tattoo in a language nobody around can understand. If the people around were able to see and read the tattoo they would do it automatically and would not pay a lot of attention to it. But if the tattoo were in an unknown language they would stumble upon it and ask the question "What does it mean?" If it were a real Russian saying the direct translation to English would be clumsy and fail the purpose to amuse the person seeing the tattoo. But if the tattoo were in clumsy Russian it translation would turn into highly poetical English saying and makes the WOW factor for the person seeing the tattoo.
    That's a good point, one I've thought about a lot and been told about quite a few times. Though I've been finding it hard to research my ideas and get direct Russian results rather than trying to force the translation of my English words into Russian words.
    Regardless, I'll still keep trying to find something I can work with.

  5. #25
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Here is a classical quotation from Chekhov:
    "Тля ест траву, ржа - железо, а лжа - душу"

    Literally: Aphid eats/cankers/corrodes grass, rust - iron, lie - soul.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  6. #26
    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoffeeCup View Post
    Taking into account all similar threads here the answer is that people like to make a tattoo in a language nobody around can understand. If the people around were able to see and read the tattoo they would do it automatically and would not pay a lot of attention to it. But if the tattoo were in an unknown language they would stumble upon it and ask the question "What does it mean?" If it were a real Russian saying the direct translation to English would be clumsy and fail the purpose to amuse the person seeing the tattoo. But if the tattoo were in clumsy Russian it translation would turn into highly poetical English saying and makes the WOW factor for the person seeing the tattoo.
    On the contrary, if I was going to get a tattoo of any foreign language, I'd prefer it to be poetic and beautiful in that original language, even if it was somewhat clumsy in English. Besides, it's always possible to translate idiomatically, which makes the English translation sound natural and fluent. If the translation includes something specific and essential to the culture which speaks that particular language, that only adds more layers of meaning and leads to a more interesting story.

    Besides, people often desire authenticity in their tattoos. If someone has a tattoo of a Chinese symbol that means "supermarket", they (and their non-Chinese friends) won't know the difference from the symbol that means "spirituality". But 99% of people would still choose the tattoo meaning "spirituality", even if it looked less nice than the one meaning "supermarket". Why? Because they want it to be authentic. (Of course this may not apply to you, OceanEyes, I'm not one to tell you what is the best tattoo for you. That's something personal. And I'm not one to talk anyway, the only tattoo I have has no deeper meaning than my favourite band!)

    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Here is a classical quotation from Chekhov:
    "Тля ест траву, ржа - железо, а лжа - душу"

    Literally: Aphid eats/cankers/corrodes grass, rust - iron, lie - soul.
    Sounds like straightforward moralising to me

    Also why is it «лжа»? I can't see that in the declensions of «ложь»...
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    On the contrary, if I was going to get a tattoo of any foreign language, I'd prefer it to be poetic and beautiful in that original language, even if it was somewhat clumsy in English. Besides, it's always possible to translate idiomatically, which makes the English translation sound natural and fluent. If the translation includes something specific and essential to the culture which speaks that particular language, that only adds more layers of meaning and leads to a more interesting story.

    Besides, people often desire authenticity in their tattoos. If someone has a tattoo of a Chinese symbol that means "supermarket", they (and their non-Chinese friends) won't know the difference from the symbol that means "spirituality". But 99% of people would still choose the tattoo meaning "spirituality", even if it looked less nice than the one meaning "supermarket". Why? Because they want it to be authentic. (Of course this may not apply to you, OceanEyes, I'm not one to tell you what is the best tattoo for you. That's something personal. And I'm not one to talk anyway, the only tattoo I have has no deeper meaning than my favourite band!)
    You're a thinker. :]
    You make a few good points. Having it in Russian has its own good characteristics and having it in English has it's own good characteristics too.
    Over the course of several months I've been weighing my options, and I seem to be coming back to "Ya, I should probably do it in English" more than I would like to admit.
    But still, using Russian (especially cursive) is a better idea to me because Russian is different to me (and to 99.87% of the people around me), and Russian cursive has always been it's very own art form to me. I love the uniqueness... That's when I have to factor in "not necessarily being able to convey what I want to convey in Russian".

    In the end, I'll either end up being able to find the right set of words that I can work with or.. I wont end up being able to find the right set of words that I can work with.

  8. #28
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck View Post
    Sounds like straightforward moralising to me
    As a first approach - yeah, but as usual with classical quotations there is much more behind if one knows the source. It was not by Chekhov directly but by his fictitious hero.

    BTW Most well-known collection of moralizing in Russian classic literature often can be found on humor sites. Warning: no way of adequate translation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Demonic_Duck View Post
    Also why is it «лжа»? I can't see that in the declensions of «ложь»...
    That fictitious hero found that it sounds better. More aphoristic. Тля-ржа-лжа is a kind of rhyme.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Here's another one of my attempts:
    "погружённый в ложи, я не могу жить с собой"


    возможно... ?

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    Nope.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by OceanEyes View Post
    ложи
    There's such word as "ложе" (old form/archaism of "bed"). "Ложи" is a plural "ложе" (but i never met "ложе" used in plural form).
    And "masonic lodge" is "массонская ложа" (so, "lodges" -> "ложи").

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    That was just me putting ложь into the wrong plural. :]
    I didnt want to stick with the singular, and instead I wanted to use "lies".
    What would be the correct plural? "лежит"?

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    Почтенный гражданин Demonic_Duck's Avatar
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    ложь - Wiktionary

    Has all the declensions.
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    In spite of what Wiktionary says ложь has no plural. It’s hard to say why but there are some, if not many, words in Russian that lack a number of their forms. It can sometimes be almost annoying, but on the other hand using the wrong imaginary forms may produce comic effect like, for instance, in this sentence "погружённый в ложи, я не могу жить с собой"

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post


    That fictitious hero found that it sounds better. More aphoristic. Тля-ржа-лжа is a kind of rhyme.

    It turns out there was the old archaic form "лжа" (Намеренное искажение истины; неправда, ложь.). It existed in Old Russian, here is the link:

    лжа

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    In spite of what Wiktionary says ложь has no plural. It’s hard to say why but there are some, if not many, words in Russian that lack a number of their forms.
    Would it then be best to stick with "погружённый в ложь, я не могу жить с собой" where ложь is just understood as lies?

    Immersed in a lie...
    Immersed in lies...

  17. #37
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    wouldn't it be в лжи anyway = prepositional case?
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    ...ложь is just understood as lies?
    I think they are one and the same, completely identical to each other.
    wouldn't it be в лжи anyway = prepositional case?
    No way! Don’t even think about it!
    Well, it might look something like that in a similar sentence, say: спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с самим собой, but note the additional o in во лжи. I don’t know if they teach you this in grammar books, but we add the "o" to make the sound flow. Without it it’s almost a tongue-twister whereas in в грязи, for example, your в sounds just fine, all in accordance with the rule you may have made your assumption on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexB View Post
    I think they are one and the same, completely identical to each other.
    Fantastic! I believe I've (maybe) found the right words to use. :]

    So then "погружённый во лжи, я не могу жить с собой" can be read as "Immersed in lies, I cannot live with myself"?
    Also, "спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с самим собой" can be read as "Hiding in a lie, I cannot be at peace with myself"?
    alexB, is "самим" absolutely necessary? Could I say "спрятавшись во лжи, я не могу быть в мире с собой"?

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    Would it then be best to stick with...
    wouldn't it be...
    Sorry, couldn’t help but remember:
    "Professor, without knowing precisely what the danger is, would you say it's time for our viewers to crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?"
    "Yes I would, Kent." .

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